What if most of what you know about irons is wrong?

[Pigems]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1430514847' post='11481813']
[quote name='oldschoolrocker' timestamp='1430392287' post='11471447']
Like socialism, the blade versus GI debate is a creeping vine, weaving its tangled way even into our little corner of the web.
As great debates go, ours pales in comparison to "the chicken, or the egg," but, my spin, either can do the intended task, when properly fitted.
[/quote]

Hi Randy,

Yes, our friend gopherguts has wandered into our section of the site, discussing blade vs. GI.

I think the beauty with us aged specimens is that the arguement can be made all day about scoring better with GI irons. We will sagely nod our heads, and in many cases agree with those arguing.

Problem is, we really don't care. We are chasing a feeling, a memory, or something we cannot define. We are not chasing score. We play golf, not golf swing, or golf score. We have a thread with "equipment finds", not to compare, critique, or debate, but to rejoice in the good fortune of others. We talk about challenges we have with our equipment, not to discuss changing it, but instead to encourage each other to keep at it.

Much like a '57 Chevy, we don't want the fastest car. We instead sit back, enjoy the aesthetic, appreciate the craftsmanship that went into its creation, then head out for a leisurely Sunday drive, a drive that may involve a chocolate-dipped soft serve from Dairy Queen.

So no, I'm not worried about GI vs. blades pervading this section of the forum, as we will all acknowledge that for most golfers, GI clubs are more forgiving and can help them score better.

The fact is, we simply don't care.

As we get older, we learn enjoying the drive is just as important as getting to the destination.
[/quote]

Awesome post man, thanks for sharing

[Fellaheen51]

That was a great post Scooter. You nailed it, encapsulating some of the sentiments we have playing and discussing our old clubs. Not wanting to be overly philosophical, but there seems to be a certain shared experience going on here.

A global zeitgeist if you think about it. Kinda special.

[Forged4ever]

I found it quit ironic that although Mr. Hogan is oft remembered for his never ending quest for the ultimate golf iron, and is credited for technological breakthroughs that increased the forgiveness, consistency & distance control and playability of irons, it was his Apex shaft technological breakthroughs that basically laid the foundation that "distance sells" lonnnnnng before the current "culprits," lol, and put Ben Hogan Golf on the map with the "Big Boys."

It was Mr. Hogan's meeting with Dr. Fred Dunkerly(PhD metallurgical engineer from Carnegie Institue, now Carnegie Mellon) and their joint design of the Apex shaft, the industry's first successful lightweight shaft.

The shaft design resulted in a significant reduction in overall weight of the clubs, particularly the longest club, the driver.

Recognizing that lighter clubs were easier to swing and easier to control, Mr. Hogan added 1/2" to the length of each of his irons.

He knew that a longer club would hit the ball further, so he tested the combination of lighter club and longer shaft.

It worked!!!

Consequently, when the Apex shaft was introduced, in addition to being lighter in weight, the Hogan clubs were ONE HALF INCH LONGER, which enabled Mr. Hogan to claim the LONGEST clubs, irons included, on the market,

The shaft was a smash success, allowing Ben Hogan Golf to have THE most dominant shaft in the game for well over a decade, and basically putting Ben Hogan Golf on the map, alongside Staff, Mac, Dunlop & Spalding.

And it wasn't due to feel-

It wasn't due to consistency-

It wasn't due to forgiveness-

It was LIGHTER + LONGER(1/2") = DISTANCE!!

Ironic, lol

Have a great weekend Kathy Marie & Gents

My Best,
Richard



***Later Ed: 05/02/15, 9:35-> Shortly after this pic was snapped, that Gent addressing the ball in the white "Hogan Hat," upon nutting a Beautiful 5i, looked to Mr. Hogan in stunned awe, and chirped, "Wow Mr. Hogan, that's 17-18yds longer than my normal 5i."

Mr. Hogan, the Master of Understated Elegence, simply smiled, looked back at the camera and said, "and so it shall be....."

TMaG?

Yea, right .........

