Gender-integrated time slots during the Saturday club competitions

[GeoffDickson]

I am about to begin lobbying my club to allow a gender-integrated time slots during the Saturday competition.

 

My club allows women to play on a Saturday, but only in the morning slot between 8.38 and 0900, and an afternoon slot between 12.52 and 12.59. The club does not allow men to play with women and the women to play with men. This prevents my wife and I from playing with each other - even if I am in a twosome at the end of the men's field and my wife is in a foursome behind me.

 

The club's argument is that if we want to play together, we can do so on a Sunday.

 

In my assessment, the clubs current policies is a throwback to the days when there were fewer women in the workforce (hence if they played golf, they could/should play during the week)...and maybe even to those days when women were tolerated but not exactly welcomed with great enthusiasm.

 

I accept that not all women are comfortable playing with men...and that not all men are comfortable with playing with women. Therefore, I am going to suggest a middle ground - a mixed zone of say 45 mins where both genders can put their names down in a time slot. Don't what to play with someone from another gender, then simply stay out of this zone. Happy to play or want to play with a person of different gender, then put your name down here. To me this looks like a win without any sort of losers being created.

 

Do you have any experiencing making changes like this?

 

Has your club ever considered changing gender-segregated time slots on a Saturday?

 

Did your club go through with it?

 

Where did the resistance come from...the men or the women?

 

What harm can come of such a proposal?

[demand]

I have no opinion on the matter but do you think there are men at the club whose wives would like to play with them Saturday morning but the current set of rules prevents that and the husband(s) would like to keep it that way?

 

 

[gsea33]

personally I would quit that archaic club, it is the oughts !!!

[golfgirlrobin]

Always amazes me. People who would never join a club that discriminated against blacks or Jews have no issue joining clubs that discriminate against women.

 

Good luck trying to drag your club into the current century (or even the last).

[Mr22putt]

Aside from men only and women only golf clubs....IMO....there should not be a men's initiation fee and a lower women's initiation fee...just an adult initiation fee that allows full access to the tee sheet on everyday....except for men's or women's night/league play.

 

For those clubs where women currently have a lower initiation and limited access....women who want full access should be assessed an increase in initiation (determined by the club's BofD's) with the same monthly due as the men and therefore have full access to the tee sheet.

 

I just don't get all this women and men who don't want to play together....I've played golf for over 45 years and have never refused playing with a woman and I enjoy playing golf with women and men.

[oregongolf]

I am about to begin lobbying my club to allow a gender-integrated time slots during the Saturday competition.

 

My club allows women to play on a Saturday, but only in the morning slot between 8.38 and 0900, and an afternoon slot between 12.52 and 12.59. The club does not allow men to play with women and the women to play with men. This prevents my wife and I from playing with each other - even if I am in a twosome at the end of the men's field and my wife is in a foursome behind me.

 

The club's argument is that if we want to play together, we can do so on a Sunday.

 

In my assessment, the clubs current policies is a throwback to the days when there were fewer women in the workforce (hence if they played golf, they could/should play during the week)...and maybe even to those days when women were tolerated but not exactly welcomed with great enthusiasm.

 

I accept that not all women are comfortable playing with men...and that not all men are comfortable with playing with women. Therefore, I am going to suggest a middle ground - a mixed zone of say 45 mins where both genders can put their names down in a time slot. Don't what to play with someone from another gender, then simply stay out of this zone. Happy to play or want to play with a person of different gender, then put your name down here. To me this looks like a win without any sort of losers being created.

 

Do you have any experiencing making changes like this?

 

Has your club ever considered changing gender-segregated time slots on a Saturday?

 

Did your club go through with it?

 

Where did the resistance come from...the men or the women?

 

What harm can come of such a proposal?

 

The powers that be at your club should read up on what happened to Spokane Country Club. Kind of a unique situation there with some truly world class idiots driving the bus off the cliff because a handful of men couldn't handle womens presence.

 

It has especially affected a lot of clubs in the NW, mostly to at least appear to be more inclusive with both genders.

[2bGood]

I have no issue with some times set aside for just men and just women. At our club that only happens during the week though and the weekends are free for anyone to play with anyone.

[xxio]

It shouldn't be allowed if it is purely a gender bias.

