Gender-integrated time slots during the Saturday club competitions

xxio · February 1, 2016

^^ you knew what you were getting into and the possible difficulties (see your wife's DQ). If you were thinking of changing it from within you should have had an idea how to before you signed up.

Otherwise complaining belatedly and then asking for advice now doesn't sound like a man who wanted to change things when he joined.

Loki · February 1, 2016

Were the policies in place before you became a member?
It shouldn't be allowed if it is purely a gender bias.

There are rules that separate the privileges of members and dependents. At my club I am a member, my spouse is a dependent so her playing privileges are different from mine. There are a few female members, so they get the member privileges.

In the end it is club policy that is usually ratified by the general membership. If your fellow member don't mind the policy and it really bothers you, join another club.

We don't have dependents. Mena and women are members. No other category. Everyone pays the same amount, its just that men have more/better access privileges.

Were the policies in place before you became a member?

Yes...but if we take the argument that i should never have joined, then a club would never change.

Your club has what seems to be an out of fashion rule, but it's tough to complain about the lack of tofu when the sign above the door says "STEAKHOUSE" in big neon letters.

?? I thought we were talking about a country club, not a man club.

2bGood · February 1, 2016

Were the policies in place before you became a member?
It shouldn't be allowed if it is purely a gender bias.

There are rules that separate the privileges of members and dependents. At my club I am a member, my spouse is a dependent so her playing privileges are different from mine. There are a few female members, so they get the member privileges.

In the end it is club policy that is usually ratified by the general membership. If your fellow member don't mind the policy and it really bothers you, join another club.

We don't have dependents. Mena and women are members. No other category. Everyone pays the same amount, its just that men have more/better access privileges.

Were the policies in place before you became a member?

Yes...but if we take the argument that i should never have joined, then a club would never change.

It would have changed once it found out that no now wanted to join it. It may turn out the majority of members want to keep it the way it is and other golfers will want to join it because of its policies.

Funny enough the group that I would think would want rule changes the most at that club (the women) seem to want to uphold and enforce the rules - at least in the case of your wifes DQ. As as say this as from what I know of private clubs and women I can pretty much guarantee that no man is running their events or telling them who to DQ.

GeoffDickson · February 1, 2016

^^ you knew what you were getting into and the possible difficulties (see your wife's DQ). If you were thinking of changing it from within you should have had an idea how to before you signed up.

Otherwise complaining belatedly and then asking for advice now doesn't sound like a man who wanted to change things when he joined.

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.

There are worse forms of evil than this.

mdgboxx · February 2, 2016

^^ you knew what you were getting into and the possible difficulties (see your wife's DQ). If you were thinking of changing it from within you should have had an idea how to before you signed up.

Otherwise complaining belatedly and then asking for advice now doesn't sound like a man who wanted to change things when he joined.

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.

There are worse forms of evil than this.

At first, you say you want/enjoy playing with your spouse. Now, it's another woman....!

I have to ask: Does she even want to play with you?

You're scaring me, are you trolling with two threads running?

Forged4ever · February 3, 2016

?? I thought we were talking about a country club, not a man club.

Wait, there's a difference???

:)

Fairways & Greens My Friend,

RP

Forged4ever · February 3, 2016

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.

LMAO, I don't know what your cap is but you be a Playa, lol???

:)

Golfingly Yours,

RP

Forged4ever · February 3, 2016

Look, 90%+ of the country clubs have what many would consider "archaic" rules, policies and procedures and what not-

However, if you were a member's guest for a round and lunch or dinner, you would absolutely love the place, if you've got no axe to grind.

The club employees, the golf staff and the other members~

Most are great people~

Every group has their jerk-offs....

And one thing I know, ya can't fight a multi-front war, especially when it's an individual or a few against a large, better financed better organized group-

I'll admit it here for the first time and that is that one of the female members, who is in the WPa Golf HoF and a former mixed BB Partner(she's like 84-85yo now and was in her 50's when we teamed. She reminded me of my Grandmother), and she's won the every Prestigious District/Regional Am Tourney(she never got a State Am Title, placing 2nd twice and losing in a play-off once) and she had lived with the past policies regarding Ladies.