Have a Great weekend My Friends

RP II

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='Fellaheen51' timestamp='1430532866' post='11483679']
That was a great post Scooter. You nailed it, encapsulating some of the sentiments we have playing and discussing our old clubs. Not wanting to be overly philosophical, but there seems to be a certain shared experience going on here.

A global zeitgeist if you think about it. Kinda special.
[/quote]

Thanks Fella and Pigems. Sorry to have deviated from the subject of the modern Ben Hogan clubs, but IMHO, anything they say about them will be marketing speak. Moving to loft from iron number is something likely overdue in the industry, but that would destroy the marketing plans of virtually every OEM (the longest 5i EVER!).

The simple facts are:
-hit the sweet spot, ball goes far
- miss the sweet spot, ball goes not as far
- our design creates a slightly bigger sweet spot than a traditional blade
- we stole this design from Golden Ram Axial irons, which are pretty nice

When it comes to our classic clubs Fella, it is almost a science vs. beauty thing. Science can explain how trees pollinate, develop seeds, grow, and weather various environment challenges. Beauty tells us how gorgeous the tree is when in full bloom in spring.

And I hate to always keep referring to age, but as we age, we slow down as we know we're getting closer to the finish line. We cherish special moments (the perfect shot!) a whole lot more than we did when we were young - when we went rushing past them not even realizing they were special moments.

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Forged4ever' timestamp='1430571192' post='11485283']
I found it quit ironic that although Mr. Hogan is oft remembered for his never ending quest for the ultimate golf iron, and is credited for technological breakthroughs that increased the forgiveness, consistency & distance control and playability of irons, it was his Apex shaft technological breakthroughs that basically laid the foundation that "distance sells" lonnnnnng before the current "culprits," lol, and put Ben Hogan Golf on the map with the "Big Boys."

It was Mr. Hogan's meeting with Dr. Fred Dunkerly(PhD metallurgical engineer from Carnegie Institue, now Carnegie Mellon) and their joint design of the Apex shaft, the industry's first successful lightweight shaft.

The shaft design resulted in a significant reduction in overall weight of the clubs, particularly the longest club, the driver.

Recognizing that lighter clubs were easier to swing and easier to control, Mr. Hogan added 1/2" to the length of each of his irons.

He knew that a longer club would hit the ball further, so he tested the combination of lighter club and longer shaft.

It worked!!!

Consequently, when the Apex shaft was introduced, in addition to being lighter in weight, the Hogan clubs were ONE HALF INCH LONGER, which enabled Mr. Hogan to claim the LONGEST clubs, irons included, on the market,

The shaft was a smash success, allowing Ben Hogan Golf to have THE most dominant shaft in the game for well over a decade, and basically putting Ben Hogan Golf on the map, alongside Staff, Mac, Dunlop & Spalding.

And it wasn't due to feel-

It wasn't due to consistency-

It wasn't due to forgiveness-

It was LIGHTER + LONGER(1/2") = DISTANCE!!

Ironic, lol

Have a great weekend Kathy Marie & Gents

My Best,
Richard



***Later Ed: 05/02/15, 9:35-> Shortly after this pic was snapped, that Gent addressing the ball in the white "Hogan Hat," upon nutting a Beautiful 5i, looked to Mr. Hogan in stunned awe, and chirped, "Wow Mr. Hogan, that's 17-18yds longer than my normal 5i."

Mr. Hogan, the Master of Understated Elegence, simply smiled, looked back at the camera and said, "and so it shall be....."

TMaG?

Yea, right .........

Have a Great weekend My Friends

RP II
[/quote]The more I have read and learned on here I have came up with the opinion that not only was Mr. Hogan a great player but he was also a brilliant club engineer and to think he done the latter on feel and common sense

[Kathy Marie]

[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1430576194' post='11485593']
The more I have read and learned on here I have came up with the opinion that not only was Mr. Hogan a great player but he was also a brilliant club engineer and to think he done the latter on feel and common sense
[/quote]

Common sense? TOTALLY Agree--but Hogan was also smart.

I heard the following from a Local Gentleman who's been tight with the golfing community up here since grade school. He checks out--Real Deal--he's kinda the Northern Equivalent of a Big Stu.

Anyway, this story is 4th hand now, so friend of a friend of Northern Stu's heard it from the participant.