 

There are rules that separate the privileges of members and dependents. At my club I am a member, my spouse is a dependent so her playing privileges are different from mine. There are a few female members, so they get the member privileges.

 

In the end it is club policy that is usually ratified by the general membership. If your fellow member don't mind the policy and it really bothers you, join another club.

[Mr22putt]

The powers that be at your club should read up on what happened to Spokane Country Club. Kind of a unique situation there with some truly world class idiots driving the bus off the cliff because a handful of men couldn't handle womens presence.

 

It has especially affected a lot of clubs in the NW, mostly to at least appear to be more inclusive with both genders.

I had to do a Google....now the club is claiming bankruptcy....lol.

 

Marine Drive also had a lawsuit that cost the member's in litigation....though no issues with bankruptcy.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=27b112af-94af-4ab1-8358-df800aecec38

[xxio]

Were the policies in place before you became a member?

[rsj1360]

And yet another example of why I'd never join a club.

[Damo75]

Our club opened up all-day Saturday play to women a couple of years ago. Mixed groups can play in any tee slot though there is still seperate competitions.

 

Hasn't caused any issues at all.

[billh17]

Our club has only the mens and the womens leagues one night during the week..other than that,tee times are wide open. Any given day

you are just as likely to be paired with a woman .I really dont think I would want to belong to your club. Some people are very slow

to change,but eventually they will. Even Augusta. Some will try to set the bar so high that they will maintain their status quo,but that will

change too.I bet they trot out the old "slow play" arguments every time the subject is discussed . Good luck to you on trying to get changes made.

[Forged4ever]

Hey Geoff, I hope all's well!!

 

Happy New Year :)

 

Bro, "a" slot between 12:52-12:59???

 

Seriously, WTF is that?!?!?

 

That's a slap in the face and I'd be embarrassed, no strike that, I would not sit on a board that would put something like that into place. That sounds and looks like a knee-jerk and jerk-off reaction to a member or more likely members complaining and the board said, fine, you want to play on Saturday before 3:00(or whatever the time is), here, here's your slot."

 

I play(actually that's past tense as health issues have kept me out of the game since 2013) out of the Pittsburgh Field Club and am a past board member along with Golf Chair and member and Chair of various golf committees, so I've sat in those meetings with those A**H****.

 

Before you go to the board, I would approach privately whomever on the board that you are close to and discuss this and get a gauge for what the current board attitude would be and whom and how you should proceed and basicly design a game plan for introducing this.

 

If you want to bring about change, especially in this type of setting, where f***** up century old views and beliefs are still held and you have some impotent little men who will protect these views at all costs, you cannot just appear at an open meeting or send off a letter.

 

You can, of course, though you read it here~

 

Nothing will come of it

 

They will acknowledge you, patronize you and thank you for your time and say that they will have "so and so" and his committee look into it and see what options are available to them at this time.

 

We Played a Saturday morning swat and were first off, from 8:08 to 8.56 and we were short a Player.

 

Well, my Fiancé, a +3.4 and a Golf Professional, had dropped me off and was still at the club talking to my father and a few other men.

 

As this was a "scratch" swat(no caps), everyone was basically scratch/Plus, we were trying to find the last individual and I remembered that Madison was still there so I ran up and talked her into Playing. As she had Played in both our Inter-Club and "Moonlighters" swats, she knew all of the guys and they love her, lol, so she said sure.

 

Well, she was in the group behind me and as we were teeing off, another board member, one of the "old guard," had seen her standing on the first tee swinging and he walked out and asked to speak to me. He asked me "What in the hell do you think you're doing," as though I was breaking some sacred law. I knew exactly to what he was referring though I replied, "gettin ready to go win some money."

 

He responded that she was not to tee off and as a board member it was my duty to abide by the by-laws and rules that I had been elected to "protect."

 

I responded that "it is time for a change in a few of those and it's gonna start today."

 

Now, I realize that you may not be able to do this.

 

I do not act or shoot from the hip, though it may appear that way, lol.

 

Before I went to get Madison, basically "played through(visualized)" the likely scenarios that would Play out.

 

This type of confrontation was one of them.

 

However I knew that as a 37+ year member, board member, 4-time Club Champion, and friends with most of the guys on the tee that morning, at least all the guys who had influence, I was pretty bullet proof if I didn't let my temper get in the way, haha.

