Are custom built clubs worth the huge $$$ increase?

[PeanutsDaddy]

"I think the $1500 price tag is steep for a set of Apex irons"

I'm going to quote myself and add: only you can determine the value of these irons. What is peace of mind worth? What would you pay to drop one stroke a round? Do you have money to burn and/or will you miss the money if it were gone?

Last year I purchased a $500 set of custom built Cru Reserve headcovers. My playing partners think I'm crazy, but I love them. I'm also certain they will outlast almost every club in their bags (probably a few times over).

How can any of us determine 'value' for you?

[deck]

[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1398631481' post='9182157']
"I think the $1500 price tag is steep for a set of Apex irons"

I'm going to quote myself and add: only you can determine the value of these irons. What is peace of mind worth? What would you pay to drop one stroke a round? Do you have money to burn and/or will you miss the money if it were gone?

Last year I purchased a $500 set of custom built Cru Reserve headcovers. My playing partners think I'm crazy, but I love them. I'm also certain they will outlast almost every club in their bags (probably a few times over).

How can any of us determine 'value' for you?
[/quote]

How have we not seen these? I as well have some cru's. Love them. I have pure's old set. You will see them in my WITB I will be posting shortly.

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='deck' timestamp='1398631641' post='9182185']
[quote name='PeanutsDaddy' timestamp='1398631481' post='9182157']
"I think the $1500 price tag is steep for a set of Apex irons"

I'm going to quote myself and add: only you can determine the value of these irons. What is peace of mind worth? What would you pay to drop one stroke a round? Do you have money to burn and/or will you miss the money if it were gone?

Last year I purchased a $500 set of custom built Cru Reserve headcovers. My playing partners think I'm crazy, but I love them. I'm also certain they will outlast almost every club in their bags (probably a few times over).

How can any of us determine 'value' for you?
[/quote]

How have we not seen these? I as well have some cru's. Love them. I have pure's old set. You will see them in my WITB I will be posting shortly.
[/quote]

Deck,

I'm not holding out. The PD has many things (including leather bound books : ) Pure's review was the catalyst for my purchase last year. I will be posting a WITB in the near future as well, but I'm not finished the bag just yet. I would still like to add a 919 F/D, 7 wood/3 hybrid, and 60* HM wedge but need to convince my wife that I need them custom built. She's much more of a critic than anyone in these forums and she's my photographer so this may take some time.

[Mitchell]

Only the person making the purchase can justify if outlay of money offers equivalent value based upon satisfaction with services rendered. All of that being said, the price does seem a bit high for a no upcharge shaft, but I do not know fully what OP's fitting entailed or if any unusual specs were required. All of that being said, it is very disappointing that what could be a very enlightening and insightful thread had to get side-tracked by members personal biases and disagreements. OP, my suggestion is for you to read some of valuable information readily available here by posters such as Tom Wishon, Joe Kwok, Howard Jones, et. al...regarding what a good fitting should entail and then balance proposed cost with your goals, good luck!

[mikes919]

[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398630565' post='9182061']
[quote name='mikes919' timestamp='1398629342' post='9181919']
[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398625353' post='9181601']
One of the things that got lost in this thread.
The OP has to order the golf clubs with the golf shaft already built. The Apex or the AP2 do not come as components. Then, a club builder has to disassemble the clubs and rebuild them to the exact fitting specs, and tolerances.
The OP is asking if it is worth having this work done. He not asking about the up charge on the shafts.
[/quote]

But can't they just be ordered from Callaway with Tour-V's and whatever L/L/L modifications the OP requires? For like $950?
[/quote]
You can order them with grip, shaft, length, lie. But if the fitting spec requires a specific swing weight, then no. What if the shaft length needs to be 1/2 under standard, but he requires a swing weight of D8?
I don't know if Callaway has the options for custom build with these specs. They might.
[/quote]

I don't know about Callaway, but I specified swing weight when I ordered from Adams and it was no problem. I would think the big mfg's all work about the same way.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='RRstein82' timestamp='1398611455' post='9180511']
[color=#000000][size=3]Went and got a full fitting a couple of weeks ago: outside, off grass, using trackman. Tried about 6 different shafts and an equal number of heads. Ended up being recommended the Callaway Apex or Ap2 (somewhat surprisingly, I LOVED the apex, and will be going with that one), and KBS Tour-V shafts. Loved everything about, only issue is price. The Apex heads, custom built KBS Tour V's (something about specific frequency, stiffness, etc.) and grips comes out to close to $1500. This is about 50% more than I'd pay going strictly off the rack from a big box store, or about $300-$400 more if I buy from the fitter but have stock shafts (still to my specs, but not custom built). Basically I'm either paying $75 per shaft or $20 . . . [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]My question is whether the fully custom built shafts are worth significant price increase. I want to play the best I can, but of course I'm not getting paid to play. If fully custom clubs could lead to 4, 5, etc. strokes off per round, than I'm game; if it's something I'll barely notice however, that's a lot of cash compared to off the rack. [/size][/color]
[/quote]

Aren't you glad you asked the question?

There have been 1000's of posts on WRX about this subject, over the years. The most vociferous supporters of "fitting" are folks who earn their living from it ... does that surprise you?

I've yet to see a single poster quantify any significant improvement in scoring, as a result of a club fitting. As a matter of fact, there have probably been more posts by folks who were fitted and then found their scores went the wrong way. Just last week on here, a fitting proponent claimed there was an "academic study" that supported club fitting. I asked him to show it to us ... we're still waiting!

