DJ vs. DJ, MCS technique levels the playing field between athletic phenom and your average couch po

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1429316044' post='11384247']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1429294446' post='11382317']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1429293538' post='11382199']
[quote name='canadianrick' timestamp='1429292715' post='11382087']
I think it's ridiculous how ppl try to come up with a new way to swing the golf club that is supposed to be better then any other way out there, call it ultimate or whatever you want. I'm also not a fan of the heavy application of flightscope and scientific analytics of the golf swing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-numbers or anti-science, I'm evolutionist and not voodoo creationist, but the game of golf is highly dynamic. We can certainly study the swing to the point that we can optimize it under controlled conditions, but obviously the environmental conditions change all of the time in golf. Furthermore, our mental conditions change theoretically from shot to shot. To me, the optimized study of the golf swing is useless because the game of golf is completely uncontrollable. Experience and understanding our own bodies, our own swings and our own abilities is what matters. Grinding on a range to get a certain position, or launch angle is ridiculous because you will never be able to replicate the same conditions as the shot you just hit. It's a fleeting moment in time that will never happen again. The number of pros that claim to "teach" the game really only teach the science of the golf swing. Their use of flightscope and radars appears very professional, very detailed and scientific but its really just a ruse to make their services appear superior, to make the client feel like their are getting something special or more for their money. It's nothing but a marketing ploy to increase sales. everybody does it and only a few great ones don't need to.
[/quote]

I agree with much of what you say, candianrick - you can't reinvent the wheel, and modern golf instruction is as bogus as it gets. The way Bobby Jones, Sam Snead and Byron Nelson swung was good enough for Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan as well, and Tom Watson and Greg Norman. The way they swung was very mechanically-correct for the most part and didn't have to be reinvented.

The planted heel swing for example. No reason for it, and it does nothing but disrupt the natural kinetic chain of a proper swing.

The MCS swing theory is actually just going back to the old days of how the swing was performed with more mechanical-soundness, and the technique was more what you see in other sports.

Phil Mickelson, Bubba Watson, they're throwbacks to the classic age.

I find Trackman/Flightscope to be good tools to measure what one is doing, but using it to teach a swing? How do you do that? Telling someone to increase their launch angle because TM says it's too low doesn't actually teach you HOW to do that...

Digging it out of the dirt is better, but when you can start with certain fundamentals in your stance and mechanics, then it's much, much easier.

best,

DJ
[/quote]

What is the natural kinetic chain of the golf swing?
[/quote]

I would also be curious to hear your answer to this.
[/quote]

He won't answer.

[capt.murphy]

stop playing vocabulary and philosophy games and just explain what your secret 49.95 one weird trick is for the perfect "mechanically correct golf" swing.

[capt.murphy]

stop playing vocabulary and philosophy games and just explain what your secret 49.95 one weird trick is for the perfect "mechanically correct golf" swing.

[rpmgolfer]

Be the Ball

[rpmgolfer]

Be the Ball

[farmer]

I have read many threads with posts from people who have gone, in person, to both iteach and Monte. From my reading, they do not teach a "method". They teach each student what will work for that particular student. That is the biggest difference between genuine teachers and those pushing a product. I use Monte and iteach as examples, there are many fine teachers who post here.

[farmer]

I have read many threads with posts from people who have gone, in person, to both iteach and Monte. From my reading, they do not teach a "method". They teach each student what will work for that particular student. That is the biggest difference between genuine teachers and those pushing a product. I use Monte and iteach as examples, there are many fine teachers who post here.

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1429323077' post='11384815']
I have read many threads with posts from people who have gone, in person, to both iteach and Monte. From my reading, they do not teach a "method". They teach each student what will work for that particular student. That is the biggest difference between genuine teachers and those pushing a product. I use Monte and iteach as examples, there are many fine teachers who post here.
[/quote]

DJ Watts so often in this thread gets pigeon holed into an idea, then the idea is trounced as if DJ's philosophy is then defeated but to begin with, DJ never espouses a one swing for all and those familiar with him and his teaching know this.