 

It didn't.

 

The guys welcomed Maddie, we Played(she won some coin, lol) and it brought to the table an issue that another board member and my BFF, Dave, had wanted to address for some time-

 

Namely, opening up the tee box-

 

We're an "old school, white shoe" club, though as I've said here before, and also reminded arrogant members, we ain't that "white shoe" cuz we started because a bunch of Catholics couldn't join the club across the street. My point is noone wants to be the first. Oakmont doesn't. Fox Chapel GC doesn't. Sewickley Hgts doesn't and St. Clair sure the hell doesn't.

 

But it was time for a change, and the fact that I had skin in the game(Maddie), well, I'll just say that you're gonna get everything I got, lol-

 

It wasn't done overnight, in fact it took 9-10 months to "integrate" the tee times/blocks, however we did the right thing.

 

I've always been lucky, and yea, it's been luck, in that I've been in some positions to motivate others to change things for the better-

 

It just sickens me when a Man(yea, this is a guy thing) is in that position, and they just settle for the status quo.

 

That's pathetic...

 

And Stoneless(again, a guy thing)-

 

So, gets your ducks in order, devise a plan, and execute it!!

 

And do not limit yourself to one outcome, all or nothing!!

 

Have 2, optimally 3 outcomes, sort of a best/worst and most likely-

 

You could also present a "trial" option, as in every other Saturday(or whatever day) and give legitimate slots for the Ladies. I realize that it's not the best case(this is how we proceeded and I just wanted to get my foot in the door, so to speak because I was gonna kick the son of a b**** in with my other foot, lol) however it's a start, and it shows some guys who may be on that fence that you're a reasonable man, not a zealot on a mission-

 

And the very best to ya Bro, It'd be an honor to plant the tee with you any day :)

 

My Best,

RP

[Emthree]

My club changed their policy in the late 90s and it wasnt just women, it was us juniors who got specific 'non-prime' slots too.

 

If i recall correctly, the main argument against an all inclusive tee sheet was pace of play concerns (although im certain it was snobby old man syndrome too). They assumed women would slow everyone down during the saturday morning 9-12 rush.

 

Majority of the members thought it was a stupid idea, but it was the few fat cats in charge that objected.

[Forged4ever]

For the record, in a casual round, for fun, I prefer to Play with a Lady.

 

They're more relaxed, more fun, have better Etiquitte than 95% of the guys(and this includes the guys that I normally Played with, scratch/Pluses) and make me smile....

 

I'm intense and a switch goes on when I'm with guys, with the exception of my Bro and my BFF, that doesn't go on when I Play with a Lady, even if she's a Plus or a Pro~

 

LMAO, I could beat 99.50% of the guys out there and if there was a Lady who could beat me(as Madison did half the time), so what?

 

It's good to humbled now and again, lmao

 

Stay Well My Friends & have a Great week :)

 

All the Best,

Richard

[Forged4ever]

The other thing that I would say and I forgot this in my initial post and that is do not put your Pro in the center of this-

 

It's not fair to them and they should be kept on the sidelines, for their own protection-

 

I am very close to our Pro and that, combined with his feelings for Madison as a friend and Professional Peer, well, he was going to write a letter-

 

I said absolutely not!!

 

#1, Maddie is not your typical Female Golfer. Obviously, lol. #2, she wasn't a member, though like all Class A's who visit our club, they can tee it up anytime they want(Until this tee box issue, getting this passed was my proudest initiative. Initially, the club would consider who the Pro was, and decide if they would "allow" them to Play. I said, you got the card, you got the honor, lol. That was an easy one though, haha. Hell, I won the straw vote. This issue, I was down 3-6 in the straw vote. We ended up turning that around and caried it 6-3).

 

#2, I am a lightning rod. I've known this since I was young. You either like me or ya don't. I could care less, though I'd prefer to be your friend. Well, I didn't want Madison or this Pro to have negative repercussions because of their perceived link to me. I told this to our Pro. I appreciated his loyalty however I try to minimize collateral damage, especially when they're my peeps.

 

Even if he is an advisor to the board, I would quietly ask him to recuse himself from this matter, as it is a membership issue, not a golf issue.