You said it would be worth the money if your score was going to drop 4 or 5 strokes a round? That leads me to believe you're probably a mid-handicapper? 12-16? For the sake of discussion purposes, let's assume you're in that range (if you were low handicapper, you'd really know how tough the game is and know you can't "buy" 4 or 5 strokes).

If you read Sean2's post, you'll see that he has non-typical physical dimensions and some tweaking from "average" helped his play. There are situations like his and the vast majority of them can be solved by simply fitting oneself with the PING Color/Fitting Chart you can find online. (If I'm not mistaken, Sean2 is playing clubs that he ordered direct from TaylorMade, with his preferred tweaks and no intervention from a "fitter"). Will that give you sufficient information to make an informed decision? Most recreational golfers could never tell if his iron length was 1/2" too long or short. How many times have you choked up on a golf club? Did it change your golfing life? What about Lie angle? Very few golfers could distinguish a lie change of a degree up or down from "average". It's said that hardly anyone can distinguish a swingweight change of less than 2 or so.

What's a fitter going to really be fitting you to? Today's swing? Next week's swing? What if you prefer last October's swing? As recreational golfers, our swings are so inconsistent it varies from hole to hole. How can anyone fit a moving target with such specificity?

Fitters will tell you all about "dynamic lie fitting". Your proper lie is a function of your physical dimensions, not your off-plane golf swing. Get the lie that fits your body dimension, so your swing is more likely to conform to the proper swing plane.

Now that we have length and lie out of the way, let's go to shafts!

What's important about shafts? Mostly 2 things: Flex pattern and weight. Ahhh ... but what about "flex" you ask? Not so important.

Shaft flex, weight & bend profile is significant in a 44"-46" Driver, almost irrelevant in a 35" PW. The truth is, the average golfer probably couldn't tell if the flex of his 8 iron - PW was off as much as a whole flex (as flex is usually thought of). The shorter the club, the less significant flex is. Some shafts may hit the ball higher or lower, but that's more about flex profile than stiffness.

Didn't you mention "frequency (flex) matching" ? Hmmm ... that's a good one! What's your fitter going to match your flex to and what's his flex progression going to be? That's a hard question to quantify, because it's meaningless unless someone is trying to sell you some Black Magic. The "traditional" flex progression is about 4 cpm's per club ... there's not a person on the face of the earth that could distinguish a flex change of 4 cpm's.

Then again, how's your club fitter going to do a CPM (flex) match? If I'm not mistaken, Apex (non-pro model) take parallel tip shafts ... didn't you say you were fitted into KBS Pro V's? They only come in Taper Tip shafts (at least according to the KBS website). Taper Tip shafts can't be Frequency matched ... no how, no way (actually, there is a way, but the builder would probably have to buy 500 shafts and try them out, one by one).

BTW, how's he going to get those Taper Tip (.355) shafts, into your Parallel Tip (.370) hosels? He's going put shims into your brand new irons, that's how. How would you like it if you paid Callaway $1000 for clubs and found out they didn't use the shafts the clubs were originally designed for?

Speaking of which, here's what he's going to do to your brand new irons:

When they arrive, he's going to use a torch to pull off the heads. He'll save the shafts, because he'll either sell them to another customer or sell them on eBay.

Hopefully, he won't scorch your shiny new irons when he puts the torch to them.

Then he's going install your new shafts, that he really can't frequency match, in spite of what he told you. What about the ferrules? The fancy, shiny plastic pieces where the shaft meets the club head? OEM's custom order those to fit their clubs. Your clubmaker is going to use a generic ferrule and then use emory paper to sand it down so it sort of fits.

Then he's going to adjust the lie? Stick a wrench on the hosel and bend it? I hope he's careful! Of course keep in mind, that changing your lie angle is going to change the bounce the OEM built into the iron. Of course, your fitter probably knows way more about irons, than Callaway or Titleist !

Here's what you really need to know about getting the right clubs for you.

Decide how much forgiveness you need and check out various UGI, SGI, GI or other clubs. Find a few you like the look of.

Take a look at the PING online fitting chart and get a clue on length and lie.

Go hit a few clubs you like the look of, paying particular attention to how well you hit the ball and the way the club feels.

Weight & balance are probably the most significant part of proper club fitting. It can't always be quantified, you have to feel it and see the results.

& don't believe all the nonsense you read about me MOI matching my clubs! I play (3) different sets of clubs. (3) different clubheads. (2) different shafts. (2) different lengths. (3) different MOI matches. I don't even have a lie machine, because I don't need one.

Now the real whammy!

You'll see all these posts saying how you should listen to someone like Tom Wishon ... you should, but read what he actually says, not what the typical club fitter tells you he says.

You'll find some of Tom Wishon's wisdom right here: http://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wishon-talking-to-wrx-readers-10-myths-about-shafts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/

Tom Wishon knows more about golf clubs than most anyone alive. Read Tom's writings for yourself. Tom says fitting is important, but not in the sense that the average club-fitter applies it. Tom has said on this site, the "FLO/Spining" thing is generally of no value these days. He says that "flex" is one of the least important characteristics of a shaft. He freely admits that the goal of many fittings is to help a golfer hit the ball better using improper mechanics, swing plane, grip and posture.

BTW, I have never ONCE heard Tom Wishon recommend buying OEM clubs, taking them apart and "customizing" them. Tom sells components that are customizable in various ways, to suit any possible needs.