Seems a psychologist would get to play an occasional round with Mr. Hogan and wanted to test Hogan's IQ.

As you might imagine, Mr. Hogan politely declined: he didn't want to take time for an IQ test. Well, the psychologist suggested when they played together, he'd ask two questions and Mr Hogan agreed.

So in the fullness of time, Hogan answered every question on the IQ test. Now before I tell you the number, I want you to come up with your own idea of the results...

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1430597254' post='11486921']
[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1430576194' post='11485593']
The more I have read and learned on here I have came up with the opinion that not only was Mr. Hogan a great player but he was also a brilliant club engineer and to think he done the latter on feel and common sense
[/quote]

Common sense? TOTALLY Agree--but Hogan was also smart.

I heard the following from a Local Gentleman who's been tight with the golfing community up here since grade school. He checks out--Real Deal--he's kinda the Northern Equivalent of a Big Stu.

Anyway, this story is 4th hand now, so friend of a friend of Northern Stu's heard it from the participant.

Seems a psychologist would get to play an occasional round with Mr. Hogan and wanted to test Hogan's IQ.

As you might imagine, Mr. Hogan politely declined: he didn't want to take time for an IQ test. Well, the psychologist suggested when they played together, he'd ask two questions and Mr Hogan agreed.

So in the fullness of time, Hogan answered every question on the IQ test. Now before I tell you the number, I want you to come up with your own idea of the results...
[/quote]Good Day

I am going to guestimate 135-140ish, right around Menza level(Though it's the top 2%, it usually falls around 139-142)

Have a Great Weekend Kath & Thank You!!!!!!

My Best,
Richard

[stevemcgee99]

[quote name='ScooterMcTavish' timestamp='1430514847' post='11481813']
The fact is, we simply don't care.

As we get older, we learn enjoying the drive is just as important as getting to the destination.
[/quote]

I do care. And I believe that the most effective way for me to improve my score is to become a better golfer. I feel that using clubs that correct my bad swing is cheating.

When I was a college freshman, the slogan of the school I attended was 'Education is a journey, not a destination'. Even the young can appreciate that. I think it's just a different mindset, based on different values.

I want to be a scratch golfer. But I want to do it with persimmon woods. I don't think that's extra ambitious any more than wanting to score well on a test without bringing in a cheat sheet, or wanting to find a wonderful mate without lying to her.

[HoganApexBlades]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1430597254' post='11486921']
[quote name='BIG STU' timestamp='1430576194' post='11485593']
The more I have read and learned on here I have came up with the opinion that not only was Mr. Hogan a great player but he was also a brilliant club engineer and to think he done the latter on feel and common sense
[/quote]

Common sense? TOTALLY Agree--but Hogan was also smart.

I heard the following from a Local Gentleman who's been tight with the golfing community up here since grade school. He checks out--Real Deal--he's kinda the Northern Equivalent of a Big Stu.

Anyway, this story is 4th hand now, so friend of a friend of Northern Stu's heard it from the participant.

Seems a psychologist would get to play an occasional round with Mr. Hogan and wanted to test Hogan's IQ.

As you might imagine, Mr. Hogan politely declined: he didn't want to take time for an IQ test. Well, the psychologist suggested when they played together, he'd ask two questions and Mr Hogan agreed.

So in the fullness of time, Hogan answered every question on the IQ test. Now before I tell you the number, I want you to come up with your own idea of the results...
[/quote]

Hogan was at least 15 points above genius level which equated to at least 175 or more...

[gopherguts]

[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1430602218' post='11487271']
I want to be a scratch golfer. But I want to do it with persimmon woods.
[/quote]

Very interesting goal young feller.

Good luck to you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Cwing]

Nothing works for everyone. Some like hard to hit irons that feel pure on perfect strikes. Some will say those irons will make a better swing due to feel and punishment on misfits.

Others want forgiveness. Others want irons that allow a hit towards the heel or toe with a square face to have less penalty. After all, most work for a living and do not have time to groove the perfect swing.

Why must so many try to force others to do what they do instead of letting well enough alone?