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1429323077' post='11384815']
I have read many threads with posts from people who have gone, in person, to both iteach and Monte. From my reading, they do not teach a "method". They teach each student what will work for that particular student. That is the biggest difference between genuine teachers and those pushing a product. I use Monte and iteach as examples, there are many fine teachers who post here.
[/quote]

DJ Watts so often in this thread gets pigeon holed into an idea, then the idea is trounced as if DJ's philosophy is then defeated but to begin with, DJ never espouses a one swing for all and those familiar with him and his teaching know this.

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='QMany' timestamp='1429294600' post='11382339']
What is "modern golf instruction?"
[/quote]

Generally speaking in a nutshell as I see it, the modern swing teaching has golfers keeping the front foot planted and square (pointing forward) to restrict a full hip turn to which the golfer torques the spine to attain a full shoulder turn.

DJ and others observation is this practice is not only less than optimal for using the body as a lever system to obtain thrust as opposed to the classic or "floating pivot" system but its use leads to unnecessary aggravation on the joints and the back leading to injuries.

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='QMany' timestamp='1429294600' post='11382339']
What is "modern golf instruction?"
[/quote]

Generally speaking in a nutshell as I see it, the modern swing teaching has golfers keeping the front foot planted and square (pointing forward) to restrict a full hip turn to which the golfer torques the spine to attain a full shoulder turn.

DJ and others observation is this practice is not only less than optimal for using the body as a lever system to obtain thrust as opposed to the classic or "floating pivot" system but its use leads to unnecessary aggravation on the joints and the back leading to injuries.

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='spider' timestamp='1429287740' post='11381349']
[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1429220359' post='11376063']
[quote name='rpmgolfer' timestamp='1429213823' post='11375315']
They are different people. Cowpie is from NY I think and DJ is from the Toronto area.
[/quote]

Now I am confused. Am I or am I not DJ Watts?
[/quote]

Yeah me too? Why the games? Not funny not fun
[/quote]

We all might be the same person?

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='spider' timestamp='1429287740' post='11381349']
[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1429220359' post='11376063']
[quote name='rpmgolfer' timestamp='1429213823' post='11375315']
They are different people. Cowpie is from NY I think and DJ is from the Toronto area.
[/quote]

Now I am confused. Am I or am I not DJ Watts?
[/quote]

Yeah me too? Why the games? Not funny not fun
[/quote]

We all might be the same person?

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1429180760' post='11371439']
[quote name='Wooderson' timestamp='1429179517' post='11371409']
Some of y'all need to chill out. Your comments come across as petty ITeach
[/quote]

Then you haven't been around. Not petty at all but you're free to think what you want. I'm just tired of the constant lies these two come up with to try and push their product. If something is good it stands by itself.
[/quote]

A difference of opinion is not a lie. DJ and myself are both deeply passionate and honest in the truth of his work. Generally for the sake of the generally accepted protocols of good debate and conversation, you could say we are in illusion on such things but we are not knowingly propagating lies. Of course as evolution goes, if someone doesn't see or understand the next step, they would consider those who have evolved to be have lost their way and to be in illusion as those who have evolved see those operating under limited principles to as well be in illusion. Tragic but funny as well to think that folks were put to death for proposing a sun centered system.

[Chief Cowpie]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1429180760' post='11371439']
[quote name='Wooderson' timestamp='1429179517' post='11371409']
Some of y'all need to chill out. Your comments come across as petty ITeach
[/quote]

Then you haven't been around. Not petty at all but you're free to think what you want. I'm just tired of the constant lies these two come up with to try and push their product. If something is good it stands by itself.
[/quote]

A difference of opinion is not a lie. DJ and myself are both deeply passionate and honest in the truth of his work. Generally for the sake of the generally accepted protocols of good debate and conversation, you could say we are in illusion on such things but we are not knowingly propagating lies. Of course as evolution goes, if someone doesn't see or understand the next step, they would consider those who have evolved to be have lost their way and to be in illusion as those who have evolved see those operating under limited principles to as well be in illusion. Tragic but funny as well to think that folks were put to death for proposing a sun centered system.

[isaacbm]

I don't usually go into the instruction forum. This thread is a good example of why...