If you want to get fitted for a Driver that maximizes your distance and accuracy, go for it! Do you want to get the right wedge? See a professional instructor who has a clue.

Do you want to fit your irons to your mistakes or be fitted in a way that will help you improve your game?

You should be able to buy a set of clubs that suits your needs, directly from an OEM and [b]use the $500 you save, to take lessons from a PGA Professional.[/b]

[RRstein82]

[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398625353' post='9181601']
One of the things that got lost in this thread.
The OP has to order the golf clubs with the golf shaft already built. The Apex or the AP2 do not come as components. Then, a club builder has to disassemble the clubs and rebuild them to the exact fitting specs, and tolerances.
The OP is asking if it is worth having this work done. He not asking about the up charge on the shafts.
[/quote]

Yup, thanks for catching that. Like Grumpy said, the price with the Apex heads and the KBS Tour V shafts (with length and lie fit to my specs) is the same as if I bought them from Golfsmith (if anything it's a $10 upcharge, which is manageable). The huge price jump comes from "custom building" shafts, i.e., frequency matching, creating a shaft stiffness that (allegedly) specifically tailored to me.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='RRstein82' timestamp='1398639259' post='9182863']
The huge price jump comes from "custom building" shafts, i.e., frequency matching, creating a shaft stiffness that (allegedly) specifically tailored to me.
[/quote]

That is biggest bunch of baloney I've ever heard.

You have someone trying to fleece you, big time.

[color=#282828]I can't wait to hear all you experts explain how the OP's club-fitter is going to Frequency Match those Taper Tip shafts.

[/color]

[PeanutsDaddy]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1398639576' post='9182899']
[quote name='RRstein82' timestamp='1398639259' post='9182863']
The huge price jump comes from "custom building" shafts, i.e., frequency matching, creating a shaft stiffness that (allegedly) specifically tailored to me.
[/quote]

That is biggest bunch of baloney I've ever heard.

You have someone trying to fleece you, big time.
[/quote]

But let's not paint all fitter's with the same brush. The fitter I worked with was a gentleman who delivered on every promise he made, worked within my budget, and provided a product of exceptional quality. What more can you ask for?

To the OP, I hope you can find a person of strong moral fiber and technical expertise who can assist you in your purchase (whether it's an 'off the rack' or custom built set).

[campion]

I would say get fit regardless of what swing you bring to the fitting that day. Even the most basic of fittings will improve your ability to hit the center of the face and increase your enjoyment of the game. Also like it's been stated before your swing is more repeatable then you think.

I've played for a long time and have always played what I call an of an off the rack fitting. (Ping color charts/golf galaxy/ or other big box fitting) Last year I went for real fitting and then had them custom build my clubs. For me there has been a noticible difference in performance and scoring, and more importantly an over all enjoyment of the game. I would say and if you can afford the extra money to get the moi/frequency match/ etc. and try it, it's the only way to know. But there is no magic to it, if you but a junk swing on it your still not going to like the end result.

I would say be cautious and shop around for your fitter. There are fitters who are able to get components from OEMs which will save you some money, and like anything else in the world some are more honest then others. My brother in-law went to a top 100 fitter who took him to the cleaners, spent a lot of money on clubs he did not like and did not perform. Took him to the guy who built mine, who rebuilt his and last time we played he struck the ball so well and consistent he was literally giggling and drooling on himself.

[Grumpy bumpy]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1398639576' post='9182899']
[quote name='RRstein82' timestamp='1398639259' post='9182863']
The huge price jump comes from "custom building" shafts, i.e., frequency matching, creating a shaft stiffness that (allegedly) specifically tailored to me.
[/quote]

That is biggest bunch of baloney I've ever heard.

You have someone trying to fleece you, big time.

[color=#282828]I can't wait to hear all you experts explain how the OP's club-fitter is going to Frequency Match those Taper Tip shafts.

[/color]
[/quote]
Hi. There are techniques, as you are aware, to frequency match shafts. One of the ways is to tip equalize the frequency of the shafts. Some have taken this another step, and perform the same procedure on taper tip shafts. It requires, some times, reaming out the hosel to .370 and using shims.
Having this ability, gives us the advantage of fitting, with taper tip shafts instead of parallel tip, and being able to match them.
There are advantages and disadvantages to taper tip shafts, as there are to parallel tip, as there are to ascending weight sets. But this is all based on fitting specs, asking the right questions of the customer.
The choice in which shaft, should not negate the ability to have them all matched. There is a way, and it works.

[RichieHunt]

Good question.

First, I think it depends a lot on the club fitter. To be honest, 90% of club fitters I've come across I've been disappointed in. I'm a scratch golfer and I don't think these club fitters:

1) Know much about the golf swing

2) Know much about the process involved with a golfer that wants to improve their swing.

Most club fitters try to fit to that specific swing. I think my largest gripe is the club fitters that get the effective lie angle very upright. That is likely to steepen the shaft plane in the downswing and will see the golfer being rewarded for their steep shaft plane early on. So what happens? The golfer continues to have a steep shaft plane until it gets so bad that they start making more and more compensations and their swing and ballstriking just gets worse and worse.

I think not enough club fitters understand MOI matching which I feel is critical to proper fitting for better ballstriking. Almost none of them understand balancing the club nor care to. I think the role of bounce angle in wedges and irons is completely neglected by most club fitters. And there's much more.

I've gone to club fitters where I've paid 66% more than retail and it was basically to get the shafts pured and frequency matched and they had virtually no impact on my game.

