Spine Alignment FLO Results?

[carn9698]

I have found a guy that will carry this out on my longest Hybrid.

 

It's an experiment for me to see any benefits. If it works out I will get my Driver, fairway and highest loft hybrid done as well.

 

For those who have done his already, what results have you seen(if any)?

 

I presume steel iron shafts have little or no spine, so not worth having it done to them?

[Switch]

I have all my clubs spined. It has been proven in tests to make a difference and there are tons of guys on tour that do it. I can tell for sure, but it's a game of small differences so may not be cost justified to most.

[baudi]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

[carn9698]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

From what I have researched most people align with target like yourself.

 

When you mention soft side, are you referring to having the actual spine at 3 or 9 o clock?

 

If the spine is at 9 o clock would 9 o clock normally be the hard side? Or does it depend or have I got the wrong end of the stick(not shaft!)?

 

Thanks for your posts so far guys.

[the bishop]

I have found a guy that will carry this out on my longest Hybrid.

 

It's an experiment for me to see any benefits. If it works out I will get my Driver, fairway and highest loft hybrid done as well.

 

For those who have done his already, what results have you seen(if any)?

 

I presume steel iron shafts have little or no spine, so not worth having it done to them?

Steel shafts indeed have a spine. For graphite shafts I have been told that filament wound shafts have little to no discernible spine. If a graphite shaft is not filament wound I would have it spine. JMO.

[Jcard]

What is the direct effect in doing this? Does the shaft become somewhat firmer or have more of a whip to it?

[Jwin323]

Every shaft has a spine no matter the material. The amount of oscillation may be greater in composite shafts than in steel, but it still exists. I have had all my shafts SST pured. I believe in the science of it. For us average golfers, it may not make a huge difference because our swings aren't as consistent as pros or top ams. But I look at it this way---- the times when I make a good swing, especially with something important riding on it, I want to know it will perform like it's designed to.

[Pinger89]

Ive been toying around with FLOing as well lately. Been doing it to shafts myself using a shaft clamp and a laser pointer attached to a drill chuck. The idea is that because shafts have a spine they are not perfectly symmetrical. Therefore, FLOing a shaft will provide the most consistent delivery of the clubhead to the ball and will not produce shaft-induced mishits (or at least severely reduce them). Without FLOing, there is the thought that you could make a great swing and have the ball fly with an unexpected flight.

 

We do need to be clear the SPINING a shaft and FLOing a shaft are completely different things. Finding the spine of a shaft does not mean it is the correct orinetion for FLO. Finding spine is done statically, while finding FLO is done dynamically with a moving, bending shaft.

 

As far as my experience.. I've FLOer a few iron shafts, but in all honesty it's fairly difficult to get it perfect. The shafts are shorter and steel obviously doesn't bend as much. I got it as close as possible. However, I have also FLOed a hybrid shaft and a fairway shaft. The FLO is very clear when it comes to testing and I installed the shafts with the FLO line at 12 o'clock. What that means is once the shaft is FLOed a line is drawn on the shaft directly on top. That line is then placed parallel to the clubface in a square position in the hosel.

 

I hit both the hybrid and the fairway and I won't lie... scary consistent. Have you ever had that feeling standing over a shot where you just know you can make the ball do what you want it to do? It's that feeling. Making the swing you just know the clubhead is going to be delivered the way you want it (obviously provided you make the swing you intend). Did I have mis-hits? Yea, of course. But I could feel that in my swing and knew it. It wasn't like I was swinging and had no idea where the ball was going. I knew when I made a good swing and I knew what to expect from the flight and it happened. I knew when I made a bad swing and knew what to expect from the flight of that bad swing.

 

At the end of the day I think the longer and more flexible the shaft the more you will notice a difference. I cannot wait to do it with my driver shaft!

[Jwin323]

What is the direct effect in doing this? Does the shaft become somewhat firmer or have more of a whip to it?

 

 

All shafts are not perfectly round due to production tolerances. This creates a "spine" in the shaft. Most (particularly graphite) shafts have two planes where the shaft will vibrate in a completely stable back and forth motion. At every other point not on one of these planes the shaft will vibrate in a circular motion. One of these planes has a lower frequency than the other. Finding these planes is called finding FLO (Flat Line Oscillation). I place the Flat Line Oscillation (FLO) plane that has the lower frequency in the down the target line position. This is accomplished by attaching a laser to the shaft and twanging it horizontally, adjusting the dry fitted head until a flat oscillation laser line is obtained. I also will find the spine in the shaft but finding FLO usually finds the most stable shaft plane. This allows the shaft to vibrate in its most stable orientation for consistent ball flight.

