Spine Alignment FLO Results?

[BrianL99]

I've seen a lot ridiculous threads on WRX through the years, but seeing this thread in 2016 moves it close to the top of the Nonsense List.

 

Unless you're playing 20 year old, $3 shafts you found a Flea Market, FLO, Spining, SSTPure and everything else is just that ... nonsense.

 

Ball bearing "spine finders"? Ridiculous. A team of MIT Scientists couldn't find a "spine" with a ball bearing finder.

[KRW59]

I too am in the BrianL99 camp.

 

A lot of the modern shafts have been tested for radial consistency,

and found to have a less than 1% variance regardless of orientation.

Many of the the high end shafts tested 0, or perfectly round.

[Golfrnut]

I tested a lot with a sort of clamps. (rounded, straight clamp shapes)

I ended using a diamond shape clamp connected with 4 pressure points.

That leaves only 4 spots where the shaft is connected. That will show the hard side pretty precise.

In corroboration with a frequency analyzer it proved the most consistent outcome.

 

 

And you are worried about clamping when that is the stiffest part of the shaft and also the part that is gripped by the hands anyway for why exactly?

[RogerinNewZealand]

Howdy BrianL99 it is 2016 and at the Range i couldn't hit the Flags until i found WRX and was taught how to

Spine Align .

 

Cheers, Roger

[BrianL99]

Howdy BrianL99 it is 2016 and at the Range i couldn't hit the Flags until i found WRX and was taught how to

Spine Align .

 

Cheers, Roger

 

You should ease off a bit and knock 'em in the holes, instead of hitting the flags.

[baudi]

And you are worried about clamping when that is the stiffest part of the shaft and also the part that is gripped by the hands anyway for why exactly?

@ Golfrnut: Would you please elaborate your question?

[tx33]

Real world opinion: TW : "...Shaft spine alignment can be important to SOME players depending on their swing characteristics, but by no means is it a critical element for ALL golfers. With the limited space I have for each piece, I have to award a priority to covering information that will be pertinent to the largest segment of golfers and spine alignment/orientation does not fit that priority. FYI so I don’t leave this too much in the dark, I’ll leave you with two basics about it – 1) far fewer shafts today exhibit asymmetry properties for which a spine/asymmetry check and realignment is necessary, 2) shaft spine alignment/orientation becomes more important as the clubhead speed gets higher, as the downswing move becomes more aggressive and as the release becomes later and later in the downswing...."

 

Science: Tutelman (Spines / FLO)

 

Philosophy: "..in golf, whatever YOU think matters, matters...." :P

[baudi]

Philosophy: "..in golf, whatever YOU think matters, matters...."

yes. I like this quote.

 

If cpm (butt) is a useful value; thru spining I get a better slope thru a set of irons.

Again, I feel a distinct difference in the swing yet translating this feel into a hard measure (eg. dispersion in feet) is nearly impossible.

[Golfrnut]

And you are worried about clamping when that is the stiffest part of the shaft and also the part that is gripped by the hands anyway for why exactly?

@ Golfrnut: Would you please elaborate your question?

 

My point beibg that clamping doesn't really matter. You are clamping at the stiffest part of a shaft, and also clamping in an area that's held by the hands. Whether its a 5 inch cpm clamp or a zone profile clamp(which I assume you are using), it's in the area that has the least amount of flex. If we are using the FCM to measure flex, that would be one thing as beam length changes so the cpm number is effected, but in terms of flo, your deflection is coming from lower parts of the shaft.

 

In the case of using the zone clamp, you take more chance of damaging a shaft as well IMO because it's not being used as intended and creating pressure points on a part of the shaft it wasn't desinged to fit.

[baudi]

Is see your point. I 'll explain briefly:

With a round clamp or straight clamp the shaft is attached too stable. Hence more or less same result in flo-ing.

With diamond shaped clamp I built myself the tolerance in the result of the flo-process is much smaller. Hence many difference outcomes.

I checked these outcomes with my CPM unit. And that makes sense

A Tool I really want to buy is a shaft profiler btw.