Well, she decided that she wanted to make it easier for those ladies coming after her, so she picked up the torch, so to speak, with my and Dave's assistance from the "inside."

As most country clubs' bylaws are bullet proof from a legal/lawsuit standpoint, as long as no board members do stupid s*** like leaving a "smoking gun" floating around out there, ie., an e-mail/letter constructed when emotionally charged and angry(this actually happened at another club), and if they're not, shame on the members and board and I'd boot the attorneys who are in charge of that-

Seriously, not off the board-

I'd run their a** outa the club-

If there is a bylaw that leaves a club with exposure, it's his(it's usually a guy) friggin job to bring it to my and the other board members attention so that it can be addressed.

Oh yea, my other point is that the court room is not one's only option~

In our case, I introduced this Matriarch to a Bud who happens a reporter for one of the local TV stations and he would live nothing better than to run a story, with or without our cooperation, about our archaic practice regarding Ladies and their golfing privileges.

Well, no club wants this kind of negative attention broadcast in the press. Even if ya have no connections, call in, speak to someone in the news department and ask em who you should speak to. They'll pass ya on.

We've hosted PGA & USGA events, and are in the rotation for the US as Co-Host with Oakmont, along with having 2 of the 3 largest corporations in town and their executives parked in the lot and they hate negative PR or being linked to it in any way, haha

There's more than one way to take a Big Dog down, lol-

However, if the club has female equity members and they have this policy, even if the female doesn't golf, well, shame on them if they tolerate this-

Why didn't I walk when these policies were in place for 20+ years before I took issue?

Probably like Geoff, I had no skin in the game, for those 20+ years it wasn't an issue and it was accepted.

Hell, we didn't even have female equity members for most of that time~

However most of the Ladies using these slots are the wives of equity Members, not equity members themselves.

Now THAT was a major issue with a few of the "old guard."

Funny story~

I walked into our boardroom and one of the Old Gaurd, around 78-80ish and a retired Chair/CEO of a former Fortune 15 Company and the largest steel company in the country back in the day(70-80's), looked up and chirped "I see you're drinkin the whiskey."

Inside I'm thinking "WTF is he talkin about, I don't even drink whiskey(my drink is gin, two cubes) ," however I replied "pardon me," and he said "you're drinkin the whiskey these gals are givin you."

It hit me and I laughed and said "oh, you mean I'm drinkin the 'kool aid," and I laughed.

He replied,"no, not Kool-Aid, whiskey, because you have to be drunk off your a** to get behind something like this. Either that or your lettin your little head think for your big head with that blonde filly(haha, I asked Madison if I could use this part of the quote. She just laughed)," LMAO

I swear on Pete's grave, lmao, and all I could do was laugh cuz I knew he would never budge and we planned around he and his two buds and moved the other three to our side for the 6-3 vote.

But I got a kick out of that, lol

Though both of those things had probably influenced my thinking in the past, I was pretty stable, or as stable as I can be and thinkin clearly, lol.

It can become a contenscious issue, however I would hope that no one gets self-righteous-

I got too much glass in my house to start passin judgement and though most have the safety of the virtual to lob personal jabs, I'd just worry about myself-

One thing that I'm pretty sure of...

If there's a club that I don't want anything to do with, I seriously doubt that they want anything to do with me :)

Stay Well My Friends,

RP

gsea33 · February 3, 2016

^^ you knew what you were getting into and the possible difficulties (see your wife's DQ). If you were thinking of changing it from within you should have had an idea how to before you signed up.

Otherwise complaining belatedly and then asking for advice now doesn't sound like a man who wanted to change things when he joined.

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.

There are worse forms of evil than this.

Yes there are worse evils than this, don't set your bar very high do you. As with most people you were only motivated by a personal agenda. Sounds like you fit in very well at this narrow minded establishment. Enjoy your membership !!

GeoffDickson · February 5, 2016

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.
LMAO, I don't know what your cap is but you be a Playa, lol???

:)

Golfingly Yours,
RP

I phrased that poorly didn't I :)

The women I really wanted to play with is my wife, and she only started playing 2 years ago. The point I was trying to make was I have always been happy to play with women. I am not one of those guys.