[GWD]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1430608734' post='11487675']

Why must do many try to force others to do what they do instead of letting well enough alone?
[/quote]

As Bob Dylan sang long ago:

"Well, I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants me to be just like them." (Maggie's Farm)

It is pretty much the human condition.

[stevemcgee99]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1430608734' post='11487675']
Why must do many try to force others to do what they do instead of letting well enough alone?
[/quote]
I don't want to force anyone to do anything. Not even to agree with me or understand me.

But it sure seems like any talk about clubs implies that people are going to get round up and shuttled off somewhere for playing the wrong kind.



[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1430608545' post='11487663']
Very interesting goal young feller.

Good luck to you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, [/quote]
Thanks, I'm sure I'll need luck among a lot of other things. I have no idea if I'll be able to do it, but that's what I'm trying to do.

[Kathy Marie]

Alan & Richard, thanks for playing!!!

And the answer is, Hogan's IQ was measured at 180. (!!!)

Yes, that man was a Solid Genius...

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1430668277' post='11490117']
Alan & Richard, thanks for playing!!!

And the answer is, Hogan's IQ was measured at 180. (!!!)

Yes, that man was a Solid Genius...



[/quote]Holy S***!!!!!

I don't doubt you for a second, however if that's true(I mean if the guy retelling it is accurate & the test was accurate) that's even more incredibly thin air than his golfing ability places him!!

The smartest, tested, individual that I've ever met is my Uncle, who while at West Point, where he also played football, tested at 174, and he went on to become a station chief with the CIA before leaving Govt and going/retiring from Westinghouse's Nuclear Division, where he was a Sr. VP of R&D(And the funny thing is my Aunt, and she's a Sweetheart, but she can't get in out of the rain from her front yard. And my cousins, while not their Father, are 142 & 152. It's my Father's Sis. He got those genes though my Aunt is very Pretty & Very Sweet. And like I tell my Father, She was Bright enough to pick the right guy at 17yo )!!

He makes my Father, a Transplant Surgeon, look like a moron, which really pisses my Dad off, lol.

Anyhoo, Great factoid, thanks for sharing!!!

Have a Great week Kath

All the Best,
Richard

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='GWD' timestamp='1430610482' post='11487817']
[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1430608734' post='11487675']

Why must do many try to force others to do what they do instead of letting well enough alone?
[/quote]

As Bob Dylan sang long ago:

"Well, I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants me to be just like them." (Maggie's Farm)

It is pretty much the human condition.
[/quote]It's that herd mentality thing

Well, that and the fact that most have tried(or not), and have ended up with the other 75-85% in the land of mediocrity, so they're more than willing to share their pearls of wisdom on how you too can end up there

It's ok to run with the herd CW, just have the stones to break away when appropriate

Have a Great Season My Friend,
Richard

[scomac2002]

[quote name='Kathy Marie' timestamp='1430668277' post='11490117']
Alan & Richard, thanks for playing!!!

And the answer is, Hogan's IQ was measured at 180. (!!!)

Yes, that man was a Solid Genius...



[/quote]

Wow! I figured that he had to be super smart as the story was setting up for that. That was a very interesting generation of individuals as you have Hogan, Nicklaus and Palmer all starting up their own equipment companies with varying degrees of success. Prior to that, you didn't really see that happening, it's my impression that it was more of the variety where individuals like Tommy Armour or Bobby Jones had club makers make lines for them rather than opening a stand alone business. Now, with the supremacy of the OEM, you don't really see anything in the way of signature clubs anymore. Even Tiger didn't get his own line of clubs, just a line of apparel!

[BMC]

To me, a game improvement club is one that when I look down at it at set-up I BELIEVE I'm going to hit a good shot.

That club will be different for different people.

That said, I love the look of these new Hogans. I have a set of Redlines in rotation.

FYI: the Ping Eye 2 +no+ short irons (SW-8) use a V-Sole and they are great.

[Bad9]

[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1430305257' post='11464023']
One thing we COULD maybe take from hammers is this. Heavier heads and lighter shafts. I had a Stilletto Titanium hammer that was only 15oz, but struck with the force of a 24oz hammer because it has a steel face with a titanium head and shaft. So it basically had a super heavy swing weight. So it required less force in theory to drive the nail the same distance on a given swing.