[carn9698]

I've seen a lot ridiculous threads on WRX through the years, but seeing this thread in 2016 moves it close to the top of the Nonsense List.

 

Unless you're playing 20 year old, $3 shafts you found a Flea Market, FLO, Spining, SSTPure and everything else is just that ... nonsense.

 

Ball bearing "spine finders"? Ridiculous. A team of MIT Scientists couldn't find a "spine" with a ball bearing finder.

you should go with the FLO.

[BrianL99]

I've seen a lot ridiculous threads on WRX through the years, but seeing this thread in 2016 moves it close to the top of the Nonsense List.

 

Unless you're playing 20 year old, $3 shafts you found a Flea Market, FLO, Spining, SSTPure and everything else is just that ... nonsense.

 

Ball bearing "spine finders"? Ridiculous. A team of MIT Scientists couldn't find a "spine" with a ball bearing finder.

you should go with the FLO.

 

Going with the FLO, is something like believing the world is flat :)

[carn9698]

I've seen a lot ridiculous threads on WRX through the years, but seeing this thread in 2016 moves it close to the top of the Nonsense List.

 

Unless you're playing 20 year old, $3 shafts you found a Flea Market, FLO, Spining, SSTPure and everything else is just that ... nonsense.

 

Ball bearing "spine finders"? Ridiculous. A team of MIT Scientists couldn't find a "spine" with a ball bearing finder.

you should go with the FLO.

you know you want to Brian. Just closes out that tiny bit of doubt about the club possibly not helping you fully.

 

It can only hurt the wallet and we cannot take it with us.

 

Going with the FLO, is something like believing the world is flat :)

you know you want to Brian! Can only hurt the wallet and rubs out doubt.

[Stuart_G]

Is see your point. I 'll explain briefly:

With a round clamp or straight clamp the shaft is attached too stable. Hence more or less same result in flo-ing.

With diamond shaped clamp I built myself the tolerance in the result of the flo-process is much smaller. Hence many difference outcomes.

I checked these outcomes with my CPM unit. And that makes sense

 

No, it really doesn't make sense (at least the explanation). When you are measuring the shaft, you can't have a clamp that's too stable. The more stable the clamp, the more accurate the results reflect the characteristics of the shaft. When the clamp isn't completely stable, the results you get will be a combination of both the shaft and how the (unstable) clamp allows the shaft to move and therefore not a true representation of the shaft.

 

Now if by "too stable" you mean that the diameter of the circular clamp doesn't match the diameter of the shaft where it was clamped AND you tightened it so much that you caused some asymmetric deformation of the shaft (turned a circular shaft into a slight oval shape), then that can certainly negatively impact the results. But that type of distortion can happen with any type of clamp if you use too much pressure.

[baudi]

Maybe stable is not the correct word. The shaft is very tight in the clamp but the clamp does not influence the walls. The shaft is more free to move into any direction. By the way because freedom of the parts and individual 4 pressure points the clamp fits very precise.

 

Point is: I spot a difference in measurement which corroborated by cpm readings.

Very expensive hi end shafts do not show a straight oscillating pattern in all directions.

If the shaft is stable; I would expect doing so.

 

eg. Steelfiber is so/so; Irod is very straight in every direction.

Modus 3 120 -unstable; KBS ctaper is stable in all directions.

 

Will set up a test and show the differences by the end of december. (`Besides it is always good to judge/break down your principles and rephrase the conditions if necessary Still I.ve been very thorough about this 6 years ago because I was on the hand of the disbelievers who think flo-ing does not work .

[MJisGOAT]

http://pluggedingolf.com/does-pureing-a-shaft-improve-performance-golf-myths-unplugged/

[RogerinNewZealand]

Gentlemen,

 

I had a great day out on a Country Golf Course yesterday.

Due to over work and stuff like that, i havent played since June and i had a Right Cataract done around Aug Sept

so now i can hit a bal well again.

 

I rebuilt my Bridgestone J33 CB's, spine aligned them and soft stepped the 4 5 6 irons also, DGSL 300,

around 110 grams plus tip weights. Callaway wedges are also spine aligned.

I also used the Royal Collection driver for first time, built it a few months ago as a mid launch 10.5.