GeoffDickson · February 5, 2016

^^ you knew what you were getting into and the possible difficulties (see your wife's DQ). If you were thinking of changing it from within you should have had an idea how to before you signed up.

Otherwise complaining belatedly and then asking for advice now doesn't sound like a man who wanted to change things when he joined.

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.

There are worse forms of evil than this.

Yes there are worse evils than this, don't set your bar very high do you. As with most people you were only motivated by a personal agenda. Sounds like you fit in very well at this narrow minded establishment. Enjoy your membership !!

Tough crowd.

I understand your arguments - 1) I should not seek to change anything because these the rules were in place when I joined. 2) I am Word not allowedhole because I am motivated by personal benefit. But how you conclude that I "fit in", remains a mystery.

Here is what you don't know.

1. I have lobbied for increased junior involvement in Saturday competitions. I am 45 years old and my kids, neither of whom play golf, are well over 18years old.

2. I have lobbied for increased Maori recognition/symbolism...I am what's known as a pakeha (i.e. visitor). For the culturally unaware, that means I am a white guy. Google Treaty of Waitangi if you have to.

3. And you wouldn't believe the response I got from the club when I encouraged the club to embrace the gay community. See #1 for a hint at my sexuality. One of the great ironies of the segregation policy is that gay couples can play together but not heterosexual couples.

Sometimes you have to pick when you pick the hill you want to die on.

So gsea33, what was the last change initiative you lead at your club that did not benefit you...or had someone done the hard yards before you joined?

I am not seeking validation of my actions from you, just your responses to these questions:

Do you have any experiencing making changes like this?

Has your club ever considered changing gender-segregated time slots on a Saturday?

Did your club go through with it?

Where did the resistance come from...the men or the women?

What harm can come of such a proposal?

gsea33 · February 5, 2016

^^ you knew what you were getting into and the possible difficulties (see your wife's DQ). If you were thinking of changing it from within you should have had an idea how to before you signed up.

Otherwise complaining belatedly and then asking for advice now doesn't sound like a man who wanted to change things when he joined.

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.

There are worse forms of evil than this.

Yes there are worse evils than this, don't set your bar very high do you. As with most people you were only motivated by a personal agenda. Sounds like you fit in very well at this narrow minded establishment. Enjoy your membership !!

Tough crowd.

I understand your arguments - 1) I should not seek to change anything because these the rules were in place when I joined. 2) I am Word not allowedhole because I am motivated by personal benefit. But how you conclude that I "fit in", remains a mystery.

Here is what you don't know.

1. I have lobbied for increased junior involvement in Saturday competitions. I am 45 years old and my kids, neither of whom play golf, are well over 18years old.
2. I have lobbied for increased Maori recognition/symbolism...I am what's known as a pakeha (i.e. visitor). For the culturally unaware, that means I am a white guy. Google Treaty of Waitangi if you have to.
3. And you wouldn't believe the response I got from the club when I encouraged the club to embrace the gay community. See #1 for a hint at my sexuality. One of the great ironies of the segregation policy is that gay couples can play together but not heterosexual couples.

Sometimes you have to pick when you pick the hill you want to die on.

So gsea33, what was the last change initiative you lead at your club that did not benefit you...or had someone done the hard yards before you joined?

I am not seeking validation of my actions from you, just your responses to these questions:

Do you have any experiencing making changes like this?
Has your club ever considered changing gender-segregated time slots on a Saturday?
Did your club go through with it?
Where did the resistance come from...the men or the women?
What harm can come of such a proposal?

First I will say I have no idea of your sexuality and it is irrelevant. Secondly I would not join a private club for this exact reason. Mine is a semi-private/public club that has first call first serve ( women, gay, black, redneck etc.) No dress code because who cares what you look like, can you play? 12 yrs old and younger you play free, reduced membership for those 18 or under or in college until 21. With the Maori reference I assume you are in New Zeland. So as you can see I have never had to deal with any of the stuff you are asking about. But I did make sure of that by joining a modern thinking golf club. As far as you fitting in, remaining a member is enough to support that statement. Want to make a difference, take your money and go else where and enjoy golfing with your wife. Life is short.

xxio · February 5, 2016

So you are already a club "activist" with the lobbying and changes you've achieved.