So maybe we should be trying super heavy heads with lightweight shafts instead??
[/quote]

That was pretty much the concept of Goldwyn clubs and big butt, ultra light weight grips. I'm surprised no one has tried the big butt shaft again, I always thought it would work well with big driver heads.

[Soloman1]

Sorry, I skipped a couple pages in the middle.

The hammer analogy isn't correct. Moment of Inertia is higher with a cavity-back club and the shape and mass design affects the MOI. The higher the MOI, the more resistance there is to rotation from off-center hits. The only thing high MOI cavity-back clubs do is reduce the distance loss and dispersion from off-center hits. They don't make you hit it farther. There are other attributes to hitting a club farther, e.g. faster clubhead speed from lighter weight, loft, etc. Instead of X% loss of distance from that off center hit, it becomes something like (0.5)X%.

The hammer shape in either orientation applies the same Force if impact occurs at the same acceleration and at the projection to the surface of the center of gravity of the head. The mass is the same. F=ma. Force is also a vector, so an off-center hit twists the head during the impact interval, so the vector direction is changed, diluting the effect of the hit.

The sideways orientation of a hammer is not optimal to increase the MOI of the head. Cavity-back heads are designed to optimize result, so there is no real analogy. Apple and bulldozers.

I'm surprised that the marketing weenies got away with having this nonsense published.

Let's not forget Edge clubs. Ben Hogan was the first to market forged cavity-back heads. They knew the effect of higher MOI was an advantage to golfers who were not as skilled as Ben Hogan himself.

Trivia: Edge irons were manufactured in Japan for the first couple of years. Only two forging houses in Japan had the know how to make them. Hogan eventually licensed the process and had them made in the US. The original Edge irons were excellent quality forgings.

They certainly are not going ask or heed my advice if they're that far off on understanding how a golf club works. I believe they will only survive in the jungle of modern clubs by focusing on a sense of style and quality, not physics. The shape and appearance from the top, along with a slight retro image of accessories and attention to details in quality should be their focus. The need the marketing nuance for watches and clothing.

They won't be around in five years if they try to sell technology, especially if it's technology based on scientific nonsense. I can't believe the investors aren't more switched on than this.

[stevemcgee99]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1431821276' post='11571120'] The mass is the same. F=ma.

I'm surprised that the marketing weenies got away with having this nonsense published.

Trivia: Edge irons were manufactured in Japan for the first couple of years. ... The original Edge irons were excellent quality forgings.
[/quote]

F=ma is the formula I use for golf. Less concerned about absolute clubhead speed.

Advertising is essentially getting away with nonsense.

And: In my experience metal qualities have a lot to the results a craftsman gets while using hand tools. Crazy, unimaginable things happen at the micro-level while striking or slicing steel through objects, and the quality of the steel really makes a difference. Also, the quality of the feeling is impacted significantly. For a craftsman, that is about as important as it gets.

[Wknd_Warrior]

I think it's easy to oversimplify the physics involved. At a basic level it appears intuitive, but I bet analysing efficiency over a range of off center hits for different club designs would make a good project for a university student.

I tend to suspect until you get a certain distance away from the sweet spot you might be better off with mass in the hitting area. So designing some extra MOI into the club but keeping that mass close to the probable hitting area could make some kind of sense.

[HoldenCornfield]

The more I play hickory golf the less I know about irons.

My hickory set is completely mismatched (heads and shafts), with tiny sweet spots way in the heel, no flange or bounce, varying amounts of offset, no grooves for all practical purposes, and wider loft gaps.

And yet they are my most consistent performing iron set right now. I had not touched them in about a month until yesterday, then went out and shot my best round since, well, the last time I played hickory.

[Oldplayer]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1433430435' post='11688670']
The more I play hickory golf the less I know about irons.

My hickory set is completely mismatched (heads and shafts), with tiny sweet spots way in the heel, no flange or bounce, varying amounts of offset, no grooves for all practical purposes, and wider loft gaps.