Even still, a truly great club fitter charging 66% more than retail is a bit much for me. I do understand that the club fitting business is not what it was and with limited customer base you need to charge more. But essentially I got to the point where I figured I was better off learning as much as I could about equipment engineering and club fitting as I could and build my own clubs. Thankfully, Tom Wishon has been there to filter out the nonsense and highlight the truths of equipment fitting. And in the end, it cost me less to do it this way and I get to hit equipment that has never fitted my swing any better.







RH

[Grumpy bumpy]

Ritchie, you bring up a good point about MOI matching. Finding the proper MOI during the fitting, and the building a set of clubs to that MOI, is not something the OEMs are doing as of yet.
And, you are right, that most "fitters" do not understand how to fit, based on the swing . But the majority of fitting is done in box stores, or demo days, or by a Pro at a golf course.
How can you expect a proper fitting to take place in an hour? How do you cover all the details, ask the questions, and perform the testing?

Then, when someone says, they want fitted as you describe, or that they want clubs built they way you describe, we, fitters, that are capable of this, get called crooks, or selling pixie dust, or a magic pill.

So, how many of you criticize the clubs and the expense from Kwok. Or from Dana. Or from Howard?
Maybe, the fitter and club builder the OP visited, is of that caliber. Would you criticize him for spending the money if Joe was building his clubs?

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398646275' post='9183641']


So, how many of you criticize the clubs and the expense from Kwok. Or from Dana. Or from Howard?
Maybe, the fitter and club builder the OP visited, is of that caliber. Would you criticize him for spending the money if Joe was building his clubs?
[/quote]

Neither Dana nor Howard would tell someone they were going to frequency match taper tip shafts.

& I'm sure there are alternate opinions, but I know of no one else of Dana's caliber.

[ghabanos]

[quote name='st997777' timestamp='1398629570' post='9181957']
[quote name='hawkgolfer' timestamp='1398614279' post='9180757']
These clubs will not cost that much if you contact discount dans
[/quote]

Another vote for Discount Dans.
[/quote]
Amen.

[Shaftology]

[quote name='RRstein82' timestamp='1398611455' post='9180511']

[color=#000000][size=3]Went and got a full fitting a couple of weeks ago: outside, off grass, using trackman. Tried about 6 different shafts and an equal number of heads. Ended up being recommended the Callaway Apex or Ap2 (somewhat surprisingly, I LOVED the apex, and will be going with that one), and KBS Tour-V shafts. Loved everything about, only issue is price. The Apex heads, custom built KBS Tour V's (something about specific frequency, stiffness, etc.) and grips comes out to close to $1500. This is about 50% more than I'd pay going strictly off the rack from a big box store, or about $300-$400 more if I buy from the fitter but have stock shafts (still to my specs, but not custom built). Basically I'm either paying $75 per shaft or $20 . . . [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]My question is whether the fully custom built shafts are worth significant price increase. I want to play the best I can, but of course I'm not getting paid to play. If fully custom clubs could lead to 4, 5, etc. strokes off per round, than I'm game; if it's something I'll barely notice however, that's a lot of cash compared to off the rack. [/size][/color]
[/quote]
A little late to the party here but will give you my take. Yes, that is a chunk of change to pay for a custom fit and custom built set versus buying off the rack. Can it help your game? If there is something significantly different in your swing, strength and stature, than the standard 5'10" male golfer, then YES, this can be a huge advantage to you. It is unfortunate but even a custom fit but "stock" order can yield some very poor results in terms of consistency of the clubs you receive, regardless of the manufacturer. If you are a VERY sophisticated buyer, you can probably get close to what you need by ordering very specific things like loft/lie/length swingweight, hard/soft step, etc. While some on this forum think custom fitting is a waste, at least with custom fit and custom built clubs you are getting a CONSISTENT set of clubs that match your swing dynamics. Is the extra $400 worth it to you? If the fitter offers a 100% satisfaction guarantee and lifetime fitting (like we do) then I would say yes. Unfortunately, the CONSISTENCY of clubs being delivered to you with a stock fit is not all that great and can result in at least a couple of your clubs not performing as expected. Will they knock 4-5 strokes off your game? Hard to say. If the consistent set of clubs gives you more confidence then I am sure you will reduce your score.

As for other comments on this thread. Yes, you can build a set of frequency matched irons with taper shafts but it is a pain in the butt because I have never seen a consistent set of taper tip shafts. You trim a little, hard step, soft step and worry about the integrity of the set. I can purchase heads only from Callaway because I am a Proponent dealer. That saves a step in the process of having to pull the shafts but Callaway pricing rules still require that I adhere to their MAP pricing. I believe firmly that if I can put a consistent SET of clubs in my golfers hands that match their swing dynamics, they will improve faster than if they take the same money and put it into lessons. Hard to improve your swing when you are playing with clubs that do not match your swing. Ask any archer, bowler, shooter, fly fisherman, hockey player or baseball player if equipment makes a difference. Golf is even crazier as you need 14 clubs instead of one racket, bat, or stick.

[spagett34]

With knowledge gained from information online and through this community (fitters included). As well as knowing your game day by day AND being honest with yourself. You can certainly fit yourself.

I do believe the best way to go is if you could go multiple times to a fitter so they can see what changes day to day and give you something that will work best more often than not.

Even if you are fitted perfectly, it can take a long time to get used to a new set of irons.