Heard it was accurate, but the Tin Can at impact sound is not a winner.Spine Aligned

 

Well, yesterday the Royal Collection proved a Radar and my playing partner was stunned!

Always a great start to Par the first hole a par 5 after no golf since June.

I hit 14 fairways, best in recent memory, overshot two par 3's including a 177 metre par3 that i parred. 5 Pars.

 

All i am saying to the people keen to listen and improve their game, is give spine aligning a GO.

 

It is a subject i never argue over.I spine mine to 9pm to target.

 

Have a great day ! Shall we say i have a HAPPY BAG right now, so Thanks Again Golfwrx!

Note the return of the TM 200 3 wood.......back in the bag !! Cleveland wedges and Putter too !! Spalding Bag !!

Cheers

[carn9698]

Gentlemen,

 

I had a great day out on a Country Golf Course yesterday.

Due to over work and stuff like that, i havent played since June and i had a Right Cataract done around Aug Sept

so now i can hit a bal well again.

 

I rebuilt my Bridgestone J33 CB's, spine aligned them and soft stepped the 4 5 6 irons also, DGSL 300,

around 110 grams plus tip weights. Callaway wedges are also spine aligned.

I also used the Royal Collection driver for first time, built it a few months ago as a mid launch 10.5.

Heard it was accurate, but the Tin Can at impact sound is not a winner.Spine Aligned

 

Well, yesterday the Royal Collection proved a Radar and my playing partner was stunned!

Always a great start to Par the first hole a par 5 after no golf since June.

I hit 14 fairways, best in recent memory, overshot two par 3's including a 177 metre par3 that i parred. 5 Pars.

 

All i am saying to the people keen to listen and improve their game, is give spine aligning a GO.

 

It is a subject i never argue over.I spine mine to 9pm to target.

 

Have a great day ! Shall we say i have a HAPPY BAG right now, so Thanks Again Golfwrx!

Note the return of the TM 200 3 wood.......back in the bag !! Cleveland wedges and Putter too !! Spalding Bag !!

Cheers

nice to hear you are back out on the course Roger.

 

Your irons intrigue me. Bridgestones are not readily available in the UK though.

 

I agree on spine FLO. It only hurts the wallet a little and that peace of mind in cutting out 1 more thing you could potentially blame is a good thing in my book.

[RogerinNewZealand]

Carn, thanks, it's the Indian needing improvement, not the Arrows!!

 

But it's great to have Irons, Wedges, Putter and Driver 10.5, probably a true 9.75 and Hybrid (19)

all working very very well.

 

The J33 CB are rated an all time classic and i have used Hogan BH grind, , Ping G5 and S58 and Callaway X12 pro

plus Cobra S3 Pro and J36 combo over the last 3 or 4 years The J33 CB are just great overall !!

[neoglitz]

There will always be a debate about the benefits of FLO. To me, it just makes sense in a game were millimeters matter when contacting the ball.

[Stuart_G]

Maybe stable is not the correct word. The shaft is very tight in the clamp but the clamp does not influence the walls. The shaft is more free to move into any direction. By the way because freedom of the parts and individual 4 pressure points the clamp fits very precise.

 

If it's a discussion on how the clamp allows or restricts the movement of the shaft than 'stability' is the right word. Also the length of the clamp and how it's mounted can play an important point. It's not just about the shape of the clamping surface. Also, It's a matter of semantics but clamps shouldn't allow motion, they only prevent it. The ideal clamp for FLO'ing will just prevent it equally in all directions.

 

Don't get me wrong, FWIW, a diamond clamp is generally considered fine for finding a FLO. But as mentioned before, there is more to the accuracy of the system then just that aspect of the clamp.

 

Point is: I spot a difference in measurement which corroborated by cpm readings.

 

Sorry, your method of corroboration is not clear. What do you think you are validating and how are you validating it?

 

Very expensive hi end shafts do not show a straight oscillating pattern in all directions.

If the shaft is stable; I would expect doing so.