[Golfrnut]

Spine an FLO are kind of two different processes. Spinining is usually done using some sort of tool, and rotating the shaft while flexed and finding the point where it wants to stop. FLO is used with a tip wight and looking at the oscillating motion while "twanging" the shaft. The FLO process will kind of make the spining process null and void, can't really do both.

 

Shaft puring is a totally different process.

 

Both the spin and FLO process can be done by just about anyone, but needs to be done with the club disassembled.

 

 

Edit: Also see Pinger has touched on much of the same thing.

[Jwin323]

Ive been toying around with FLOing as well lately. Been doing it to shafts myself using a shaft clamp and a laser pointer attached to a drill chuck. The idea is that because shafts have a spine they are not perfectly symmetrical. Therefore, FLOing a shaft will provide the most consistent delivery of the clubhead to the ball and will not produce shaft-induced mishits (or at least severely reduce them). Without FLOing, there is the thought that you could make a great swing and have the ball fly with an unexpected flight.

 

We do need to be clear the SPINING a shaft and FLOing a shaft are completely different things. Finding the spine of a shaft does not mean it is the correct orinetion for FLO. Finding spine is done statically, while finding FLO is done dynamically with a moving, bending shaft.

 

As far as my experience.. I've FLOer a few iron shafts, but in all honesty it's fairly difficult to get it perfect. The shafts are shorter and steel obviously doesn't bend as much. I got it as close as possible. However, I have also FLOed a hybrid shaft and a fairway shaft. The FLO is very clear when it comes to testing and I installed the shafts with the FLO line at 12 o'clock. What that means is once the shaft is FLOed a line is drawn on the shaft directly on top. That line is then placed parallel to the clubface in a square position in the hosel.

 

I hit both the hybrid and the fairway and I won't lie... scary consistent. Have you ever had that feeling standing over a shot where you just know you can make the ball do what you want it to do? It's that feeling. Making the swing you just know the clubhead is going to be delivered the way you want it (obviously provided you make the swing you intend). Did I have mis-hits? Yea, of course. But I could feel that in my swing and knew it. It wasn't like I was swinging and had no idea where the ball was going. I knew when I made a good swing and I knew what to expect from the flight and it happened. I knew when I made a bad swing and knew what to expect from the flight of that bad swing.

 

At the end of the day I think the longer and more flexible the shaft the more you will notice a difference. I cannot wait to do it with my driver shaft!

 

Your explanation above is why a lot of people have a favorite club that they just can't miss with. Most likely it's because the shaft has coincidentally been spiced or FLO d during installation.

[Quasimoto]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

From what I have researched most people align with target like yourself.

 

When you mention soft side, are you referring to having the actual spine at 3 or 9 o clock?

 

If the spine is at 9 o clock would 9 o clock normally be the hard side? Or does it depend or have I got the wrong end of the stick(not shaft!)?

 

Thanks for your posts so far guys.

 

Perhaps the ROG have changed since I last was involved with spining, but I thought that it is only legal to orient the spine at 9 or 3.

Everything else is not permitted. (?)

[carn9698]

I knew you guys would come back with some good feedback. Thanks. This site is very helpful a lot of the time.

[carn9698]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

From what I have researched most people align with target like yourself.

 

When you mention soft side, are you referring to having the actual spine at 3 or 9 o clock?

 

If the spine is at 9 o clock would 9 o clock normally be the hard side? Or does it depend or have I got the wrong end of the stick(not shaft!)?

 

Thanks for your posts so far guys.

 

Perhaps the ROG have changed since I last was involved with spining, but I thought that it is only legal to orient the spine at 9 or 3.

Everything else is not permitted. (?)

I also saw that on a golfing idiots YouTube video about the same subject. Ie; You cannot FLO a club to produce a draw or fade or something to that affect.

[Quasimoto]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

From what I have researched most people align with target like yourself.

 

When you mention soft side, are you referring to having the actual spine at 3 or 9 o clock?

 

If the spine is at 9 o clock would 9 o clock normally be the hard side? Or does it depend or have I got the wrong end of the stick(not shaft!)?

 

Thanks for your posts so far guys.

