Smart phones, distance measuring devices

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433034000' post='11658216']
I guess I never quite understood why the USGA ever decided to allow DMDs.
[/quote]

This was because so many carts have an inbuilt GPS.

It was R&A that opposed allowing DMD's and the current Rule is a compromise.

[sui generis]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433029626' post='11657860']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1432989842' post='11655264']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

Rules "weasels" are always on the lookout for a way to game the Rules.
[/quote]

If you're stumped for an answer, why not just stay out of the issue?
[/quote]

The RB's don't miss much; they're especially vigilant for those who seek loopholes.

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433029423' post='11657838']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1432993294' post='11655518']
Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming
[/quote]

I hate to disagree with you Mr. Bean, but I disagree with your 1st sentence, which makes the rest of your answer moot in my opinion. The player is NOT allowed to substitute that club, because it was non-conforming to begin with. It's the player's obligation to confirm he's playing with conforming clubs ... not the supplier.

(Sorry Sawgrass, I wrote the above response before I read your post.)
[/quote]

I am not sure what you disagree with. IMO the answer to my question is a) as the player was NOT allowed to use a non-conforming club and it is HIS responsibility to make sure his clubs are conforming.

[Sawgrass]

I must say, I wish the RBs would simply allow all available DMDs. I don't give a crap if my opponent has "slope" information at his disposal. If there's one thing that's easy to eyeball, it's slope.

[rogolf]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433036629' post='11658412']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433034000' post='11658216']
I guess I never quite understood why the USGA ever decided to allow DMDs.
[/quote]

This was because so many carts have an inbuilt GPS.

[b]It was R&A that opposed allowing DMD's and the current Rule is a compromise.[/b]
[/quote]

That might be an assumption, and perhaps not valid. There are at least three committees which needed to reach concensus - the USGA Rules Committee, the R&A Rules Committee and the Joint Rules Committee. Then it had to go to the USGA Executive Committee and R&A Rules Ltd.
What are you suggesting was a compromise in 2005?

[LeoLeo99]

30 years ago, my brain was calibrated and even if they existed, I had no need for a DMD. Today, I have a DMD and my buds and I guess the distance before I shoot it with the DMD. We are within a few yards. I find the DMD a useful part of my preshot routine but not necessary to my game.

As I've stated before, the USGA should either make them all legal or all illegal. I'd vote for all illegal. No GPS, no lasers.

[sui generis]

The ruling bodies are consistent in their determinations about DMDs. If the thing produces only information, such as distance between two points, that can be easily determined by other means, such as pacing or Kirby markers, the gadget is approved.

What they don't want, and nor should we, is a portable all-in-one unit capable of instantaneously measuring the all of the meteorological variables and topography and then quickly telling the player to hit a 7 iron. Those devices are already available.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1433070133' post='11659680']
The ruling bodies are consistent in their determinations about DMDs. If the thing produces only information, such as distance between two points, that can be easily determined by other means, such as pacing or Kirby markers, the gadget is approved.

What they don't want, and nor should we, is a portable all-in-one unit capable of instantaneously measuring the all of the meteorological variables and topography and then quickly telling the player to hit a 7 iron. Those devices are already available.
[/quote]

Ignoring the fact that the player then has to execute said 7 iron.

Like most every other rule change or decision the USGA has made over the last 20 or so years, their decision was politically expeditious, rather than directed towards maintaining the integrity of the game.

Hot balls. Hot club faces. Long putters. Pendulum putters. DMDs.

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433037958' post='11658520']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433029423' post='11657838']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1432993294' post='11655518']
Let us take a similar example.

Player X breaks his driver when hitting his ball. According to the Rules he is allowed to substitute that club. So he asks a friend of his to bring him the driver that this friend was testing on the range before the tee-off. The friend fetches the driver from his car and gives it to player X who uses it for the rest of the round.

On the last hole someone in the group notices that the driver player X is using is non-conforming.