And yet they are my most consistent performing iron set right now. I had not touched them in about a month until yesterday, then went out and shot my best round since, well, the last time I played hickory.
[/quote]
It's very interesting isn't it.
With all the modern engineering and science involved in modern club manufacture is is not an easy task to explain why the old hickories work so well and are so consistent for you. Have you played them a lot and are "tuned in" to their individual nuances?

[TimV]

I have two sets of clubs I play, a modern set and a vintage set. Modern set are forged irons with a light cavity backs with a triangular weighted area at the base and peaking above the sweet spot. I play it with a 300 cc volume driver and mid sized metal woods. I can not stand looking down on anything larger than 300cc in a driver. The vintage set is forged blade irons and persimmon woods. The difference about 10 to 15 yards distance but very little as far as accuracy. I play with guys all the time who are bagging the newest, the biggest, and the best. Regardless of which set I'm playing I'm often asked "how can you play those?" I answer by breaking into song...
It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing... do-whoop, do-woop do-whoop, do-whoop, do-whoop!

[BIG STU]

[quote name='TimV' timestamp='1433970121' post='11727716']
I have two sets of clubs I play, a modern set and a vintage set. Modern set are forged irons with a light cavity backs with a triangular weighted area at the base and peaking above the sweet spot. I play it with a 300 cc volume driver and mid sized metal woods. I can not stand looking down on anything larger than 300cc in a driver. The vintage set is forged blade irons and persimmon woods. The difference about 10 to 15 yards distance but very little as far as accuracy. I play with guys all the time who are bagging the newest, the biggest, and the best. Regardless of which set I'm playing I'm often asked "how can you play those?" I answer by breaking into song...
It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing... do-whoop, do-woop do-whoop, do-whoop, do-whoop!
[/quote]That is kind of like what some folks especially the tourist golfers ask me especially when they see either my old 985 1 iron in the bag or my modified KZG forged 2 iron. Of course now I have went back to my old VIPs that I have reworked for my front line set. If you look at my signature at the bottom of this you will see no joke those are my front line money gamers. The newest thing in the bag is the driver and it is 4 years old at least I have had it that long but it is 6 year old technology which is antique in a lot of folks minds. When I play my vintage set which is a set of CF-4000s with a mix of old forged wedges and persimmon woods I hear this "man if you had a set of clubs you could really play". It really blows their minds when I drag out the 1940s Tommy Armour 5800 irons

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1431821276' post='11571120']
Sorry, I skipped a couple pages in the middle.

The hammer analogy isn't correct. Moment of Inertia is higher with a cavity-back club and the shape and mass design affects the MOI. The higher the MOI, the more resistance there is to rotation from off-center hits. The only thing high MOI cavity-back clubs do is reduce the distance loss and dispersion from off-center hits. They don't make you hit it farther. There are other attributes to hitting a club farther, e.g. faster clubhead speed from lighter weight, loft, etc. Instead of X% loss of distance from that off center hit, it becomes something like (0.5)X%.

The hammer shape in either orientation applies the same Force if impact occurs at the same acceleration and at the projection to the surface of the center of gravity of the head. The mass is the same. F=ma. Force is also a vector, so an off-center hit twists the head during the impact interval, so the vector direction is changed, diluting the effect of the hit.

The sideways orientation of a hammer is not optimal to increase the MOI of the head. Cavity-back heads are designed to optimize result, so there is no real analogy. Apple and bulldozers.

I'm surprised that the marketing weenies got away with having this nonsense published.

Let's not forget Edge clubs. Ben Hogan was the first to market forged cavity-back heads. They knew the effect of higher MOI was an advantage to golfers who were not as skilled as Ben Hogan himself.

Trivia: Edge irons were manufactured in Japan for the first couple of years. Only two forging houses in Japan had the know how to make them. Hogan eventually licensed the process and had them made in the US. The original Edge irons were excellent quality forgings.

They certainly are not going ask or heed my advice if they're that far off on understanding how a golf club works. I believe they will only survive in the jungle of modern clubs by focusing on a sense of style and quality, not physics. The shape and appearance from the top, along with a slight retro image of accessories and attention to details in quality should be their focus. The need the marketing nuance for watches and clothing.