 

Perhaps the ROG have changed since I last was involved with spining, but I thought that it is only legal to orient the spine at 9 or 3.

Everything else is not permitted. (?)

I also saw that on a golfing idiots YouTube video about the same subject. Ie; You cannot FLO a club to produce a draw or fade or something to that affect.

 

So what does that have to do with the comment?

[carn9698]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

From what I have researched most people align with target like yourself.

 

When you mention soft side, are you referring to having the actual spine at 3 or 9 o clock?

 

If the spine is at 9 o clock would 9 o clock normally be the hard side? Or does it depend or have I got the wrong end of the stick(not shaft!)?

 

Thanks for your posts so far guys.

 

Perhaps the ROG have changed since I last was involved with spining, but I thought that it is only legal to orient the spine at 9 or 3.

Everything else is not permitted. (?)

I also saw that on a golfing idiots YouTube video about the same subject. Ie; You cannot FLO a club to produce a draw or fade or something to that affect.

 

So what does that have to do with the comment?

for me it means I will check with my spine guy to ensure whatever he does to my club or clubs is legal.

[Stuart_G]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

From what I have researched most people align with target like yourself.

 

When you mention soft side, are you referring to having the actual spine at 3 or 9 o clock?

 

If the spine is at 9 o clock would 9 o clock normally be the hard side? Or does it depend or have I got the wrong end of the stick(not shaft!)?

 

Thanks for your posts so far guys.

 

Perhaps the ROG have changed since I last was involved with spining, but I thought that it is only legal to orient the spine at 9 or 3.

Everything else is not permitted. (?)

 

No, the rules say a shaft can not specifically designed to have any kind of asymmetric behavior or be designed to provide any bias in any other way. Asymmetry as purely a byproduct of the imperfection of the manufacturing process is fine and you are free to install the shaft any way you want.

 

As previously noted, the USGA recognizes that it is difficult for manufacturers to consistently produce a perfectly symmetrical shaft and, provided that the shaft is manufactured with the intention of meeting the above requirements, the USGA may incorporate a reasonable tolerance when evaluating shafts for conformance.

 

Anyways changing the orientation wont inherently give any kind of noticeable fade or draw bias directly. It basically just results in a shaft with potentially a slightly different bend profile and thus feel. It's only the change in feel that can indirectly cause some change in the swing itself for some people that might potentially effect the shot shape in various ways.

[percymon]

ITs easy enough to find the spine - metal tube and three roller bearings - $25

 

Would always check any shaft, especially iron shafts since most have no logo (shaft label added later in majority of cases). Last driver shaft (Fujikura) i built up has a mark on the butt end already - which proved to be the dominant spine of two I detected

[Stuart_G]

ITs easy enough to find the spine - metal tube and three roller bearings - $25

 

Would always check any shaft, especially iron shafts since most have no logo (shaft label added later in majority of cases). Last driver shaft (Fujikura) i built up has a mark on the butt end already - which proved to be the dominant spine of two I detected

 

Those type of bearing based 'spine finders' are really not always as reliable as you might think.

 

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/allAboutSpines2.php

[baudi]

I choose a direction of nine o'clock because of the stress on the shaft during impact.

 

Interesting fact about flo-ing is the difference in cpm measured from the butt.

Bad quality shafts show a range up to 6 cpm. When the orientation is changed.

Flo-ing is still cheapest way to find out on the quality of the shaft. (Puring is great but excessively expensive).

Although, I would like to use a shaftprofiler to put stress on certain zones in the shaft. At least to find a pattern.

Any set that is flo-ed (and moi balanced) outperforms the same set that comes straight from the factory.

[percymon]

ITs easy enough to find the spine - metal tube and three roller bearings - $25

 

Would always check any shaft, especially iron shafts since most have no logo (shaft label added later in majority of cases). Last driver shaft (Fujikura) i built up has a mark on the butt end already - which proved to be the dominant spine of two I detected

 

Those type of bearing based 'spine finders' are really not always as reliable as you might think.

 

http://www.tutelman....boutSpines2.php

 

Thanks for the link - useful reading.

 

When I am only reshafting one or two sets of irons a year and experimenting with up to 4 driver shafts they are good enough for my purposes - perhaps not for a pukka club maker, but better than nothing. I'm actually pleased that on the one shaft that was already marked i found the same spine as indicated on the butt

[Stuart_G]

Tutelman is a great source for the scientifically oriented folks. It's not always completely up-to-date but for most of the work, basic physics hasn't really changed that much so still provides a very solid framework for understanding the issues.