Ruling?

a) X is disqualified for use of a non-conforming club
b) no penalty as X did not know that club was non-conforming
[/quote]

I hate to disagree with you Mr. Bean, but I disagree with your 1st sentence, which makes the rest of your answer moot in my opinion. The player is NOT allowed to substitute that club, because it was non-conforming to begin with. It's the player's obligation to confirm he's playing with conforming clubs ... not the supplier.

(Sorry Sawgrass, I wrote the above response before I read your post.)
[/quote]

I am not sure what you disagree with. IMO the answer to my question is a) as the player was NOT allowed to use a non-conforming club and it is HIS responsibility to make sure his clubs are conforming.
[/quote]

He said he disagreed with your first sentence that they are similar examples. In your case, the player had the opportunity to examine the club himself before he used it. He wasn't penalized the moment his friend handed him the club, and he could have handed it back. In the OP's case, player A didn't himself use the DMD, and once the yardage was given from player C, the penalty occurs. There is no way to hand back that information.

[sui generis]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433071488' post='11659710']
[quote name='sui generis' timestamp='1433070133' post='11659680']
The ruling bodies are consistent in their determinations about DMDs. If the thing produces only information, such as distance between two points, that can be easily determined by other means, such as pacing or Kirby markers, the gadget is approved.

What they don't want, and nor should we, is a portable all-in-one unit capable of instantaneously measuring the all of the meteorological variables and topography and then quickly telling the player to hit a 7 iron. Those devices are already available.
[/quote]

Ignoring the fact that the player then has to execute said 7 iron.

Like most every other rule change or decision the USGA has made over the last 20 or so years, their decision was politically expeditious, rather than directed towards maintaining the integrity of the game.

Hot balls. Hot club faces. Long putters. Pendulum putters. DMDs.
[/quote]

Can't be any fun staring at that half-empty glass all day long.

[rapriebe]

[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1433043347' post='11658962']
30 years ago, my brain was calibrated and even if they existed, I had no need for a DMD. Today, I have a DMD and my buds and I guess the distance before I shoot it with the DMD. We are within a few yards. I find the DMD a useful part of my preshot routine but not necessary to my game.

As I've stated before, the USGA should either make them all legal or all illegal. I'd vote for all illegal. No GPS, no lasers.
[/quote]

I still do the same, despite always having my Garmin G6 with me. I mostly use it when I'm well astray of those handy yardage markers that the course usually provides. I never wasted time searching for sprinklers - if a course had 100, 150, and 200 yard markers, that was all I needed, and still is. But when I'm 40 yards out in the native rough, or off in the next fairway, having my GPS makes the difference. It's also an important tool for accurately planning a required lay up, especially when I can't even see the landing area.

I think that the RB's need to modify the rule and require that legal devices have some sort of obvious identifier, and anything not so marked is not allowed. If that would rule out smart phones for tournament play, well I don't really have an answer for that. There are plenty of cheap, basic GPS and lasers available.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='rapriebe' timestamp='1433081560' post='11660276']
[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1433043347' post='11658962']
30 years ago, my brain was calibrated and even if they existed, I had no need for a DMD. Today, I have a DMD and my buds and I guess the distance before I shoot it with the DMD. We are within a few yards. I find the DMD a useful part of my preshot routine but not necessary to my game.

As I've stated before, the USGA should either make them all legal or all illegal. I'd vote for all illegal. No GPS, no lasers.
[/quote]

I still do the same, despite always having my Garmin G6 with me. I mostly use it when I'm well astray of those handy yardage markers that the course usually provides. I never wasted time searching for sprinklers - if a course had 100, 150, and 200 yard markers, that was all I needed, and still is. But when I'm 40 yards out in the native rough, or off in the next fairway, having my GPS makes the difference. It's also an important tool for accurately planning a required lay up, especially when I can't even see the landing area.

