Why do some pros advocate strong grip???

I'm just coming back into the swing of things as I took about a year off from playing. One thing I forgot was the proper grip or rather, the neutral grip. I recently got a lesson from a pro who advocated a rather strong grip with three knuckles showing from my vantage point. He says my grip was too neutral and I needed to "work my way back" to properly release the club. During the first couple of rounds it worked fine. But, as my flexibility came back and I started releasing my clubs like I used to, I started having pull hooks. I checked my plane, stance, set up, ball position. All just fine.

then, it occurred to me that my grip was quite strong. As soon as I switched back to the two knuckles visible with left thumb down the top of the shaft I started hitting neutral shots. Heck, even my hybrids didn't go left.

My question:

Why do some pros advocate a strong grip??? In fact, I see many different websites that advocate a strong grip. And how to some tour pros make the strong grip work? do they not release?

For me, it's literally the last micro seconds during release that increases my head speed. Otherwise, I don't really get much distance or power into the swing at all.

The pros don't consciously use their hands and certainly don't consciously use them for speed. If you need you hands to create speed, issue lies somewhere other than your grip.

Different grip types work with different swing patterns. Matching grip to pattern so no conscious hand action is needed is the important thing. There is no ONE grip that works for everyone.

Teach says "The pros don't consciously use their hands and certainly don't consciously use them for speed." Lets examine this a bit.

First, is this even true? Is it actually the case that none of "the pros" consciously use their hands to create speed? If it is true how could anyone know that its true without and intimate knowledge of every one of "the pros", what they use their hands for, and what they are doing consciously. Seems like a pretty bold generalization about what "the pros" do.

The more important point though is if we knew that no pro used his hands to create speed would that dictate what should be taught to a fellow who is not a pro, never wants to be a pro, lacks the talent, fitness and practice time of a pro and really just wants to play a bit better on Saturday with his friends. Why is there no general improvement in the quality of golf played by the vast majority of golfers? Could it be because teachers are trying to teach the not very athletic fellow who spends 40 hours a week behind a desk and can't spare more than an hour or two per week for practice to swing like a pro?

This is not directed just at Teach, or even primarily. I consider it unfortunate however that a major criteria for determining who is and who isn't a good teacher is what elite players they have taught. That Foley by way of example can get Tiger's game to the top level says very little about what he can do for an average golfer.

Steve

I said consciously. Any conscious thoughts, especially late in the downswing, are ill advised to play good golf. I have worked with a lot of pros but obviously not all. I do know a little about how we perform best, which is in our subconscious. With the downswing taking less than 0.3 seconds I'd bet a good bit that those guys playing well don't have conscious thoughts through the ball. In fact I define choking as, when a player tries to teach himself something he already knows how to do. In other words consciously trying to do something he subconciously does.

I didn't say the hands don't produce speed. I only brought up pros because he asked. Going from a two knuckle grip to a three knuckle grip shouldn't cause pull hooks.

Btw I'm pretty sure my results with average golfers are as good as mine with tour players, and if anything much better.

I've heard some Pros advocate a strong grip because they usually are better ball strikers. I'm not saying this is my idea at all but I have heard this said and read it online before.

Also I think Iteach record with average golfers can compete with any "top" instructor in the world.

[quote name='MellonC' timestamp='1364939152' post='6746881']
I'm just coming back into the swing of things as I took about a year off from playing. One thing I forgot was the proper grip or rather, the neutral grip. I recently got a lesson from a pro who advocated a rather strong grip with three knuckles showing from my vantage point. He says my grip was too neutral and I needed to "work my way back" to properly release the club. During the first couple of rounds it worked fine. But, as my flexibility came back and I started releasing my clubs like I used to, I started having pull hooks. I checked my plane, stance, set up, ball position. All just fine.

then, it occurred to me that my grip was quite strong. As soon as I switched back to the two knuckles visible with left thumb down the top of the shaft I started hitting neutral shots. Heck, even my hybrids didn't go left.