So as I see it: A rather big guy who has been an athlete most of his life is able to swing the club fairly fast.

Ok, so what? I have 10 different buddies who play hockey and baseball and all of them have been on trackman swinging 130 mph.

None of them can break par.

Show me a guy 5'6" who used to swing at 100 and now swings at 120 using "DJ's method" (whatever the hell that is, far as I can tell there's no mention of it in this thread) and then I might be impressed. Or at least as far as increasing speed is concerned.

But what are we even talking about here?

"BIG GUY SWING FAST"

Right on man!

[isaacbm]

I don't usually go into the instruction forum. This thread is a good example of why...

So as I see it: A rather big guy who has been an athlete most of his life is able to swing the club fairly fast.

Ok, so what? I have 10 different buddies who play hockey and baseball and all of them have been on trackman swinging 130 mph.

None of them can break par.

Show me a guy 5'6" who used to swing at 100 and now swings at 120 using "DJ's method" (whatever the hell that is, far as I can tell there's no mention of it in this thread) and then I might be impressed. Or at least as far as increasing speed is concerned.

But what are we even talking about here?

"BIG GUY SWING FAST"

Right on man!

[Kiwi2]

DJ Watts and Grant Waite comparison at impact with driver swing.

 

Chief Cowpie, what effect do you think DJ's loss of spine angle will have?

 

Why do you think this is "mechanically correct" ?

 

 

[Kiwi2]

DJ Watts and Grant Waite comparison at impact with driver swing.

 

Chief Cowpie, what effect do you think DJ's loss of spine angle will have?

 

Why do you think this is "mechanically correct" ?

 

 

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1429337535' post='11385815']
[quote name='QMany' timestamp='1429294600' post='11382339']
What is "modern golf instruction?"
[/quote]

Generally speaking in a nutshell as I see it, the modern swing teaching has golfers keeping the front foot planted and square (pointing forward) to restrict a full hip turn to which the golfer torques the spine to attain a full shoulder turn.

DJ and others observation is this practice is not only less than optimal for using the body as a lever system to obtain thrust as opposed to the classic or "floating pivot" system but its use leads to unnecessary aggravation on the joints and the back leading to injuries.
[/quote]

This is all you have right? Turn the hips and lift the heel is the whole thing and all dj knows to say. After 8 years of "research" that's all he could come up with.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1429337535' post='11385815']
[quote name='QMany' timestamp='1429294600' post='11382339']
What is "modern golf instruction?"
[/quote]

Generally speaking in a nutshell as I see it, the modern swing teaching has golfers keeping the front foot planted and square (pointing forward) to restrict a full hip turn to which the golfer torques the spine to attain a full shoulder turn.

DJ and others observation is this practice is not only less than optimal for using the body as a lever system to obtain thrust as opposed to the classic or "floating pivot" system but its use leads to unnecessary aggravation on the joints and the back leading to injuries.
[/quote]

This is all you have right? Turn the hips and lift the heel is the whole thing and all dj knows to say. After 8 years of "research" that's all he could come up with.

[TB07]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1429316544' post='11384293']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1429316044' post='11384247']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1429294446' post='11382317']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1429293538' post='11382199']
[quote name='canadianrick' timestamp='1429292715' post='11382087']
I think it's ridiculous how ppl try to come up with a new way to swing the golf club that is supposed to be better then any other way out there, call it ultimate or whatever you want. I'm also not a fan of the heavy application of flightscope and scientific analytics of the golf swing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-numbers or anti-science, I'm evolutionist and not voodoo creationist, but the game of golf is highly dynamic. We can certainly study the swing to the point that we can optimize it under controlled conditions, but obviously the environmental conditions change all of the time in golf. Furthermore, our mental conditions change theoretically from shot to shot. To me, the optimized study of the golf swing is useless because the game of golf is completely uncontrollable. Experience and understanding our own bodies, our own swings and our own abilities is what matters. Grinding on a range to get a certain position, or launch angle is ridiculous because you will never be able to replicate the same conditions as the shot you just hit. It's a fleeting moment in time that will never happen again. The number of pros that claim to "teach" the game really only teach the science of the golf swing. Their use of flightscope and radars appears very professional, very detailed and scientific but its really just a ruse to make their services appear superior, to make the client feel like their are getting something special or more for their money. It's nothing but a marketing ploy to increase sales. everybody does it and only a few great ones don't need to.
[/quote]

I agree with much of what you say, candianrick - you can't reinvent the wheel, and modern golf instruction is as bogus as it gets. The way Bobby Jones, Sam Snead and Byron Nelson swung was good enough for Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan as well, and Tom Watson and Greg Norman. The way they swung was very mechanically-correct for the most part and didn't have to be reinvented.