[JCAG]

There are some custom club fitters, clubmakers whose business model is to fit a person for OEM clubs. Order the clubs (they cannot get just the components) then take them apart and blueprint/rebuild/modify them to the exact specs of the fit. It is a sound, albeit pricey, business model. It most certainly is not a rip off but not everyone is a customer.

Some people pay $100 for a custom made dress shirts. Some buy George dress shirts for $15 at Walmart.

Some pay $6 for a knock off head and pair it with a $4 shaft and a $2 grip to make a $96 set of irons.

Some pay $750 for an OEM set of irons.

Some pay $1,500 for a truly custom fit and made set of irons.

[size=4][b][color=#000000]De Gustibus Non Est Disputandum[/color][/b][/size]

[size=4][color=#000000]EDIT[/color][/size]

[size=4][color=#000000]Look at the poll elsewhere on this chat. 87% of those answering believe they could fit themselves if they had the right equipment. This chat is not truly representative of the golf market. No one in this market should base their business on this, or any other golf chat. [/color][/size]

[Sean2]

[quote name='accufitgolf' timestamp='1398689787' post='9185941']
There are some custom club fitters, clubmakers whose business model is to fit a person for OEM clubs. Order the clubs (they cannot get just the components) then take them apart and blueprint/rebuild/modify them to the exact specs of the fit. It is a sound, albeit pricey, business model. It most certainly is not a rip off but not everyone is a customer.

Some people pay $100 for a custom made dress shirts. Some buy George dress shirts for $15 at Walmart.

Some pay $6 for a knock off head and pair it with a $4 shaft and a $2 grip to make a $96 set of irons.

Some pay $750 for an OEM set of irons.

Some pay $1,500 for a truly custom fit and made set of irons.

[size=4][b][color=#000000]De Gustibus Non Est Disputandum[/color][/b][/size]
[/quote]

As to your Latin reference: that's true...it all depends what you want.

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398646275' post='9183641']
Ritchie, you bring up a good point about MOI matching. Finding the proper MOI during the fitting, and the building a set of clubs to that MOI, is not something the OEMs are doing as of yet.
And, you are right, that most "fitters" do not understand how to fit, based on the swing . But the majority of fitting is done in box stores, or demo days, or by a Pro at a golf course.
How can you expect a proper fitting to take place in an hour? How do you cover all the details, ask the questions, and perform the testing?
[/quote]

I think a big part of the issue is that the OEM's have made it appear that they can basically custom fit clubs for you without the cost or the time. People are always seeking out convenience, so they take this route. And it is killing the custom fitting shops.

I honestly don't think custom fitting should take that long, outside of fitting for a putter by Edel because they are trying to get every detail perfect and the wrench system and the fitter having to squat down and adjust things is going to take time.

I think what makes the process longer for fitters is often due to their lack of understanding MOI matching and balancing. Too easy for a club to feel dramatically different even thought the swingweight is the same. That will require more indecisiveness as to what the golfer wants and works best for them.





RH

[trhode]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1398639576' post='9182899']
[quote name='RRstein82' timestamp='1398639259' post='9182863']
The huge price jump comes from "custom building" shafts, i.e., frequency matching, creating a shaft stiffness that (allegedly) specifically tailored to me.
[/quote]

That is biggest bunch of baloney I've ever heard.

You have someone trying to fleece you, big time.

[color=#282828]I can't wait to hear all you experts explain how the OP's club-fitter is going to Frequency Match those Taper Tip shafts.

[/color]
[/quote]

KBS taper tip shafts can all be trimmed up to 1". So, this is actually possible. But, being an expert on club building, you already should have known that.

[Grumpy bumpy]

[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1398694116' post='9186435']
[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398646275' post='9183641']
Ritchie, you bring up a good point about MOI matching. Finding the proper MOI during the fitting, and the building a set of clubs to that MOI, is not something the OEMs are doing as of yet.
And, you are right, that most "fitters" do not understand how to fit, based on the swing . But the majority of fitting is done in box stores, or demo days, or by a Pro at a golf course.
How can you expect a proper fitting to take place in an hour? How do you cover all the details, ask the questions, and perform the testing?
[/quote]

I think a big part of the issue is that the OEM's have made it appear that they can basically custom fit clubs for you without the cost or the time. People are always seeking out convenience, so they take this route. And it is killing the custom fitting shops.

I honestly don't think custom fitting should take that long, outside of fitting for a putter by Edel because they are trying to get every detail perfect and the wrench system and the fitter having to squat down and adjust things is going to take time.

I think what makes the process longer for fitters is often due to their lack of understanding MOI matching and balancing. Too easy for a club to feel dramatically different even thought the swingweight is the same. That will require more indecisiveness as to what the golfer wants and works best for them.





RH
[/quote]
Well, Ritchie , Youre right, the small shops like mine, are going under. I hear about it all the time.
So, here is my question to you. You stated that you don't feel like a custom fitting should take that long? With your exception to the rules being for an Edel putter fitting?
My club fittings take about 3 hours. Is this to long for you? There is no indecisiveness about my process.
I am not sure how long, you think, my fitting should take?
I answered a phone call this morning, from one of my customers, asking why my fitting takes 3 hours, when a writer on GolfWRX, says it shouldn't.
You think, that if the process takes longer than an hour, for fitting, it is because the fitter has lack of knowledge and understanding?

My putter fittings take about 1 hour, unless I need to give a lesson during the process.
But, there is no indecisiveness on my part.