My question:

Why do some pros advocate a strong grip??? In fact, I see many different websites that advocate a strong grip. And how to some tour pros make the strong grip work? do they not release?

For me, it's literally the last micro seconds during release that increases my head speed. Otherwise, I don't really get much distance or power into the swing at all.
[/quote]

Most touring Pro's favor a more neutral grip, and so do I. Teaching pros are another topic; they are trying to get golfers to release. IMO too many knuckles translates to excessively fast release when going after it, .. ball go left, least for me. If a person develops a resistance to fast rollover, possibly has their clubs/grips setup to assist, and still realizes power, strong grip is fine, otherwise people will struggle with face angle at impact.

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1364939943' post='6746965']
Different grip types work with different swing patterns. Matching grip to pattern so no conscious hand action is needed is the important thing. There is no ONE grip that works for everyone.
[/quote]

Ill add that rather than nit pick the first part of my post, I think this is the part that actually matters. And goes towards Steve's question about teaching various groups of people

http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-09-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-2.html

This would indicate most guys on tour favor a grip considered strong.

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1364943929' post='6747367']
Teach says "The pros don't consciously use their hands and certainly don't consciously use them for speed." Lets examine this a bit.

First, is this even true? Is it actually the case that none of "the pros" consciously use their hands to create speed? If it is true how could anyone know that its true without and intimate knowledge of every one of "the pros", what they use their hands for, and what they are doing consciously. Seems like a pretty bold generalization about what "the pros" do.

The more important point though is if we knew that no pro used his hands to create speed would that dictate what should be taught to a fellow who is not a pro, never wants to be a pro, lacks the talent, fitness and practice time of a pro and really just wants to play a bit better on Saturday with his friends. Why is there no general improvement in the quality of golf played by the vast majority of golfers? Could it be because teachers are trying to teach the not very athletic fellow who spends 40 hours a week behind a desk and can't spare more than an hour or two per week for practice to swing like a pro?

This is not directed just at Teach, or even primarily. I consider it unfortunate however that a major criteria for determining who is and who isn't a good teacher is what elite players they have taught. That Foley by way of example can get Tiger's game to the top level says very little about what he can do for an average golfer.

Steve
[/quote]

So if I work backwards from your generalized indictment of teaching pros, to the original point, can you set out the circumstances under which you believe the hands should consciously be used by an amateur to create speed in the golf swing and how to accomplish that?

[quote name='bell812' timestamp='1364949574' post='6747929']
http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-09-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-2.html

This would indicate most guys on tour favor a grip considered strong.
[/quote]

I read these articles about 2 weeks ago and was impressed that most tour player's grips are on the strongish side. I guess if you have a weak pivot then you will hit hooks with a real strong grip but if the pivot is working properly the ball should go pretty straight. Most tour pros have a good pivot. I read somewhere that one of the main differences in swings between a scratch golfer and a tour pro is the pros start rotating there hips on the downswing 1-4/30ths of a second before they pull the club with their arms. Maybe this is the reason that tour pros can use strong grips and not have a hookfest.

Why do teachers advocate a strong grip? Because the vast majority of golfers struggle to return the clubface back at impact to its address alignment.

The grip is largely misunderstood by players and teachers alike. We are told that a strong grip promotes a hook. Yet, of the countless great players who used a strong grip, none are really known for fighting a hook.

Major winners who use a strong grip: Jones, Trevino, Couples, Langer, Azinger, Duval, Daly, Zack Johnson, Bubba Watson.
Future major winners: Nick Watney, Dustin Johnson

Show me a LDA guy without a strong grip. The support for it just goes on and on.

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1364943929' post='6747367']
Teach says "The pros don't consciously use their hands and certainly don't consciously use them for speed." Lets examine this a bit.

First, is this even true? Is it actually the case that none of "the pros" consciously use their hands to create speed? If it is true how could anyone know that its true without and intimate knowledge of every one of "the pros", what they use their hands for, and what they are doing consciously. Seems like a pretty bold generalization about what "the pros" do.