The planted heel swing for example. No reason for it, and it does nothing but disrupt the natural kinetic chain of a proper swing.

The MCS swing theory is actually just going back to the old days of how the swing was performed with more mechanical-soundness, and the technique was more what you see in other sports.

Phil Mickelson, Bubba Watson, they're throwbacks to the classic age.

I find Trackman/Flightscope to be good tools to measure what one is doing, but using it to teach a swing? How do you do that? Telling someone to increase their launch angle because TM says it's too low doesn't actually teach you HOW to do that...

Digging it out of the dirt is better, but when you can start with certain fundamentals in your stance and mechanics, then it's much, much easier.

best,

DJ
[/quote]

What is the natural kinetic chain of the golf swing?
[/quote]

I would also be curious to hear your answer to this.
[/quote]

He won't answer.
[/quote]

Still waiting for an answer

[TB07]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1429316544' post='11384293']
[quote name='TB07' timestamp='1429316044' post='11384247']
[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1429294446' post='11382317']
[quote name='DJ Watts' timestamp='1429293538' post='11382199']
[quote name='canadianrick' timestamp='1429292715' post='11382087']
I think it's ridiculous how ppl try to come up with a new way to swing the golf club that is supposed to be better then any other way out there, call it ultimate or whatever you want. I'm also not a fan of the heavy application of flightscope and scientific analytics of the golf swing. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-numbers or anti-science, I'm evolutionist and not voodoo creationist, but the game of golf is highly dynamic. We can certainly study the swing to the point that we can optimize it under controlled conditions, but obviously the environmental conditions change all of the time in golf. Furthermore, our mental conditions change theoretically from shot to shot. To me, the optimized study of the golf swing is useless because the game of golf is completely uncontrollable. Experience and understanding our own bodies, our own swings and our own abilities is what matters. Grinding on a range to get a certain position, or launch angle is ridiculous because you will never be able to replicate the same conditions as the shot you just hit. It's a fleeting moment in time that will never happen again. The number of pros that claim to "teach" the game really only teach the science of the golf swing. Their use of flightscope and radars appears very professional, very detailed and scientific but its really just a ruse to make their services appear superior, to make the client feel like their are getting something special or more for their money. It's nothing but a marketing ploy to increase sales. everybody does it and only a few great ones don't need to.
[/quote]

I agree with much of what you say, candianrick - you can't reinvent the wheel, and modern golf instruction is as bogus as it gets. The way Bobby Jones, Sam Snead and Byron Nelson swung was good enough for Nicklaus, Palmer, Hogan as well, and Tom Watson and Greg Norman. The way they swung was very mechanically-correct for the most part and didn't have to be reinvented.

The planted heel swing for example. No reason for it, and it does nothing but disrupt the natural kinetic chain of a proper swing.

The MCS swing theory is actually just going back to the old days of how the swing was performed with more mechanical-soundness, and the technique was more what you see in other sports.

Phil Mickelson, Bubba Watson, they're throwbacks to the classic age.

I find Trackman/Flightscope to be good tools to measure what one is doing, but using it to teach a swing? How do you do that? Telling someone to increase their launch angle because TM says it's too low doesn't actually teach you HOW to do that...

Digging it out of the dirt is better, but when you can start with certain fundamentals in your stance and mechanics, then it's much, much easier.

best,

DJ
[/quote]

What is the natural kinetic chain of the golf swing?
[/quote]

I would also be curious to hear your answer to this.
[/quote]

He won't answer.
[/quote]

Still waiting for an answer

[Ghost of Snead]

Chief -

Straight from the Shark and Bake article ...