 

So I'd just do your best to just make this a board issue, cuz at the end of the day, it is exactly that-

 

Fairways & Greens My Friend,

RP

[HoffTTM]

Outside of the roll up games all non competition tee times are a free for all at my club, one of the roll ups is also a mixed affair at 10:20 on Saturdays.

 

It is a fairly modern club though, have been a member at a couple other clubs where that is nowhere near the case.

[RSinSG]

When you hear these kinds of stories how do you not think Bushwood and Judge Smails?

[Loki]

I am about to begin lobbying my club to allow a gender-integrated time slots during the Saturday competition.

 

My club allows women to play on a Saturday, but only in the morning slot between 8.38 and 0900, and an afternoon slot between 12.52 and 12.59. The club does not allow men to play with women and the women to play with men. This prevents my wife and I from playing with each other - even if I am in a twosome at the end of the men's field and my wife is in a foursome behind me.

 

The club's argument is that if we want to play together, we can do so on a Sunday.

 

In my assessment, the clubs current policies is a throwback to the days when there were fewer women in the workforce (hence if they played golf, they could/should play during the week)...and maybe even to those days when women were tolerated but not exactly welcomed with great enthusiasm.

 

I accept that not all women are comfortable playing with men...and that not all men are comfortable with playing with women. Therefore, I am going to suggest a middle ground - a mixed zone of say 45 mins where both genders can put their names down in a time slot. Don't what to play with someone from another gender, then simply stay out of this zone. Happy to play or want to play with a person of different gender, then put your name down here. To me this looks like a win without any sort of losers being created.

 

Do you have any experiencing making changes like this?

 

Has your club ever considered changing gender-segregated time slots on a Saturday?

 

Did your club go through with it?

 

Where did the resistance come from...the men or the women?

 

What harm can come of such a proposal?

 

The powers that be at your club should read up on what happened to Spokane Country Club. Kind of a unique situation there with some truly world class idiots driving the bus off the cliff because a handful of men couldn't handle womens presence.

 

It has especially affected a lot of clubs in the NW, mostly to at least appear to be more inclusive with both genders.

 

Looks like the members are still able to play the course and be members. Wonder if the tribe got rid of the bad apples.

[bazinky]

This is just another example of why I always laugh when I hear someone at a club lamenting about how to "grow" the game of golf and attract new members. I've never seen an industry that so blatantly ignores a large and potentially profitable segment of the market.

 

One of the reasons I joined my current club was because it didn't have any of these archaic gender rules. Although my wife and daughter don't currently play (my 8-year old is starting to show some interest), I would never join a club that treats them as second-class because of their gender.

[raholland71]

As others have stated, I would find a new club.

 

My favorite golfing partner is my wife, and I'm very fortunate that she's as passionate about the game as I am. I believe that there's a stigma that all female golfers are awful and take forever to play. We went out for a late 9 on Saturday and played behind a 5-some the entire time with no opportunities to play through. While I don't know this for a fact, I have to believe that it's because they saw there was a woman behind them and they thought she would slow them down. Terrible logic, but unfortunately this happens more often than not.

 

OP. I hope your club comes around and opens all saturday tee times to women

[GeoffDickson]

I have no opinion on the matter but do you think there are men at the club whose wives would like to play with them Saturday morning but the current set of rules prevents that and the husband(s) would like to keep it that way?

 

Never thought of that. Thanks.

 

I would hate to be married to someone and not want to play golf with them. Just another reason why i am the luckiest guy in the world.

[GeoffDickson]

Always amazes me. People who would never join a club that discriminated against blacks or Jews have no issue joining clubs that discriminate against women.

 

Good luck trying to drag your club into the current century (or even the last).

 

I think I will use the racial/religious angle....

 

Dear club president,

 

Do you think would be a good idea to restrict the access of Maori golfers?

 

Of course you don't, so why do we have such a policy for women?

[GeoffDickson]

Were the policies in place before you became a member?

It shouldn't be allowed if it is purely a gender bias.

 

There are rules that separate the privileges of members and dependents. At my club I am a member, my spouse is a dependent so her playing privileges are different from mine. There are a few female members, so they get the member privileges.

 

In the end it is club policy that is usually ratified by the general membership. If your fellow member don't mind the policy and it really bothers you, join another club.