 

Sorry, that is not an assumption that can be used for any type of validation. Price of the shaft has nothing to do with the presence or absence of a spine nor the magnitude in the difference between the spine and NBP frequencies. And even with a small difference, if the shaft is plucked on an axis off of the NBP or spine, it will wobble (assuming it was properly clamped).

 

Will set up a test and show the differences by the end of december. (`Besides it is always good to judge/break down your principles and rephrase the conditions if necessary Still I.ve been very thorough about this 6 years ago because I was on the hand of the disbelievers who think flo-ing does not work .

 

Sound like a very good idea. Looking forward to reading it.

[BrianL99]

There will always be a debate about the benefits of FLO. To me, it just makes sense in a game were millimeters matter when contacting the ball.

 

The "debate" was in the 90's. The theory was pretty much debunked in the new century.

 

It seem to only be discussed by SSTPure and folks on WRX, these days. Without exception, every club and shaft manufacturer has said there's no benefit, as did the USGA.

 

But like the theory that the Earth is flat and that OJ did it, they'll always be doubters.

[carn9698]

There will always be a debate about the benefits of FLO. To me, it just makes sense in a game were millimeters matter when contacting the ball.

 

The "debate" was in the 90's. The theory was pretty much debunked in the new century.

 

It seem to only be discussed by SSTPure and folks on WRX, these days. Without exception, every club and shaft manufacturer has said there's no benefit, as did the USGA.

 

But like the theory that the Earth is flat and that OJ did it, they'll always be doubters.

personally I still prefer a flat line oscillation when I twang my club rather than that random oval pattern. Each of us too our own though.

[baudi]

Well okay let's egalize some thoughts and turn up the discussion into the right direction.

I work from principles I like to address with questions.

 

Questions

1. What does a flat oscillating pattern mean?

1A. What does a oval pattern mean.

1B. Why does the oval first move into on direction and then into an other (same as principle as Foucault's pendulum?)

2. Why do some shafts move in a flat line in a certain position and do others produce an oval?

3. What is the influence of the weight tip? IOW: Does it distort the outcome?

4. Why does a shaft show the highest cpm measured in a flat line position?

5. How can spine finding thru a laser be improved (note there is not really a spine)

6. Why is a sstpured shaft always a straight flo-line in my clamp (ok - I've seen only two shafts but I expect this to be true for any shaft)

7, What is the exact argument of shaft producers that flo-ing is not usefull.

8. Which exact quantifiable or qualitative research is available or are we simply looking into the blind.

9 A straight 'twang' is hard to achieve and a non straight will affect results. How can this be achieved?

Please add more questions if you like.

 

Other question: do (all) shaft producers accept the outcome of SST PURE? (I do know the subjective answer btw)

[baudi]

baudi, on 26 November 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

 

Point is: I spot a difference in measurement which corroborated by cpm readings.

 

Sorry, your method of corroboration is not clear. What do you think you are validating and how are you validating it?

 

It is not a method; when I spot a straight line cpm is always a different number in cpm from an oval line. That difference is upto 6 cpms sometimes. That is a lot imho.

[carn9698]

Well okay let's egalize some thoughts and turn up the discussion into the right direction.

I work from principles I like to address with questions.

 

Questions

1. What does a flat oscillating pattern mean?

1A. What does a oval pattern mean.

1B. Why does the oval first move into on direction and then into an other (same as principle as Foucault's pendulum?)

2. Why do some shafts move in a flat line in a certain position and do others produce an oval?

3. What is the influence of the weight tip? IOW: Does it distort the outcome?

4. Why does a shaft show the highest cpm measured in a flat line position?

5. How can spine finding thru a laser be improved (note there is not really a spine)

6. Why is a sstpured shaft always a straight flo-line in my clamp (ok - I've seen only two shafts but I expect this to be true for any shaft)

7, What is the exact argument of shaft producers that flo-ing is not usefull.

8. Which exact quantifiable or qualitative research is available or are we simply looking into the blind.

9 A straight 'twang' is hard to achieve and a non straight will affect results. How can this be achieved?

Please add more questions if you like.

 

Other question: do (all) shaft producers accept the outcome of SST PURE? (I do know the subjective answer btw)

now Baudi has laid the table for true club boffins to weigh in.