Congratulations.

With all that experience on the inner workings of the club politics I doubt anyone can add anything more so that you can play with the lady (not your wife I presume). You could've thought of women's rights while you battling for the other causes. It seems a much more basic inequality than the others.

As for your wife's DQ in the other thread, it could be just backlash for all the lobbying that you've been doing.

I hope you do get equality for equal status at your club soon.

GeoffDickson · February 5, 2016

So you are already a club "activist" with the lobbying and changes you've achieved.

Congratulations.

With all that experience on the inner workings of the club politics I doubt anyone can add anything more so that you can play with the lady (not your wife I presume). You could've thought of women's rights while you battling for the other causes. It seems a much more basic inequality than the others.

As for your wife's DQ in the other thread, it could be just backlash for all the lobbying that you've been doing.

I hope you do get equality for equal status at your club soon.

An unsuccessful club activist :)

I don't think of myself of an activist, just someone who occasionally sees a way of improving things.

I clarified above that "the women I really wanted to play with is my wife". My bad for the poor choice of words. The woman I want to play with is my wife, but I am happy to play with any women.

Yes, your backlash theory has some merit.

GeoffDickson · February 5, 2016

^^ you knew what you were getting into and the possible difficulties (see your wife's DQ). If you were thinking of changing it from within you should have had an idea how to before you signed up.

Otherwise complaining belatedly and then asking for advice now doesn't sound like a man who wanted to change things when he joined.

I am happy to acknowledge that I only got motivated to change things when a woman I really wanted to play with joined the club....and started to play on Saturdays.

There are worse forms of evil than this.

Yes there are worse evils than this, don't set your bar very high do you. As with most people you were only motivated by a personal agenda. Sounds like you fit in very well at this narrow minded establishment. Enjoy your membership !!

Tough crowd.

I understand your arguments - 1) I should not seek to change anything because these the rules were in place when I joined. 2) I am Word not allowedhole because I am motivated by personal benefit. But how you conclude that I "fit in", remains a mystery.

Here is what you don't know.

1. I have lobbied for increased junior involvement in Saturday competitions. I am 45 years old and my kids, neither of whom play golf, are well over 18years old.
2. I have lobbied for increased Maori recognition/symbolism...I am what's known as a pakeha (i.e. visitor). For the culturally unaware, that means I am a white guy. Google Treaty of Waitangi if you have to.
3. And you wouldn't believe the response I got from the club when I encouraged the club to embrace the gay community. See #1 for a hint at my sexuality. One of the great ironies of the segregation policy is that gay couples can play together but not heterosexual couples.

Sometimes you have to pick when you pick the hill you want to die on.

So gsea33, what was the last change initiative you lead at your club that did not benefit you...or had someone done the hard yards before you joined?

I am not seeking validation of my actions from you, just your responses to these questions:

Do you have any experiencing making changes like this?
Has your club ever considered changing gender-segregated time slots on a Saturday?
Did your club go through with it?
Where did the resistance come from...the men or the women?
What harm can come of such a proposal?

First I will say I have no idea of your sexuality and it is irrelevant. Secondly I would not join a private club for this exact reason. Mine is a semi-private/public club that has first call first serve ( women, gay, black, redneck etc.) No dress code because who cares what you look like, can you play? 12 yrs old and younger you play free, reduced membership for those 18 or under or in college until 21. With the Maori reference I assume you are in New Zeland. So as you can see I have never had to deal with any of the stuff you are asking about. But I did make sure of that by joining a modern thinking golf club. As far as you fitting in, remaining a member is enough to support that statement. Want to make a difference, take your money and go else where and enjoy golfing with your wife. Life is short.

I'll make a difference by making things change...from within. And if and when I lose, then your recommendation will be an option.

The reason I shared the example was to highlight that not every one of my "suggestions" to the committee was motivated by personal gain.

My point is that perhaps the reason you can enjoy all of those privileges is that someone brought about those changes by arguing for those changes AFTER they joined...or that this happened at other clubs which made it possible for your club to embrace quality and equity from its inception.