The more important point though is if we knew that no pro used his hands to create speed would that dictate what should be taught to a fellow who is not a pro, never wants to be a pro, lacks the talent, fitness and practice time of a pro and really just wants to play a bit better on Saturday with his friends. Why is there no general improvement in the quality of golf played by the vast majority of golfers? Could it be because teachers are trying to teach the not very athletic fellow who spends 40 hours a week behind a desk and can't spare more than an hour or two per week for practice to swing like a pro?

This is not directed just at Teach, or even primarily. I consider it unfortunate however that a major criteria for determining who is and who isn't a good teacher is what elite players they have taught. That Foley by way of example can get Tiger's game to the top level says very little about what he can do for an average golfer.

Steve
[/quote]

I would think that trying to teach amateurs that don't get to play or practice very often to use a move that requires precision timing to perform properly is going to cause more problems that it solves.

so I guess I have the "flipping" style impact. My friends, who look at my swing, call it "slapping." They say, I look like I slap the $hito out of the ball when I am hitting well.

Now I am all concerned that this flipping thing may be a bad thing. I thought a flip is the same as a proper release.....

Strong is a relative term. I don't really like using strong and weak anymore with students (although I do here at Golfwrx as a point of reference). Neutral being a standard makes about as much sense as saying you are supposed to backswing to parallel.

Point is, do what lines the body up in a way that makes you swing the way you want to swing. That will be different for everyone.

All that being the case, I find most people align their shoulders at address properly and have less tendency to steepen the club in transition with what would be considered a strong grip.

Apparently, it has something to do with the way your arms hang naturally. If you allow your arms to hang down (without a club), you will notice that your hands are positioned in a precise 'rotation' - some will be closed (3 knuckles or more), some will be neutral. This is determined by the rotation of the shoulder blades.

Also, I think a one plane swing will need to have the left thumb more round (closed, slightly to right of centre) the shaft to align underneath the shaft at the top of the swing. I'm not sure about two planers (as im 1 plane) but i would guess that a more vertical shaft plane wouldn't need the thumb so far round. Just an idea.

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1364943929' post='6747367']
Teach says "The pros don't consciously use their hands and certainly don't consciously use them for speed." Lets examine this a bit.

First, is this even true? Is it actually the case that none of "the pros" consciously use their hands to create speed? If it is true how could anyone know that its true without and intimate knowledge of every one of "the pros", what they use their hands for, and what they are doing consciously. Seems like a pretty bold generalization about what "the pros" do.

The more important point though is if we knew that no pro used his hands to create speed would that dictate what should be taught to a fellow who is not a pro, never wants to be a pro, lacks the talent, fitness and practice time of a pro and really just wants to play a bit better on Saturday with his friends. Why is there no general improvement in the quality of golf played by the vast majority of golfers? Could it be because teachers are trying to teach the not very athletic fellow who spends 40 hours a week behind a desk and can't spare more than an hour or two per week for practice to swing like a pro?

This is not directed just at Teach, or even primarily. I consider it unfortunate however that a major criteria for determining who is and who isn't a good teacher is what elite players they have taught. That Foley by way of example can get Tiger's game to the top level says very little about what he can do for an average golfer.

Steve
[/quote]

So your question is why don't teachers just start teaching average golfers to throw their hands at the ball, do whatever feels good, and and even flip at it to try to add speed because they don't have the time to practice and learn to swing correctly? What's the point in going to see a teacher? Dan has stated many times that he prides himself on teaching all golfers and not just pros. So I think you are the one that's hung up on the fact that he teaches pros, Dan is not. When someone states "that's how pros do it" it isn't them boasting about teaching pros. It is because pros are the best golfers in the world, so they are a good model to copy. Just because someone doesn't have 40 hrs a week to practice doesn't mean that a good teacher can't teach them to swing correctly.