[b]I think that the RB's need to modify the rule and require that legal devices have some sort of obvious identifier, and anything not so marked is not allowed. If that would rule out smart phones for tournament play, well I don't really have an answer for that. There are plenty of cheap, basic GPS and lasers available.[/b]
[/quote]

Yessir !!! I think they also need to either allow, or not allow cell phones for getting yardages and entering scores. All or none. It's too confusing in the current state for the average player (and me )...

[cxx]

[quote name='rapriebe' timestamp='1433081560' post='11660276']
[quote name='LeoLeo99' timestamp='1433043347' post='11658962']
30 years ago, my brain was calibrated and even if they existed, I had no need for a DMD. Today, I have a DMD and my buds and I guess the distance before I shoot it with the DMD. We are within a few yards. I find the DMD a useful part of my preshot routine but not necessary to my game.

As I've stated before, the USGA should either make them all legal or all illegal. I'd vote for all illegal. No GPS, no lasers.
[/quote]

I still do the same, despite always having my Garmin G6 with me. I mostly use it when I'm well astray of those handy yardage markers that the course usually provides. I never wasted time searching for sprinklers - if a course had 100, 150, and 200 yard markers, that was all I needed, and still is. But when I'm 40 yards out in the native rough, or off in the next fairway, having my GPS makes the difference. It's also an important tool for accurately planning a required lay up, especially when I can't even see the landing area.

I think that the RB's need to modify the rule and require that legal devices have some sort of obvious identifier, and anything not so marked is not allowed. If that would rule out smart phones for tournament play, well I don't really have an answer for that. There are plenty of cheap, basic GPS and lasers available.
[/quote]

I think Bushnell has been advertising a rangefinder with two front covers, one that disables the slope feature (black) and one that enables it (red). Beats having two, one for tournament play and one for practice rounds and data collection.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433030409' post='11657930']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

My original question presumed the Committee had authorized the use of DMD's, Kevin. I didn't make that clear in the original question. Most club tournaments that I'm aware of, authorize the use of DMD's in all club tournaments.

It seems that lately, 20% of the people I play with, are using an iPhone for GPS distance. As best I can figure, the USGA prohibits iPhones as a DMD. From more than 2' away, there's no way to tell if someone is using and iPhone or some other sort of smart phone (which may or may not be "legal").

I know plenty of people who use Rangefinders with Slope. There's no way for most people to know if someone else's Rangefinder has slope capability.

We're entitled to ask a fellow competitor (or opponent for that matter) for a specific distance.

The more I read, the simpler the question gets. Are we responsible for the (undisclosed or unknown) breach by an opponent or fellow competitor.
[/quote]

Brian great topic and fun to follow. Just a note for you, with the 2014 rules update the compass is no longer an issue for the iPhone. I assume that's why you thought it was non-conforming.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1433085954' post='11660572']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433030409' post='11657930']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

My original question presumed the Committee had authorized the use of DMD's, Kevin. I didn't make that clear in the original question. Most club tournaments that I'm aware of, authorize the use of DMD's in all club tournaments.

It seems that lately, 20% of the people I play with, are using an iPhone for GPS distance. As best I can figure, the USGA prohibits iPhones as a DMD. From more than 2' away, there's no way to tell if someone is using and iPhone or some other sort of smart phone (which may or may not be "legal").

I know plenty of people who use Rangefinders with Slope. There's no way for most people to know if someone else's Rangefinder has slope capability.

We're entitled to ask a fellow competitor (or opponent for that matter) for a specific distance.

The more I read, the simpler the question gets. Are we responsible for the (undisclosed or unknown) breach by an opponent or fellow competitor.
[/quote]

Brian great topic and fun to follow. Just a note for you, with the 2014 rules update the compass is no longer an issue for the iPhone. I assume that's why you thought it was non-conforming.
[/quote]

I can't quite follow the iPhone/Smart Phone machinations. I thought the iPhone was still illegal, because of weather and the availability of weather & inclinometer?