 

We don't have dependents. Mena and women are members. No other category. Everyone pays the same amount, its just that men have more/better access privileges.

 

Were the policies in place before you became a member?

 

Yes...but if we take the argument that i should never have joined, then a club would never change.

[GeoffDickson]

Hey Geoff, I hope all's well!!

 

Happy New Year :)

 

Bro, "a" slot between 12:52-12:59???

 

Seriously, WTF is that?!?!?

 

That's a slap in the face and I'd be embarrassed, no strike that, I would not sit on a board that would put something like that into place. That sounds and looks like a knee-jerk and jerk-off reaction to a member or more likely members complaining and the board said, fine, you want to play on Saturday before 3:00(or whatever the time is), here, here's your slot."

 

I play(actually that's past tense as health issues have kept me out of the game since 2013) out of the Pittsburgh Field Club and am a past board member along with Golf Chair and member and Chair of various golf committees, so I've sat in those meetings with those A**H****.

 

Before you go to the board, I would approach privately whomever on the board that you are close to and discuss this and get a gauge for what the current board attitude would be and whom and how you should proceed and basicly design a game plan for introducing this.

 

If you want to bring about change, especially in this type of setting, where f***** up century old views and beliefs are still held and you have some impotent little men who will protect these views at all costs, you cannot just appear at an open meeting or send off a letter.

 

You can, of course, though you read it here~

 

Nothing will come of it

 

They will acknowledge you, patronize you and thank you for your time and say that they will have "so and so" and his committee look into it and see what options are available to them at this time.

 

We Played a Saturday morning swat and were first off, from 8:08 to 8.56 and we were short a Player.

 

Well, my Fiancé, a +3.4 and a Golf Professional, had dropped me off and was still at the club talking to my father and a few other men.

 

As this was a "scratch" swat(no caps), everyone was basically scratch/Plus, we were trying to find the last individual and I remembered that Madison was still there so I ran up and talked her into Playing. As she had Played in both our Inter-Club and "Moonlighters" swats, she knew all of the guys and they love her, lol, so she said sure.

 

Well, she was in the group behind me and as we were teeing off, another board member, one of the "old guard," had seen her standing on the first tee swinging and he walked out and asked to speak to me. He asked me "What in the hell do you think you're doing," as though I was breaking some sacred law. I knew exactly to what he was referring though I replied, "gettin ready to go win some money."

 

He responded that she was not to tee off and as a board member it was my duty to abide by the by-laws and rules that I had been elected to "protect."

 

I responded that "it is time for a change in a few of those and it's gonna start today."

 

Now, I realize that you may not be able to do this.

 

I do not act or shoot from the hip, though it may appear that way, lol.

 

Before I went to get Madison, basically "played through(visualized)" the likely scenarios that would Play out.

 

This type of confrontation was one of them.

 

However I knew that as a 37+ year member, board member, 4-time Club Champion, and friends with most of the guys on the tee that morning, at least all the guys who had influence, I was pretty bullet proof if I didn't let my temper get in the way, haha.

 

It didn't.

 

The guys welcomed Maddie, we Played(she won some coin, lol) and it brought to the table an issue that another board member and my BFF, Dave, had wanted to address for some time-

 

Namely, opening up the tee box-

 

We're an "old school, white shoe" club, though as I've said here before, and also reminded arrogant members, we ain't that "white shoe" cuz we started because a bunch of Catholics couldn't join the club across the street. My point is noone wants to be the first. Oakmont doesn't. Fox Chapel GC doesn't. Sewickley Hgts doesn't and St. Clair sure the hell doesn't.

 

But it was time for a change, and the fact that I had skin in the game(Maddie), well, I'll just say that you're gonna get everything I got, lol-

 

It wasn't done overnight, in fact it took 9-10 months to "integrate" the tee times/blocks, however we did the right thing.

 

I've always been lucky, and yea, it's been luck, in that I've been in some positions to motivate others to change things for the better-

 

It just sickens me when a Man(yea, this is a guy thing) is in that position, and they just settle for the status quo.

 

That's pathetic...

 

And Stoneless(again, a guy thing)-

 

So, gets your ducks in order, devise a plan, and execute it!!

 

And do not limit yourself to one outcome, all or nothing!!