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1364945950' post='6747549']
[quote name='MellonC' timestamp='1364939152' post='6746881']
I'm just coming back into the swing of things as I took about a year off from playing. One thing I forgot was the proper grip or rather, the neutral grip. I recently got a lesson from a pro who advocated a rather strong grip with three knuckles showing from my vantage point. He says my grip was too neutral and I needed to "work my way back" to properly release the club. During the first couple of rounds it worked fine. But, as my flexibility came back and I started releasing my clubs like I used to, I started having pull hooks. I checked my plane, stance, set up, ball position. All just fine.

then, it occurred to me that my grip was quite strong. As soon as I switched back to the two knuckles visible with left thumb down the top of the shaft I started hitting neutral shots. Heck, even my hybrids didn't go left.

My question:

Why do some pros advocate a strong grip??? In fact, I see many different websites that advocate a strong grip. And how to some tour pros make the strong grip work? do they not release?

For me, it's literally the last micro seconds during release that increases my head speed. Otherwise, I don't really get much distance or power into the swing at all.
[/quote]

Most touring Pro's favor a more neutral grip, and so do I. Teaching pros are another topic; they are trying to get golfers to release. IMO too many knuckles translates to excessively fast release when going after it, .. ball go left, least for me. If a person develops a resistance to fast rollover, possibly has their clubs/grips setup to assist, and still realizes power, strong grip is fine, otherwise people will struggle with face angle at impact.
[/quote]

A stronger grip does not allow you to "release your hands faster" does it? A strong grip is for people who DON'T release it as they have less work to do with the hands to square the club face. I beleive this is the idea behind one planers (don't bring Ben Hogan into this bc he was the ONLY one who didn't) having stronger grips. More body rotation = less time to square it with hands.

[quote name='MellonC' timestamp='1364939152' post='6746881']
I'm just coming back into the swing of things as I took about a year off from playing. One thing I forgot was the proper grip or rather, the neutral grip. I recently got a lesson from a pro who advocated a rather strong grip with three knuckles showing from my vantage point. He says my grip was too neutral and I needed to "work my way back" to properly release the club. During the first couple of rounds it worked fine. But, as my flexibility came back and I started releasing my clubs like I used to, I started having pull hooks. I checked my plane, stance, set up, ball position. All just fine.

then, it occurred to me that my grip was quite strong. As soon as I switched back to the two knuckles visible with left thumb down the top of the shaft I started hitting neutral shots. Heck, even my hybrids didn't go left.

My question:

Why do some pros advocate a strong grip??? In fact, I see many different websites that advocate a strong grip. And how to some tour pros make the strong grip work? do they not release?

For me, it's literally the last micro seconds during release that increases my head speed. Otherwise, I don't really get much distance or power into the swing at all.
[/quote]

Is the pro trying to teach you a specific way of swinging the club or was he trying to improve your impact positions during the lesson? I think both would be valid reasons for promoting a stronger grip as you said yourself it was working until your swing changed back to how you used to release it!

I play with a stronger grip that I'm trying to get more neutral because a. - I hate missing left and b.- I feel it hurts me around the green. I have trouble getting chips in the air.

When I get handsy- which I am assuming the OP was doing, I got to a strong grip and try to hold off for a bit. Once I take my hands out of it, then I can relax and "let" them release on their own. Then I dial the strength back to where it needs to be. This is probably what the he meant by "work his way back".

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1364951653' post='6748173']
[quote name='bell812' timestamp='1364949574' post='6747929']
http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-09-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-2.html

This would indicate most guys on tour favor a grip considered strong.
[/quote]

I read these articles about 2 weeks ago and was impressed that most tour player's grips are on the strongish side. I guess if you have a weak pivot then you will hit hooks with a real strong grip but if the pivot is working properly the ball should go pretty straight. Most tour pros have a good pivot. I read somewhere that one of the main differences in swings between a scratch golfer and a tour pro is the pros start rotating there hips on the downswing 1-4/30ths of a second before they pull the club with their arms. Maybe this is the reason that tour pros can use strong grips and not have a hookfest.
[/quote]
I think you have a good point here

grab a club and put forward shaft lean on it to how it's meant to be at impact. Then take a grip you feel you can support the club in that position, take the club back to address and see how strong it looks.