 

I am in no way qualified to answer said tabled questions, but I am all ears for the responses.

 

Way to go Baudi. Loving your logical approach for truth finding.

[neoglitz]

There will always be a debate about the benefits of FLO. To me, it just makes sense in a game were millimeters matter when contacting the ball.

 

The "debate" was in the 90's. The theory was pretty much debunked in the new century.

 

It seem to only be discussed by SSTPure and folks on WRX, these days. Without exception, every club and shaft manufacturer has said there's no benefit, as did the USGA.

 

But like the theory that the Earth is flat and that OJ did it, they'll always be doubters.

 

Ok that is a bit too far... You are assuming there is NO benefit. I must disagree. If your reasoning resides in the fact that manufacturer's state there is not a benefit to the process, you make an assumption that those companies have the best interests of the golfers of the world at the forefront of what they do. The golf companies are a business and in business for a profit... period. Introducing another step, like F.L.O. or SST, in club manufacturing to slow the never ending need to release new clubs every six months would not benefit that their profit margin. In regard to the USGA, I would love to read that statement or article if you could provide the link.

[Stuart_G]

Well okay let's egalize some thoughts and turn up the discussion into the right direction.

I work from principles I like to address with questions.

 

Questions

1. What does a flat oscillating pattern mean?

1A. What does a oval pattern mean.

1B. Why does the oval first move into on direction and then into an other (same as principle as Foucault's pendulum?)

2. Why do some shafts move in a flat line in a certain position and do others produce an oval?

3. What is the influence of the weight tip? IOW: Does it distort the outcome?

4. Why does a shaft show the highest cpm measured in a flat line position?

5. How can spine finding thru a laser be improved (note there is not really a spine)

6. Why is a sstpured shaft always a straight flo-line in my clamp (ok - I've seen only two shafts but I expect this to be true for any shaft)

7, What is the exact argument of shaft producers that flo-ing is not usefull.

8. Which exact quantifiable or qualitative research is available or are we simply looking into the blind.

9 A straight 'twang' is hard to achieve and a non straight will affect results. How can this be achieved?

Please add more questions if you like.

 

Other question: do (all) shaft producers accept the outcome of SST PURE? (I do know the subjective answer btw)

 

Tutelman has 7+ pages that will answer many of those questions (as well as a few you havent' asked). Here is the link to the first page, use the left/right arrows near the top of the page to scroll through all the pages.

 

http://www.tutelman....AboutSpines.php

[03SMURF]

Well okay let's egalize some thoughts and turn up the discussion into the right direction.

I work from principles I like to address with questions.

 

Questions

1. What does a flat oscillating pattern mean?

1A. What does a oval pattern mean.

1B. Why does the oval first move into on direction and then into an other (same as principle as Foucault's pendulum?)

2. Why do some shafts move in a flat line in a certain position and do others produce an oval?

3. What is the influence of the weight tip? IOW: Does it distort the outcome?

4. Why does a shaft show the highest cpm measured in a flat line position?

5. How can spine finding thru a laser be improved (note there is not really a spine)

6. Why is a sstpured shaft always a straight flo-line in my clamp (ok - I've seen only two shafts but I expect this to be true for any shaft)

7, What is the exact argument of shaft producers that flo-ing is not usefull.

8. Which exact quantifiable or qualitative research is available or are we simply looking into the blind.

9 A straight 'twang' is hard to achieve and a non straight will affect results. How can this be achieved?

Please add more questions if you like.

 

Other question: do (all) shaft producers accept the outcome of SST PURE? (I do know the subjective answer btw)

 

Tutelman has 7+ pages that will answer many of those questions (as well as a few you havent' asked). Here is the link to the first page, use the left/right arrows near the top of the page to scroll through all the pages.

 

http://www.tutelman....AboutSpines.php

 

Good resource, thanks for the link. What I got out of glancing through it was this: most steel shafts and filament wound graphite shafts have almost no spine at all. That's what I'll take to the bank.

[platgof]

Why don't we keep this thread friendly. And yes, OJ did it. If someone wants to try it, why not. No harm, no fowl!