They won't be around in five years if they try to sell technology, especially if it's technology based on scientific nonsense. I can't believe the investors aren't more switched on than this.
[/quote]I may be wrong but Ram came out with a cavity back head in the late 70s called the XS-1000 and I believe they were forged. I think they were a rare breed also I know my old man was a Ram staffer right before he retired around 80 or so and he tried a set and did not like them but he sold quite a few sets in his shop. He finished out his days with those CF-4000s in the bag with a Macgregor driver and Wilson Strata Block fairways and a either Otey Chrisman or Golfcraft mallet putter. In all my foraging and looking I have not seen a set of those Rams in 30 years

[BIG STU]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1431659690' post='11561916']
[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1430305257' post='11464023']
One thing we COULD maybe take from hammers is this. Heavier heads and lighter shafts. I had a Stilletto Titanium hammer that was only 15oz, but struck with the force of a 24oz hammer because it has a steel face with a titanium head and shaft. So it basically had a super heavy swing weight. So it required less force in theory to drive the nail the same distance on a given swing.

So maybe we should be trying super heavy heads with lightweight shafts instead??
[/quote]

That was pretty much the concept of Goldwyn clubs and big butt, ultra light weight grips. I'm surprised no one has tried the big butt shaft again, I always thought it would work well with big driver heads.
[/quote]Those big butt shafts were a pain to put grips on though but I have a tool to do it with. Not really that expensive of a tool I got mine from Maltby back in the day still have it. Do not know why but evidently I had the only one at this beach. All the other shops used to send those guys with the Tmag bubble shafts to me for grips. I still have a few customers that swear by those shafts and if I see any clubs in the thrifts etc I buy them for a couple of bucks for the shaft. Personally I am a feel player and I could never get any feedback with those shafts

[BIG STU]

[quote name='stevemcgee99' timestamp='1431821779' post='11571154']
[quote name='Soloman1' timestamp='1431821276' post='11571120'] The mass is the same. F=ma.

I'm surprised that the marketing weenies got away with having this nonsense published.

Trivia: Edge irons were manufactured in Japan for the first couple of years. ... The original Edge irons were excellent quality forgings.
[/quote]

F=ma is the formula I use for golf. Less concerned about absolute clubhead speed.

Advertising is essentially getting away with nonsense.

And: In my experience metal qualities have a lot to the results a craftsman gets while using hand tools. Crazy, unimaginable things happen at the micro-level while striking or slicing steel through objects, and the quality of the steel really makes a difference. Also, the quality of the feeling is impacted significantly. For a craftsman, that is about as important as it gets.
[/quote]Absolutely the quality of the steel makes a difference in both feel and performance. That is why with moderns most players in the know go with either Mizuno, Miura or Fourteen irons.

[Bad9]

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[quote name='Pigems' timestamp='1430305257' post='11464023']
One thing we COULD maybe take from hammers is this. Heavier heads and lighter shafts. I had a Stilletto Titanium hammer that was only 15oz, but struck with the force of a 24oz hammer because it has a steel face with a titanium head and shaft. So it basically had a super heavy swing weight. So it required less force in theory to drive the nail the same distance on a given swing.

So maybe we should be trying super heavy heads with lightweight shafts instead??
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That was pretty much the concept of Goldwyn clubs and big butt, ultra light weight grips. I'm surprised no one has tried the big butt shaft again, I always thought it would work well with big driver heads.
[/quote]Those big butt shafts were a pain to put grips on though but I have a tool to do it with. Not really that expensive of a tool I got mine from Maltby back in the day still have it. Do not know why but evidently I had the only one at this beach. All the other shops used to send those guys with the Tmag bubble shafts to me for grips. I still have a few customers that swear by those shafts and if I see any clubs in the thrifts etc I buy them for a couple of bucks for the shaft. Personally I am a feel player and I could never get any feedback with those shafts
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I made my own tool using a funnel and it still comes in handy installing Winn grips once in a while. The longest drive I ever hot was with an Apache Maximizer big butt shaft on a Mercury II(Callaway clone) 9.5° head.