[i]"[color=#444444]I’d say the [/color][b][i]MCS[/i][/b][color=#444444] technique blows away anything found on the[/color][b][i] PGA Tour[/i][/b][color=#444444] for efficiency and power production"[/color][/i]

[color=#444444]Better than Rory's technique ?[/color]

[Ghost of Snead]

Chief -

Straight from the Shark and Bake article ...

[i]"[color=#444444]I’d say the [/color][b][i]MCS[/i][/b][color=#444444] technique blows away anything found on the[/color][b][i] PGA Tour[/i][/b][color=#444444] for efficiency and power production"[/color][/i]

[color=#444444]Better than Rory's technique ?[/color]

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1429339620' post='11385867']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1429180760' post='11371439']
[quote name='Wooderson' timestamp='1429179517' post='11371409']
Some of y'all need to chill out. Your comments come across as petty ITeach
[/quote]

Then you haven't been around. Not petty at all but you're free to think what you want. I'm just tired of the constant lies these two come up with to try and push their product. If something is good it stands by itself.
[/quote]

A difference of opinion is not a lie. DJ and myself are both deeply passionate and honest in the truth of his work. Generally for the sake of the generally accepted protocols of good debate and conversation, you could say we are in illusion on such things but we are not knowingly propagating lies. Of course as evolution goes, if someone doesn't see or understand the next step, they would consider those who have evolved to be have lost their way and to be in illusion as those who have evolved see those operating under limited principles to as well be in illusion. Tragic but funny as well to think that folks were put to death for proposing a sun centered system.
[/quote]

No I'm talking about outrigh lies. Like how "big toilet" was PGA Section Player of the year when he finished no where near first in points. Not even close. You guys are carnival barkers who have one trick and are trying to sell it as hard as you can.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Chief Cowpie' timestamp='1429339620' post='11385867']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1429180760' post='11371439']
[quote name='Wooderson' timestamp='1429179517' post='11371409']
Some of y'all need to chill out. Your comments come across as petty ITeach
[/quote]

Then you haven't been around. Not petty at all but you're free to think what you want. I'm just tired of the constant lies these two come up with to try and push their product. If something is good it stands by itself.
[/quote]

A difference of opinion is not a lie. DJ and myself are both deeply passionate and honest in the truth of his work. Generally for the sake of the generally accepted protocols of good debate and conversation, you could say we are in illusion on such things but we are not knowingly propagating lies. Of course as evolution goes, if someone doesn't see or understand the next step, they would consider those who have evolved to be have lost their way and to be in illusion as those who have evolved see those operating under limited principles to as well be in illusion. Tragic but funny as well to think that folks were put to death for proposing a sun centered system.
[/quote]

No I'm talking about outrigh lies. Like how "big toilet" was PGA Section Player of the year when he finished no where near first in points. Not even close. You guys are carnival barkers who have one trick and are trying to sell it as hard as you can.

[DJ Watts]

WRX Friends,

 

Since Chief was posting originally about the pivot, which is key to any golf swing, here's something you may find interesting:

 

 

---

In the above gif's left frame, I am swinging with my left arm only, and just hanging on with my right. In the right frame, I can swinging with my right arm only, and just hanging on with the left.

 

Same pivot, same action. You build speed and power with leverage more easily than by working out in the gym. Leverage beats muscle all day long.

 

DJ

[DJ Watts]

WRX Friends,

 

Since Chief was posting originally about the pivot, which is key to any golf swing, here's something you may find interesting:

 

 

---

In the above gif's left frame, I am swinging with my left arm only, and just hanging on with my right. In the right frame, I can swinging with my right arm only, and just hanging on with the left.

 

Same pivot, same action. You build speed and power with leverage more easily than by working out in the gym. Leverage beats muscle all day long.

 

DJ

[bman58]

DJ Watts and Grant Waite comparison at impact with driver swing.

 

Chief Cowpie, what effect do you think DJ's loss of spine angle will have?

 

Why do you think this is "mechanically correct" ?

 

 

 

DJ or CC, are there any videos of this swing being used to hit irons or wedges to a target? Just wondering how it works for accuracy through the bag.