Comments like yours are what drives, people to believe they got fitted properly on a Box Store, by someone working part time.
You just made a statement that because my fittings take longer, it must be because I have a lack of knowledge and understanding.
And some people look at the number of posts you make, and automatically assume you are an authority of some sort.
I just spent 2 hours on the phone trying to correct, the misconception you just created.
What a shame.

[Kadin 25]

"You think, that if the process takes longer than an hour, for fitting, it is because the fitter has lack of knowledge and understanding? "

Oh Gawd...I hope not..my fitting with Tom Wishon lasted 3 days.

[neilc]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1398637486' post='9182661']
[quote name='RRstein82' timestamp='1398611455' post='9180511']
[color=#000000][size=3]Went and got a full fitting a couple of weeks ago: outside, off grass, using trackman. Tried about 6 different shafts and an equal number of heads. Ended up being recommended the Callaway Apex or Ap2 (somewhat surprisingly, I LOVED the apex, and will be going with that one), and KBS Tour-V shafts. Loved everything about, only issue is price. The Apex heads, custom built KBS Tour V's (something about specific frequency, stiffness, etc.) and grips comes out to close to $1500. This is about 50% more than I'd pay going strictly off the rack from a big box store, or about $300-$400 more if I buy from the fitter but have stock shafts (still to my specs, but not custom built). Basically I'm either paying $75 per shaft or $20 . . . [/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3]My question is whether the fully custom built shafts are worth significant price increase. I want to play the best I can, but of course I'm not getting paid to play. If fully custom clubs could lead to 4, 5, etc. strokes off per round, than I'm game; if it's something I'll barely notice however, that's a lot of cash compared to off the rack. [/size][/color]
[/quote]

Aren't you glad you asked the question?

There have been 1000's of posts on WRX about this subject, over the years. The most vociferous supporters of "fitting" are folks who earn their living from it ... does that surprise you?

I've yet to see a single poster quantify any significant improvement in scoring, as a result of a club fitting. As a matter of fact, there have probably been more posts by folks who were fitted and then found their scores went the wrong way. Just last week on here, a fitting proponent claimed there was an "academic study" that supported club fitting. I asked him to show it to us ... we're still waiting!

You said it would be worth the money if your score was going to drop 4 or 5 strokes a round? That leads me to believe you're probably a mid-handicapper? 12-16? For the sake of discussion purposes, let's assume you're in that range (if you were low handicapper, you'd really know how tough the game is and know you can't "buy" 4 or 5 strokes).

If you read Sean2's post, you'll see that he has non-typical physical dimensions and some tweaking from "average" helped his play. There are situations like his and the vast majority of them can be solved by simply fitting oneself with the PING Color/Fitting Chart you can find online. (If I'm not mistaken, Sean2 is playing clubs that he ordered direct from TaylorMade, with his preferred tweaks and no intervention from a "fitter"). Will that give you sufficient information to make an informed decision? Most recreational golfers could never tell if his iron length was 1/2" too long or short. How many times have you choked up on a golf club? Did it change your golfing life? What about Lie angle? Very few golfers could distinguish a lie change of a degree up or down from "average". It's said that hardly anyone can distinguish a swingweight change of less than 2 or so.

What's a fitter going to really be fitting you to? Today's swing? Next week's swing? What if you prefer last October's swing? As recreational golfers, our swings are so inconsistent it varies from hole to hole. How can anyone fit a moving target with such specificity?

Fitters will tell you all about "dynamic lie fitting". Your proper lie is a function of your physical dimensions, not your off-plane golf swing. Get the lie that fits your body dimension, so your swing is more likely to conform to the proper swing plane.

Now that we have length and lie out of the way, let's go to shafts!

What's important about shafts? Mostly 2 things: Flex pattern and weight. Ahhh ... but what about "flex" you ask? Not so important.

Shaft flex, weight & bend profile is significant in a 44"-46" Driver, almost irrelevant in a 35" PW. The truth is, the average golfer probably couldn't tell if the flex of his 8 iron - PW was off as much as a whole flex (as flex is usually thought of). The shorter the club, the less significant flex is. Some shafts may hit the ball higher or lower, but that's more about flex profile than stiffness.

Didn't you mention "frequency (flex) matching" ? Hmmm ... that's a good one! What's your fitter going to match your flex to and what's his flex progression going to be? That's a hard question to quantify, because it's meaningless unless someone is trying to sell you some Black Magic. The "traditional" flex progression is about 4 cpm's per club ... there's not a person on the face of the earth that could distinguish a flex change of 4 cpm's.

Then again, how's your club fitter going to do a CPM (flex) match? If I'm not mistaken, Apex (non-pro model) take parallel tip shafts ... didn't you say you were fitted into KBS Pro V's? They only come in Taper Tip shafts (at least according to the KBS website). Taper Tip shafts can't be Frequency matched ... no how, no way (actually, there is a way, but the builder would probably have to buy 500 shafts and try them out, one by one).

BTW, how's he going to get those Taper Tip (.355) shafts, into your Parallel Tip (.370) hosels? He's going put shims into your brand new irons, that's how. How would you like it if you paid Callaway $1000 for clubs and found out they didn't use the shafts the clubs were originally designed for?

Speaking of which, here's what he's going to do to your brand new irons:

When they arrive, he's going to use a torch to pull off the heads. He'll save the shafts, because he'll either sell them to another customer or sell them on eBay.

Hopefully, he won't scorch your shiny new irons when he puts the torch to them.