As Sawgrass pointed out. If you're going to allow them, just allow them. Who cares?

& as for the "Slope DMD" with the "different color covers" .... I have the original Leupold that utilized that same theory ... but the USGA subsequently ruled it was illegal.

Why you might ask? Because even though a player was using the DMD with the "slope disabled cover", the device could be "hot wired" to change the function.

Leupold eventually designed a new DMD, that eliminated the possibility of "hot wiring".

The next time you play in a tournament, ask the other 143 competitors if they know "what color cover makes the Leupold or Bushnell DMD legal"? I bet no one knows the answer.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433086455' post='11660618']
I can't quite follow the iPhone/Smart Phone machinations. I thought the iPhone was still illegal, because of weather and the availability of weather & inclinometer?

As Sawgrass pointed out. If you're going to allow them, just allow them. Who cares?

& as for the "Slope DMD" with the "different color covers" .... I have the original Leupold that utilized that same theory ... but the USGA subsequently ruled it was illegal.

Why you might ask? Because even though a player was using the DMD without the "slope disabled cover", the device could be "hot wired" to change the function.

Leupold eventually designed a new DMD, that eliminated the possibility of "hot wiring".

The next time you play in a tournament, ask the other 143 competitors if they know "what color cover makes the Leupold or Bushnell DMD legal"? I bet no one knows the answer.
[/quote]

Sadly, I agree 100% with every point you have made. What a mess! I have a feeling it's very difficult to keep up with the fast changing technology. I agree, just allow everything legal as long as the local rule is in place, and for handicap rounds. As you and Sawgrass said, who really cares?

Kevin

[BlackDiamondPar5]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433086455' post='11660618']
[quote name='Andy L' timestamp='1433085954' post='11660572']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433030409' post='11657930']
[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1432988362' post='11655200']
I would consider the following sentence from 14-3/0.7 to apply in the case of knowingly asking the yardage from someone using an illegal device as knowingly asking for information from an outside agency when the local rule allowing is not in effect. I could be wrong, but that is my interpretation.

[b][size=3]This prohibition in Rule 14-3 would also extend to a player who asks an outside agency to use an artificial device to obtain such distance information for him. [/size][/b]
[/quote]

My original question presumed the Committee had authorized the use of DMD's, Kevin. I didn't make that clear in the original question. Most club tournaments that I'm aware of, authorize the use of DMD's in all club tournaments.

It seems that lately, 20% of the people I play with, are using an iPhone for GPS distance. As best I can figure, the USGA prohibits iPhones as a DMD. From more than 2' away, there's no way to tell if someone is using and iPhone or some other sort of smart phone (which may or may not be "legal").

I know plenty of people who use Rangefinders with Slope. There's no way for most people to know if someone else's Rangefinder has slope capability.

We're entitled to ask a fellow competitor (or opponent for that matter) for a specific distance.

The more I read, the simpler the question gets. Are we responsible for the (undisclosed or unknown) breach by an opponent or fellow competitor.
[/quote]

Brian great topic and fun to follow. Just a note for you, with the 2014 rules update the compass is no longer an issue for the iPhone. I assume that's why you thought it was non-conforming.
[/quote]

I can't quite follow the iPhone/Smart Phone machinations. I thought the iPhone was still illegal, because of weather and the availability of weather & inclinometer?

As Sawgrass pointed out. If you're going to allow them, just allow them. Who cares?

& as for the "Slope DMD" with the "different color covers" .... I have the original Leupold that utilized that same theory ... but the USGA subsequently ruled it was illegal.

Why you might ask? Because even though a player was using the DMD without the "slope disabled cover", the device could be "hot wired" to change the function.

Leupold eventually designed a new DMD, that eliminated the possibility of "hot wiring".