 

Don't know if you noticed or not but he has 6-7 pages just on shaft spines. Use the left right arrow/scroll buttons on the page I gave the link of to go through them all if you want to read more on the subject.

[Manz60]

heres a comment from Tom Wishon that might help,

 

"I’ll leave you with two basics about it – 1) far fewer shafts today exhibit asymmetry properties for which a spine/asymmetry check and realignment is necessary, 2) shaft spine alignment/orientation becomes more important as the clubhead speed gets higher, as the downswing move becomes more aggressive and as the release becomes later and later in the downswing."

(source: http://www.golfwrx.com/286911/wishon-what-shaft-flex-should-i-use/)

 

You'll find it in the below comments section.

 

Hope this helps

M60

[platgof]

I haven't seen this discussion for awhile. I usually flo and mark the top as mentioned before and place it in the head as such. But some of you are not leaving the club in the flo position, but moving the top mark at 9, and some at 3? I also have a spine machine as well, with ABEC 7 bearings(roller skate) used. If you don't believe in floing, watch it done first hand, or better yet do it yourself. The cheaper the shaft, the more you can make a super shaft out of it. By that, I mean you can make it real whippy! I have the same experience, the longer the shaft the more important it becomes. I never got great results from this(except cheap shafts), but maybe the 9 o'clock orientation would work better?

[Choo Choo]

heres a comment from Tom Wishon that might help,

 

"I’ll leave you with two basics about it – 1) far fewer shafts today exhibit asymmetry properties for which a spine/asymmetry check and realignment is necessary, 2) shaft spine alignment/orientation becomes more important as the clubhead speed gets higher, as the downswing move becomes more aggressive and as the release becomes later and later in the downswing."

(source: http://www.golfwrx.c...x-should-i-use/)

 

You'll find it in the below comments section.

 

Hope this helps

M60

 

This is why I've never fooled with it.

[neoglitz]

heres a comment from Tom Wishon that might help,

 

"I’ll leave you with two basics about it – 1) far fewer shafts today exhibit asymmetry properties for which a spine/asymmetry check and realignment is necessary, 2) shaft spine alignment/orientation becomes more important as the clubhead speed gets higher, as the downswing move becomes more aggressive and as the release becomes later and later in the downswing."

(source: http://www.golfwrx.c...x-should-i-use/)

 

You'll find it in the below comments section.

 

Hope this helps

M60

 

Hum...

 

I'm a big fan of Mr. Wishon and his extensive research. However, I find that comment interesting as he (Mr. Wishon) has a shaft line (or did prior to October 1st) that were very difficult to F.L.O.

[neoglitz]

flo-ing works. sometimes it takes some time

there is only 2 aspects I am looking for to solve: after flo-ing the most stable direction is detected.

- What should be the orientation in the head (I choose to align with target)

- What is the soft side and the hard side

From what I have researched most people align with target like yourself.

 

When you mention soft side, are you referring to having the actual spine at 3 or 9 o clock?

 

If the spine is at 9 o clock would 9 o clock normally be the hard side? Or does it depend or have I got the wrong end of the stick(not shaft!)?

 

Thanks for your posts so far guys.

 

Perhaps the ROG have changed since I last was involved with spining, but I thought that it is only legal to orient the spine at 9 or 3.

Everything else is not permitted. (?)

I also saw that on a golfing idiots YouTube video about the same subject. Ie; You cannot FLO a club to produce a draw or fade or something to that affect.

 

Thanks for watching! Here is the link for those interested in the process...

[baudi]

Thanks for the vid but that is not the best way to do it right.

The clamp covers most of the butt of the shaft. Using this method, even the most mediocre shafts look stable.

[neoglitz]

Thanks for the vid but that is not the best way to do it right.

The clamp covers most of the butt of the shaft. Using this method, even the most mediocre shafts look stable.

 

Well, please explain the better way. How will a mediocre shaft look "stable" without doing the "best way?" I would love to know the differences.

[baudi]

I tested a lot with a sort of clamps. (rounded, straight clamp shapes)

I ended using a diamond shape clamp connected with 4 pressure points.

That leaves only 4 spots where the shaft is connected. That will show the hard side pretty precise.

In corroboration with a frequency analyzer it proved the most consistent outcome.