Confessions 12 --- Exploding Heads

[DeNinny]

Understanding the physics of golf has made MY journey much, much more enjoyable. In fact it has become something inseparable from it. I have a much clearer path on what equipment I play and what I need to change in my swing. It has enhanced my romance with the game. And every time I have to explain it, my understanding becomes a little more refined and polished, which further enhances my romance and is also why I like discussing it so much. And yes, it is completely non-negotiable. "It is what it is..."

 

I work with some highly experienced HVAC techs. LOL and some don't like an engineer messing around with their equipment, so I stay out of their way unless they need my help. I really like working with and learning from the experienced guys too. They are stubborn at times but are also a wealth of information. And being on the same page about the physics and chemistry of an issue is the ultimate goal of every troubleshooting study. Every now and then we take bets about the right solution to a problem, and it is all in good fun since we care more about the science being right in the end. Winning the bet is always secondary.

 

Haha!

 

There HAS to be a simple reason why I have something in common with your HVAC techs.

 

The only way to get along with a competent/experienced "working tech" is to gain his confidence/trust.

 

How do we reach that goal, you ask?

 

Eventually, you will have to privately discredit a fellow engineer. Whenever the quotes/plans/conceptions/installations are not respected "to the letter", and supervision is left to a skimpy bureaucrat, you're asking for trouble.

 

It's simple enough to evaluate the size of any system. Unsupervised contractors will deliberately ignore valid access for routine maintenance, and repairs or upgrade.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but wasn't the Bay of Mexico oil spill disaster traced back to a bureaucrat who made the decision to omit the installation of a safety valve, so he could save 4 1/2 hrs in cost?

 

Last I heard, he wasn't put on death row for High Treason.

 

How many car mechanics do you know that will willfully promote one brand over all others?

 

Absolutely an engineer needs to earn the respect and trust of experienced techs! That is something I learned early in my career. If an engineer does not get along well with techs, then he better be VERY good and keep tabs on everything, which is next to impossible. So the better tact is to work WITH the techs as a team, and also I feel an engineer needs to "walk a mile" in the techs shoes. The LAST thing an engineer should do is alienate himself from the experienced techs. He can easily, as you say, be "discredited" for nearly anything that may have been missed in the design and construction of a system.

 

I think the ultimate goal in the design of a system is to keep the priority for operations and maintenance at the highest level. Unfortunately there is a mentality in construction and design to keep the project cost low, which makes the later operational expenses high. I don't think this is a good mentality and I often get frustrated with budget cutting project managers. Obviously there needs to be a balance, but if the ultimate goal is TOTAL cost of ownership, then one should not cut corners in the design just to save a little money that will end up costing MORE to address later. And any project team that I am on, I want and demand, if possible, that there be a senior experienced tech involved in the design so that things like easy access and maintenance are incorporated. Also in my experience, the best design engineers are the ones that have had operations experience.

 

LOL I have seen many project managers get promoted for low budget projects and then they move on but yet years later the engineers and techs are fixing things that weren't funded and built during the original project.

 

THAT! (BOLD)

 

I (we) call them bureaucrats (yingyingneers, no yang. lol) :bigwhack: and you must refer to them as Project Managers...Protocol, I get it. LMAO :good:

 

LMAO you must have been screwed more than a few times with poorly designed systems for that kind of animosity towards bureaucrats. If I'm getting screwed over in a design due to cost cutting, I just make sure my boss and the "project manager" know it! I document it in an email and then I save that email in my archives. "So you are asking me why that safety valve was removed in the design? Well, Mr. Investigator, let's just look at this old email where it was in the design and I requested that it stay in the design. You may need to get the answer from my boss and the project manager at the time." I still may get fired for the design, 'cause $hit rolls downhill, but at least I will sleep at night knowing I tried to do the right thing.

 

And LOL another way to screw over an engineer is to request that they write the procedure for fixing an issue or for doing maintenance. Most will NEVER think of all the steps that a tech actually has to perform and so if it goes wrong based on following the procedure verbatim, you can always blame the engineer for it. The way that I get around it is to make the tech and I "dry run" the procedure first, where we both go out in the field and perform the procedure without actually doing it and moving valves and such. Then we edit the procedure TOGETHER. This way the tech is just as responsible for it!