The next time you play in a tournament, ask the other 143 competitors if they know "what color cover makes the Leupold or Bushnell DMD legal"? I bet no one knows the answer.
[/quote]

Regarding weather
[b] 14-3/18[/b]
[b] Weather Information Accessed on Multi-Functional Device[/b]
[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]During a stipulated round, may a player access local weather information (e.g., wind, temperature, humidity) through an application or internet browser on a multi-functional device?[/color]

[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]Yes. The prohibition in Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-14,14-3"]14-3[/url] is only applicable to the specific act of gauging or measuring conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g., through use of an anemometer or a thermometer). [b]When accessing weather reports provided by a weather station through an application or internet browser, the player is not actively measuring or gauging the conditions. (New)[/b][/color]

Regarding Spirit Level
[color=#333333][b]Q14. There are many features and applications available for multi-functional devices that could be used in a way that might assist the player in his play. Are there general guidelines that should be followed to ensure that, if used, they are only used in a way that does not breach Rule 14-3?[/b][/color]
[color=#333333]A14. The following examples are provided to help clarify how a variety of common features and applications can be used in such a way that is not a breach the Rules and how these same features or applications, when used in a different way, would result in a disqualification penalty under Rule 14-3.[/color]
[color=#333333]· Phone, text messaging, email, internet: OK to call home, respond or send a business email, or check the weather; not OK to call a swing coach and discuss your swing.[/color]
[color=#333333]· Camera (still photos and videos): OK to capture your swing and review it [i]after[/i] the round; not OK to review an image or video that was recorded [i]during[/i] the round.[/color]
[color=#333333]· Spirit Level: Use of a spirit level is a breach [i]only[/i] if the level is used in such a way that might assist the player (e.g., measure the slope on the green).[/color]
[color=#333333][url="http://www.usga.org/equipment-standards/frequently-asked-questions-distancemeasuring-devices-21474847525.html"]http://www.usga.org/...1474847525.html[/url][/color]

[BrianL99]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1433086785' post='11660638']
Sadly, I agree 100% with every point you have made. What a mess! I have a feeling it's very difficult to keep up with the fast changing technology. I agree, just allow everything legal as long as the local rule is in place, and for handicap rounds. As you and Sawgrass said, who really cares?

Kevin
[/quote]


Low scores may not have been as prolific, but the game sure was easier to keep up when we were kids!

Here's a blast from the past ...

When Gorgeous George Lucas used to make the yardage books for the guys on Tour, he used a Fishing Rod with a heavy sinker and would cast it out.

For 100 Bonus Points, what did [b]ICYRFU[/b] mean in a George Lucas Yardage Book? (Hint: It did not mark a typical fairway to green distance.)

[KevCarter]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433087804' post='11660712']
Low scores may not have been as prolific, but the game sure was easier to keep up when we were kids!

Here's a blast from the past ...

When Gorgeous George Lucas used to make the yardage books for the guys on Tour, he used a Fishing Rod with a heavy sinker and would cast it out.

For 100 Bonus Points, what did [b]ICYRFU[/b] mean in a George Lucas Yardage Book? (Hint: It did not mark a typical fairway to green distance.)
[/quote]

Not a clue, can't wait to find out!!!

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433043221' post='11658948']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433036629' post='11658412']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433034000' post='11658216']
I guess I never quite understood why the USGA ever decided to allow DMDs.
[/quote]

This was because so many carts have an inbuilt GPS.

[b]It was R&A that opposed allowing DMD's and the current Rule is a compromise.[/b]
[/quote]

That might be an assumption, and perhaps not valid. There are at least three committees which needed to reach concensus - the USGA Rules Committee, the R&A Rules Committee and the Joint Rules Committee. Then it had to go to the USGA Executive Committee and R&A Rules Ltd.
What are you suggesting was a compromise in 2005?
[/quote]

David Rickman from R&A is one who opposes DMD's and through testimonies from people having met him I dare to say that it was R&A who did not want to allow DMD's. Thus they (= RB's) reached a compromise and added the Note in R14-3 allowing DMD's via a Local Rule.