Then he's going install your new shafts, that he really can't frequency match, in spite of what he told you. What about the ferrules? The fancy, shiny plastic pieces where the shaft meets the club head? OEM's custom order those to fit their clubs. Your clubmaker is going to use a generic ferrule and then use emory paper to sand it down so it sort of fits.

Then he's going to adjust the lie? Stick a wrench on the hosel and bend it? I hope he's careful! Of course keep in mind, that changing your lie angle is going to change the bounce the OEM built into the iron. Of course, your fitter probably knows way more about irons, than Callaway or Titleist !

Here's what you really need to know about getting the right clubs for you.

Decide how much forgiveness you need and check out various UGI, SGI, GI or other clubs. Find a few you like the look of.

Take a look at the PING online fitting chart and get a clue on length and lie.

Go hit a few clubs you like the look of, paying particular attention to how well you hit the ball and the way the club feels.

Weight & balance are probably the most significant part of proper club fitting. It can't always be quantified, you have to feel it and see the results.

& don't believe all the nonsense you read about me MOI matching my clubs! I play (3) different sets of clubs. (3) different clubheads. (2) different shafts. (2) different lengths. (3) different MOI matches. I don't even have a lie machine, because I don't need one.

Now the real whammy!

You'll see all these posts saying how you should listen to someone like Tom Wishon ... you should, but read what he actually says, not what the typical club fitter tells you he says.

You'll find some of Tom Wishon's wisdom right here: http://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wishon-talking-to-wrx-readers-10-myths-about-shafts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/

Tom Wishon knows more about golf clubs than most anyone alive. Read Tom's writings for yourself. Tom says fitting is important, but not in the sense that the average club-fitter applies it. Tom has said on this site, the "FLO/Spining" thing is generally of no value these days. He says that "flex" is one of the least important characteristics of a shaft. He freely admits that the goal of many fittings is to help a golfer hit the ball better using improper mechanics, swing plane, grip and posture.

BTW, I have never ONCE heard Tom Wishon recommend buying OEM clubs, taking them apart and "customizing" them. Tom sells components that are customizable in various ways, to suit any possible needs.

If you want to get fitted for a Driver that maximizes your distance and accuracy, go for it! Do you want to get the right wedge? See a professional instructor who has a clue.

Do you want to fit your irons to your mistakes or be fitted in a way that will help you improve your game?

You should be able to buy a set of clubs that suits your needs, directly from an OEM and [b]use the $500 you save, to take lessons from a PGA Professional.[/b]
[/quote]

Changing lie angle does not change the bounce angle,.changing loft does?

typo?

[RichieHunt]

[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398697079' post='9186757']
[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1398694116' post='9186435']
[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398646275' post='9183641']
Ritchie, you bring up a good point about MOI matching. Finding the proper MOI during the fitting, and the building a set of clubs to that MOI, is not something the OEMs are doing as of yet.
And, you are right, that most "fitters" do not understand how to fit, based on the swing . But the majority of fitting is done in box stores, or demo days, or by a Pro at a golf course.
How can you expect a proper fitting to take place in an hour? How do you cover all the details, ask the questions, and perform the testing?
[/quote]

I think a big part of the issue is that the OEM's have made it appear that they can basically custom fit clubs for you without the cost or the time. People are always seeking out convenience, so they take this route. And it is killing the custom fitting shops.

I honestly don't think custom fitting should take that long, outside of fitting for a putter by Edel because they are trying to get every detail perfect and the wrench system and the fitter having to squat down and adjust things is going to take time.

I think what makes the process longer for fitters is often due to their lack of understanding MOI matching and balancing. Too easy for a club to feel dramatically different even thought the swingweight is the same. That will require more indecisiveness as to what the golfer wants and works best for them.





RH
[/quote]
Well, Ritchie , Youre right, the small shops like mine, are going under. I hear about it all the time.
So, here is my question to you. You stated that you don't feel like a custom fitting should take that long? With your exception to the rules being for an Edel putter fitting?
My club fittings take about 3 hours. Is this to long for you? There is no indecisiveness about my process.
I am not sure how long, you think, my fitting should take?
I answered a phone call this morning, from one of my customers, asking why my fitting takes 3 hours, when a writer on GolfWRX, says it shouldn't.
You think, that if the process takes longer than an hour, for fitting, it is because the fitter has lack of knowledge and understanding?

My putter fittings take about 1 hour, unless I need to give a lesson during the process.
But, there is no indecisiveness on my part.

Comments like yours are what drives, people to believe they got fitted properly on a Box Store, by someone working part time.
You just made a statement that because my fittings take longer, it must be because I have a lack of knowledge and understanding.
And some people look at the number of posts you make, and automatically assume you are an authority of some sort.
I just spent 2 hours on the phone trying to correct, the misconception you just created.
What a shame.
[/quote]

Your [i]'I just spent 2 hours on the phone trying to correct, the misconception you just created'[/i] is YOUR opinion. I am stating something that is MY opinion based on MY experience and MY knowledge. So your opinion that I have created a misconception is no more 'right' or 'wrong' than my opinion that it shouldn't take more than an hour. If you and your customer cannot understand that it is MY opinion from MY experience and don't understand how opinions work...then I don't know what to tell you.

Also, from MY experience and having talked to a variety of golfers, I don't know any that are interested in a 3-hour fitting. For starters, hitting that many golf balls is tiresome for a huge chunk of the golfing population. And people have other stuff to do.