[DeNinny]

Both courses have great greens. They're public golf courses and they're never going to roll like a country club, but they each have very good greenskeepers with good staffs. The whole thing with the Poa Annua is mostly with these super hot days and lots of irrigation, it grows super quick and pops those little white blooms. When the green is getting lots of use, you have ball marks, spike marks, poa sprouts, break, grain, etc. etc. etc. - it becomes a little overwhelming. I think my putting is improving more due to attitude and expectations than anything else at this point. I'm trying to make every putt, but I'm also conscientious that I want to err on leaving myself the shortest putt possible from outside 20 or 25 feet. Centennial has enormous greens that make me more nervous than having the same shot with a wedge in my hand.

 

As far as bounce... one last time :)

 

I have a 56 with about 14 degrees and a 60 with 6. So, I can't hit shots with the same loft and different bounce. But, I can't reconcile that we wouldn't want to play extremes in bounce. A 2 degree 8 iron and a 14 degree 3 iron each would be a disaster in their own right. But, for instance, when chunk and running a shot from a sand trap I want the higher bounce. As for the physics, I fully admit, I don't know nor really want to know at this point what's going on. I personally feel there is a bigger margin for error as for speed, contact point in the sand, depth of bottoming the club, amount of follow through, etc.

 

I have been hitting my 60 out of the sand more frequently, but there is something to the low bounce that the leading edge wants to dig and slow the follow through. I probably hit better shots with more spin, just like off of grass, but it seems more probably to go really wrong. Just as many of us have said repeatedly, sometimes you want a scalpel and sometimes a bludgeoning tool. Precise contact is a benefit on a super tight lie, but correct speed and follow through is more important on softer surfaces, especially sand, and that's easier for me to focus on when I'm not as worried about bottoming the club and contacting the sand in EXACTLY the right spot.

 

...

 

I am very with you about being intimidated (at times) by large greens and having to putt on them. There is a point where you just don't practice those really long putts as much and so confidence in them is much lower than the same distance chip shot with a wedge. Some of it is based on confidence but also sometimes you want to have the ball get some air time before it starts rolling.

 

And LOL regarding "one last time" discussing bounce. I can go as long as you want on this topic.

 

If you want the higher bounce in the sand and don't care about the physics, that is fine! All I have ever stated is simply the true physics of what it does, and it was discussed earlier that the overall amount % of it contributing to a tangible benefit OR detriment is negligible when compared to the golfer's own error with his own techniques. We are talking about 2mm or so of extra metal on the bottom of the club. The theory says that that extra 2mm is going to displace more sand and whether or not this is going to make the club dig less or dig slower, when you look at that extra total mass of sand moved by that extra 2mm, that really isn't a lot of mass to begin with. But hey, if the psychology of it gives you the confidence, then absolutely that will override this marginal amount of physics.

 

As to your 60* experience in the sand, until you compare directly (as per my challenge) how a low bounce 60* works vs a high bounce one, you really will never know what I am talking about. Or you could use a low vs high bounce 56* or 54*. I never elaborated on this before but I have done the actual comparison in hitting different shots out of different lies with a 5* bounce 60 (Mizuno MP-R) and a 12* bounce 60 (Cleveland CG10), and there is no doubt to me that all shots in all lies were easier with the lower bounce wedge. But it only mattered every once and a while since you can hit most shots well (or equally as bad) with either club. If you still think the bludgeoning tool is better, that's great if it helps psychologically, but honestly there is no science that supports that. And there is no point arguing that this physics is wrong unless you actually try a direct comparison. Over time and with enough repetition, the statistics of the detriments of higher bounce (again...ALL OTHER THINGS EQUAL) will eventually come through.

 

And for the record for anyone reading this, in NONE of this post or ANY other of my post have I stated anyone is playing the wrong club. I'm just relaying the basic physics.

 

To build confidence in a carry over water shot, I will picture it *without water*.