I think you should focus on how comfortable your grip feels at impact position and not at address.

I bet nearly 99% of people would end up with a strong grip by doing this. If you try and hit a ball with a neutral grip and forward shaft lean the face points WAY right. So the only way to square the face is a flip,

Another thing, Ben hogan is often credited with a weak grip. Grab a club in a strong grip with low hands at address, then raise your hands to high at address and now the grip looks quite weak. So also check how high your hands are. Ben hogan had high address hands so his grip was a bit stronger than it looks.

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1364943929' post='6747367']
Teach says "The pros don't consciously use their hands and certainly don't consciously use them for speed." Lets examine this a bit.

First, is this even true? Is it actually the case that none of "the pros" consciously use their hands to create speed? If it is true how could anyone know that its true without and intimate knowledge of every one of "the pros", what they use their hands for, and what they are doing consciously. Seems like a pretty bold generalization about what "the pros" do.

The more important point though is if we knew that no pro used his hands to create speed would that dictate what should be taught to a fellow who is not a pro, never wants to be a pro, lacks the talent, fitness and practice time of a pro and really just wants to play a bit better on Saturday with his friends. Why is there no general improvement in the quality of golf played by the vast majority of golfers? Could it be because teachers are trying to teach the not very athletic fellow who spends 40 hours a week behind a desk and can't spare more than an hour or two per week for practice to swing like a pro?

This is not directed just at Teach, or even primarily. I consider it unfortunate however that a major criteria for determining who is and who isn't a good teacher is what elite players they have taught. That Foley by way of example can get Tiger's game to the top level says very little about what he can do for an average golfer.

Steve
[/quote]

Because tour pros are superhuman, and feature a different set of physics than the rest of us. Contrary to popular belief, Tiger is mortal. Therefore, if foley can improve Tiger's game, he can certainly improve a 10 handicaps. Would you rather have the olympic sprinters coach or a HS coach, coach your kid when you are trying to get him to run a better 100m?

I'd want the best coach of High School sprinters I can find. That could possibly be the same guy who coaches Olympic sprinters but there is no reas0on to assume that it would. Apart from who the coach is there is what is being taught. I would want him to be teaching techniques applicable to a high school sprinter which might not be the same as techniques applicable to Usaine Bolt.

That seems obvious to me. How about you?

Steve

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1365025526' post='6754257']
I'd want the best coach of High School sprinters I can find. That could possibly be the same guy who coaches Olympic sprinters but there is no reas0on to assume that it would. Apart from who the coach is there is what is being taught. I would want him to be teaching techniques applicable to a high school sprinter which might not be the same as techniques applicable to Usaine Bolt.

That seems obvious to me. How about you?

Steve
[/quote]

So, should golfers use their hands to create speed in their swing and how?

"Properly release the club", what a loads of crap. Tell that to Johnny Miller, Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan. Find a new pro.

Hawkeye:

Not to derail this thread I started a new one this morning and addressed your question there.

I think the strong grip is just just another one of the many band aids whose primary reason for existence is to fight a slice. IMO it promotes an over the top swing path, a loose back swing and a handsy impact move. A strong grip should be left to guys like Couples that naturally have a swing that works with it. The rest of us should stick to the fundamentals.

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1365026863' post='6754473']
Hawkeye:

Not to derail this thread I started a new one this morning and addressed your question there.
[/quote]

I'll take a look.

[quote name='Wknd_Warrior' timestamp='1365027032' post='6754507']
I think the strong grip is just just another one of the many band aids whose primary reason for existence is to fight a slice. IMO it promotes an over the top swing path, a loose back swing and a handsy impact move. A strong grip should be left to guys like Couples that naturally have a swing that works with it. The rest of us should stick to the fundamentals.
[/quote]
No such thing as fundamental grip strength. What you said is correct, "a swing that naturally works with it".... But there are a lot of swigs like that, many more than just couples. a lot of OTT players can't even consider a strong grip as their face NEEDS to be open so the ball will boomerang back right instead o going left of left of left.