In MY opinion from having discussed this with people, they are going to go to big box retailers for club fitting if their alternatives are a 3-hour fitting.






RH

[dirthead]

IMHO, getting fit is well worth the money. Taking it to the level the the builder removes the shafts, and installs the same brand/model of shaft, just frequency matched, for an additional $500 is not worth the money. Just order directly from Callaway the length, loft, lie, and SW that you were fit for. Taking it to the minute detail of exactly FM'ing the shafts is not worth the coin. 95% of tour pros probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference, so I'm sure none of us would be able to either.

[Shaftology]

[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1398708123' post='9188201']
[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398697079' post='9186757']
[quote name='RichieHunt' timestamp='1398694116' post='9186435']
[quote name='Grumpy bumpy' timestamp='1398646275' post='9183641']
Ritchie, you bring up a good point about MOI matching. Finding the proper MOI during the fitting, and the building a set of clubs to that MOI, is not something the OEMs are doing as of yet.
And, you are right, that most "fitters" do not understand how to fit, based on the swing . But the majority of fitting is done in box stores, or demo days, or by a Pro at a golf course.
How can you expect a proper fitting to take place in an hour? How do you cover all the details, ask the questions, and perform the testing?
[/quote]

I think a big part of the issue is that the OEM's have made it appear that they can basically custom fit clubs for you without the cost or the time. People are always seeking out convenience, so they take this route. And it is killing the custom fitting shops.

I honestly don't think custom fitting should take that long, outside of fitting for a putter by Edel because they are trying to get every detail perfect and the wrench system and the fitter having to squat down and adjust things is going to take time.

I think what makes the process longer for fitters is often due to their lack of understanding MOI matching and balancing. Too easy for a club to feel dramatically different even thought the swingweight is the same. That will require more indecisiveness as to what the golfer wants and works best for them.





RH
[/quote]
Well, Ritchie , Youre right, the small shops like mine, are going under. I hear about it all the time.
So, here is my question to you. You stated that you don't feel like a custom fitting should take that long? With your exception to the rules being for an Edel putter fitting?
My club fittings take about 3 hours. Is this to long for you? There is no indecisiveness about my process.
I am not sure how long, you think, my fitting should take?
I answered a phone call this morning, from one of my customers, asking why my fitting takes 3 hours, when a writer on GolfWRX, says it shouldn't.
You think, that if the process takes longer than an hour, for fitting, it is because the fitter has lack of knowledge and understanding?

My putter fittings take about 1 hour, unless I need to give a lesson during the process.
But, there is no indecisiveness on my part.

Comments like yours are what drives, people to believe they got fitted properly on a Box Store, by someone working part time.
You just made a statement that because my fittings take longer, it must be because I have a lack of knowledge and understanding.
And some people look at the number of posts you make, and automatically assume you are an authority of some sort.
I just spent 2 hours on the phone trying to correct, the misconception you just created.
What a shame.
[/quote]

Your [i]'I just spent 2 hours on the phone trying to correct, the misconception you just created'[/i] is YOUR opinion. I am stating something that is MY opinion based on MY experience and MY knowledge. So your opinion that I have created a misconception is no more 'right' or 'wrong' than my opinion that it shouldn't take more than an hour. If you and your customer cannot understand that it is MY opinion from MY experience and don't understand how opinions work...then I don't know what to tell you.

Also, from MY experience and having talked to a variety of golfers, I don't know any that are interested in a 3-hour fitting. For starters, hitting that many golf balls is tiresome for a huge chunk of the golfing population. And people have other stuff to do.

In MY opinion from having discussed this with people, they are going to go to big box retailers for club fitting if their alternatives are a 3-hour fitting.






RH
[/quote]

Our poor OP. Just wanted to know whether the higher price for the custom fit and custom built clubs were worth the extra money and now we get dragged into a conflict over 1 hour or 3 hour fittings.

IMO, no matter how smart you are our knowledgeable you are, it will not be possible to do a complete bag fitting in an hour. You would barely get through the interview and capturing initial swing dynamics. The consultative part of the fitting includes everything from assessing the playability of current equipment (re-shafting may not be in the Big Box stores interest), to set makeup. Now, after we have done a fitting, our re-fit sessions are more timely because we already have all of the information we gathered from the first fitting. I understand the sense of urgency to get everything done quickly these days but good fittings take time.

[CallawayKid86]

For me, It is not worth it. I have just used trial and error (never bought new clubs) and finally have something that works for me. I am not playing for a paycheck so for me, I just want something that feels good shot after shot. You can also see from my signature, I am not playing the most expensive or recent equipment either. For my one time a month I get to play, they all suit me just fine.

[Grumpy bumpy]

Shaftology, thank you for your eloquence.

So. Once again. To the OP. Is it absolutely to your benefit to have your clubs built to the highest standards and tolerances possible.
You already know the benefits of getting properly fitted.

Don't let the opinions of unskilled, untrained people mis-guide you.

You want to find competent fitters and club builder, you can find them listed as authorized dealer, fitters, etc... On the manufactures website.
You can look at Kbs shafts and see authorize fitters, or true temper authorize performance fitting centers. Etc...
Good luck with your endeavors.

[WalleyeDave]

Pay for a fitting. Then order the clubs to fitting specs from DD. Problem solved, money saved.

And to the rest of the gentlemen with responses ( I think we know who) I could have just listened to my wife and her sisters argue about whatever they argue about. Blah blah blah blah It was entertaining.