[rogolf]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433110437' post='11662448']
[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433043221' post='11658948']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433036629' post='11658412']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433034000' post='11658216']
I guess I never quite understood why the USGA ever decided to allow DMDs.
[/quote]

This was because so many carts have an inbuilt GPS.

[b]It was R&A that opposed allowing DMD's and the current Rule is a compromise.[/b]
[/quote]

That might be an assumption, and perhaps not valid. There are at least three committees which needed to reach concensus - the USGA Rules Committee, the R&A Rules Committee and the Joint Rules Committee. Then it had to go to the USGA Executive Committee and R&A Rules Ltd.
What are you suggesting was a compromise in 2005?
[/quote]

David Rickman from R&A is one who opposes DMD's and through testimonies from people having met him I dare to say that it was R&A who did not want to allow DMD's. Thus they (= RB's) reached a compromise and added the Note in R14-3 allowing DMD's via a Local Rule.
[/quote]

That's ok for Mr. Rickman to not like DMD, but the R&A Rules Committee (where he is the staff person) and the JRC (where he also sits as staff) all agreed to the initial Decision and later Note to Rule 14-3. I don't like them either, but that doesn't mean the Note is any form of "compromise".

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433111179' post='11662524']
That's ok for Mr. Rickman to not like DMD, but the R&A Rules Committee (where he is the staff person) and the JRC (where he also sits as staff) all agreed to the initial Decision and later Note to Rule 14-3. I don't like them either, but that doesn't mean the Note is any form of "compromise".
[/quote]

Taking into account how few courses actually do not allow DMD's and the number of colf carts in USA equipped with GPS I'd say it is a compromise...

[rogolf]

[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433111605' post='11662556']
[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433111179' post='11662524']
That's ok for Mr. Rickman to not like DMD, but the R&A Rules Committee (where he is the staff person) and the JRC (where he also sits as staff) all agreed to the initial Decision and later Note to Rule 14-3. I don't like them either, but that doesn't mean the Note is any form of "compromise".
[/quote]

Taking into account how few courses actually do not allow DMD's and the number of colf carts in USA equipped with GPS I'd say it is a compromise...
[/quote]

You may think of it as some of compromise, but the Rule-making process of the USGA and R&A is not a match, ie, not win/lose. It's discussion, consensus and agreement; without agreement it doesn't go forward. There are no votes taken. All of the Rules Committees are doing their work for the betterment of our game.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='kevcarter' timestamp='1433092161' post='11660992']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1433087804' post='11660712']
Low scores may not have been as prolific, but the game sure was easier to keep up when we were kids!

Here's a blast from the past ...

When Gorgeous George Lucas used to make the yardage books for the guys on Tour, he used a Fishing Rod with a heavy sinker and would cast it out.

For 100 Bonus Points, what did [b]ICYRFU[/b] mean in a George Lucas Yardage Book? (Hint: It did not mark a typical fairway to green distance.)
[/quote]

Not a clue, can't wait to find out!!!
[/quote]

George's Yardage Books used to have occasional measurements from odd spots ... perhaps from a large tree, located 50 yards off the fairway. These were designated as either "ICYFU" or sometimes, "ICYRFU". "In case you're f___'d up" or "In case you're really f__'d up".

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433112608' post='11662642']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433111605' post='11662556']
[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433111179' post='11662524']
That's ok for Mr. Rickman to not like DMD, but the R&A Rules Committee (where he is the staff person) and the JRC (where he also sits as staff) all agreed to the initial Decision and later Note to Rule 14-3. I don't like them either, but that doesn't mean the Note is any form of "compromise".
[/quote]

Taking into account how few courses actually do not allow DMD's and the number of colf carts in USA equipped with GPS I'd say it is a compromise...
[/quote]

You may think of it as some of compromise, but the Rule-making process of the USGA and R&A is not a match, ie, not win/lose. It's discussion, consensus and agreement; without agreement it doesn't go forward. There are no votes taken. All of the Rules Committees are doing their work for the betterment of our game.
[/quote]

Compromise is often necessary in discussion, consensus, and agreement, so I'm not sure you can use your logic to say there was no compromise.