 

Have 2, optimally 3 outcomes, sort of a best/worst and most likely-

 

You could also present a "trial" option, as in every other Saturday(or whatever day) and give legitimate slots for the Ladies. I realize that it's not the best case(this is how we proceeded and I just wanted to get my foot in the door, so to speak because I was gonna kick the son of a b**** in with my other foot, lol) however it's a start, and it shows some guys who may be on that fence that you're a reasonable man, not a zealot on a mission-

 

And the very best to ya Bro, It'd be an honor to plant the tee with you any day :)

 

My Best,

RP

 

Thanks Richard for the encouragement.

 

I think I will present two options.

 

The nuclear option - you call it the all or nothing option - which is too make all tee times available to both genders.

 

The mixed zone option, which creates times for both genders to play together.

[GeoffDickson]

This is just another example of why I always laugh when I hear someone at a club lamenting about how to "grow" the game of golf and attract new members. I've never seen an industry that so blatantly ignores a large and potentially profitable segment of the market.

 

One of the reasons I joined my current club was because it didn't have any of these archaic gender rules. Although my wife and daughter don't currently play (my 8-year old is starting to show some interest), I would never join a club that treats them as second-class because of their gender.

 

Agreed. Our club has three female junior golfers...and to the best of knowledge, no female member between the ages of 16 and 40.

[GeoffDickson]

The other thing that I would say and I forgot this in my initial post and that is do not put your Pro in the center of this-

 

It's not fair to them and they should be kept on the sidelines, for their own protection-

 

I am very close to our Pro and that, combined with his feelings for Madison as a friend and Professional Peer, well, he was going to write a letter-

 

I said absolutely not!!

 

#1, Maddie is not your typical Female Golfer. Obviously, lol. #2, she wasn't a member, though like all Class A's who visit our club, they can tee it up anytime they want(Until this tee box issue, getting this passed was my proudest initiative. Initially, the club would consider who the Pro was, and decide if they would "allow" them to Play. I said, you got the card, you got the honor, lol. That was an easy one though, haha. Hell, I won the straw vote. This issue, I was down 3-6 in the straw vote. We ended up turning that around and caried it 6-3).

 

#2, I am a lightning rod. I've known this since I was young. You either like me or ya don't. I could care less, though I'd prefer to be your friend. Well, I didn't want Madison or this Pro to have negative repercussions because of their perceived link to me. I told this to our Pro. I appreciated his loyalty however I try to minimize collateral damage, especially when they're my peeps.

 

Even if he is an advisor to the board, I would quietly ask him to recuse himself from this matter, as it is a membership issue, not a golf issue.

 

So I'd just do your best to just make this a board issue, cuz at the end of the day, it is exactly that-

 

Fairways & Greens My Friend,

RP

 

Our golf pro is not part of my equation. Agreed that it is a board issue.

[GeoffDickson]

As others have stated, I would find a new club.

 

My favorite golfing partner is my wife, and I'm very fortunate that she's as passionate about the game as I am. I believe that there's a stigma that all female golfers are awful and take forever to play. We went out for a late 9 on Saturday and played behind a 5-some the entire time with no opportunities to play through. While I don't know this for a fact, I have to believe that it's because they saw there was a woman behind them and they thought she would slow them down. Terrible logic, but unfortunately this happens more often than not.

 

OP. I hope your club comes around and opens all saturday tee times to women

 

Agreed. I think that "slow play" will be the first of many weak excuses put on the table to defend the status quo. All that research about the causes of slow play, and I never saw gender mentioned once.

[dukeman]

Were the policies in place before you became a member?

It shouldn't be allowed if it is purely a gender bias.

 

There are rules that separate the privileges of members and dependents. At my club I am a member, my spouse is a dependent so her playing privileges are different from mine. There are a few female members, so they get the member privileges.

 

In the end it is club policy that is usually ratified by the general membership. If your fellow member don't mind the policy and it really bothers you, join another club.

 

We don't have dependents. Mena and women are members. No other category. Everyone pays the same amount, its just that men have more/better access privileges.

 

Were the policies in place before you became a member?

 

Yes...but if we take the argument that i should never have joined, then a club would never change.

 

 

 

Your club has what seems to be an out of fashion rule, but it's tough to complain about the lack of tofu when the sign above the door says "STEAKHOUSE" in big neon letters.