[rogolf]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1433115254' post='11662836']
[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433112608' post='11662642']
[quote name='Mr. Bean' timestamp='1433111605' post='11662556']
[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433111179' post='11662524']
That's ok for Mr. Rickman to not like DMD, but the R&A Rules Committee (where he is the staff person) and the JRC (where he also sits as staff) all agreed to the initial Decision and later Note to Rule 14-3. I don't like them either, but that doesn't mean the Note is any form of "compromise".
[/quote]

Taking into account how few courses actually do not allow DMD's and the number of colf carts in USA equipped with GPS I'd say it is a compromise...
[/quote]

You may think of it as some of compromise, but the Rule-making process of the USGA and R&A is not a match, ie, not win/lose. It's discussion, consensus and agreement; without agreement it doesn't go forward. There are no votes taken. All of the Rules Committees are doing their work for the betterment of our game.
[/quote]

Compromise is often necessary in discussion, consensus, and agreement, so I'm not sure you can use your logic to say there was no compromise.
[/quote]
Been there, done that, on this topic. It was agreement on the chosen route, not a compromise by anyone.

[HitEmTrue]

If you have knowledge that there was no compromise, great...I'm happy either way.

You seem to be saying there is NEVER compromise between the ruling bodies, or between the members of each body. And that seems unlikely.

[rogolf]

[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1433116314' post='11662924']
If you have knowledge that there was no compromise, great...I'm happy either way.

You seem to be saying there is NEVER compromise between the ruling bodies, or between the members of each body. And that seems unlikely.
[/quote]

Reaching consensus on the right step forward may require people to re-evaluate their own position on the subject, but that doesn't always equate to "compromise". The Japanese have a way of saving face by saying "with new information, we will make a new decision." That does not mean the previous decision was wrong or that they are compromising. It's a neat way of moving forward based on all of the information.

[rapriebe]

[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433116586' post='11662950']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1433116314' post='11662924']
If you have knowledge that there was no compromise, great...I'm happy either way.

You seem to be saying there is NEVER compromise between the ruling bodies, or between the members of each body. And that seems unlikely.
[/quote]

Reaching consensus on the right step forward may require people to re-evaluate their own position on the subject, but that doesn't always equate to "compromise". The Japanese have a way of saving face by saying "with new information, we will make a new decision." That does not mean the previous decision was wrong or that they are compromising. It's a neat way of moving forward based on all of the information.
[/quote]

I've heard the same as others, that the USGA was in favor of allowing DMD's and the R&A was not, so the compromise which they reached consensus on was to allow individual clubs to implement the local rule if they chose to do so.

[rogolf]

[quote name='rapriebe' timestamp='1433122172' post='11663482']
[quote name='rogolf' timestamp='1433116586' post='11662950']
[quote name='HitEmTrue' timestamp='1433116314' post='11662924']
If you have knowledge that there was no compromise, great...I'm happy either way.

You seem to be saying there is NEVER compromise between the ruling bodies, or between the members of each body. And that seems unlikely.
[/quote]

Reaching consensus on the right step forward may require people to re-evaluate their own position on the subject, but that doesn't always equate to "compromise". The Japanese have a way of saving face by saying "with new information, we will make a new decision." That does not mean the previous decision was wrong or that they are compromising. It's a neat way of moving forward based on all of the information.
[/quote]

I've heard the same as others, that the USGA was in favor of allowing DMD's and the R&A was not, so the compromise which they reached consensus on was to allow individual clubs to implement the local rule if they chose to do so.
[/quote]
Then I would consider that a mutual agreement, not a compromise by one or the other. All for the best of our game.