 

That said, what if I picture my ball in a creek, 1" under water? I definitely will want my lowest bounce, higher lofted wedge. Sometimes, common sense comes in mysterious ways. :cheesy:

 

I know, I'm weird in my way of thinking outside the box. :swoon: :taunt:

 

LOL, you know what is the most ironic thing about those so obsessed with high bounce? The LOFT is at a greater degree than the bounce itself, so the "theory" about digging or not digging from bounce MUST also apply to the loft! A stronger LOFTED club will ALWAYS be better for not "digging" compared to a weaker lofted club! Based on the same high bounce "theory", a stronger lofted club will also get "deflected" when the leading edge hits the ground. So based on that logic, we should never use weaker lofted clubs because they are MORE prone to digging than the bounce itself!

 

The ground, sand, grass, or whatever substrate will almost always give way to the clubhead. It is next to impossible for it to reroute the path of the clubhead (and arms and hands and shaft) during the distance and time of concern where bounce is supposed to "matter".

 

"There is only one way to avoid criticism: do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing."

- Aristotle

[mdgboxx]

Understanding the physics of golf has made MY journey much, much more enjoyable. In fact it has become something inseparable from it. I have a much clearer path on what equipment I play and what I need to change in my swing. It has enhanced my romance with the game. And every time I have to explain it, my understanding becomes a little more refined and polished, which further enhances my romance and is also why I like discussing it so much. And yes, it is completely non-negotiable. "It is what it is..."

 

I work with some highly experienced HVAC techs. LOL and some don't like an engineer messing around with their equipment, so I stay out of their way unless they need my help. I really like working with and learning from the experienced guys too. They are stubborn at times but are also a wealth of information. And being on the same page about the physics and chemistry of an issue is the ultimate goal of every troubleshooting study. Every now and then we take bets about the right solution to a problem, and it is all in good fun since we care more about the science being right in the end. Winning the bet is always secondary.

 

Haha!

 

There HAS to be a simple reason why I have something in common with your HVAC techs.

 

The only way to get along with a competent/experienced "working tech" is to gain his confidence/trust.

 

How do we reach that goal, you ask?

 

Eventually, you will have to privately discredit a fellow engineer. Whenever the quotes/plans/conceptions/installations are not respected "to the letter", and supervision is left to a skimpy bureaucrat, you're asking for trouble.

 

It's simple enough to evaluate the size of any system. Unsupervised contractors will deliberately ignore valid access for routine maintenance, and repairs or upgrade.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but wasn't the Bay of Mexico oil spill disaster traced back to a bureaucrat who made the decision to omit the installation of a safety valve, so he could save 4 1/2 hrs in cost?

 

Last I heard, he wasn't put on death row for High Treason.

 

How many car mechanics do you know that will willfully promote one brand over all others?

 

Absolutely an engineer needs to earn the respect and trust of experienced techs! That is something I learned early in my career. If an engineer does not get along well with techs, then he better be VERY good and keep tabs on everything, which is next to impossible. So the better tact is to work WITH the techs as a team, and also I feel an engineer needs to "walk a mile" in the techs shoes. The LAST thing an engineer should do is alienate himself from the experienced techs. He can easily, as you say, be "discredited" for nearly anything that may have been missed in the design and construction of a system.

 

I think the ultimate goal in the design of a system is to keep the priority for operations and maintenance at the highest level. Unfortunately there is a mentality in construction and design to keep the project cost low, which makes the later operational expenses high. I don't think this is a good mentality and I often get frustrated with budget cutting project managers. Obviously there needs to be a balance, but if the ultimate goal is TOTAL cost of ownership, then one should not cut corners in the design just to save a little money that will end up costing MORE to address later. And any project team that I am on, I want and demand, if possible, that there be a senior experienced tech involved in the design so that things like easy access and maintenance are incorporated. Also in my experience, the best design engineers are the ones that have had operations experience.

 

LOL I have seen many project managers get promoted for low budget projects and then they move on but yet years later the engineers and techs are fixing things that weren't funded and built during the original project.

 

THAT! (BOLD)

 

I (we) call them bureaucrats (yingyingneers, no yang. lol) :bigwhack: and you must refer to them as Project Managers...Protocol, I get it. LMAO :good:

 

LMAO you must have been screwed more than a few times with poorly designed systems for that kind of animosity towards bureaucrats. If I'm getting screwed over in a design due to cost cutting, I just make sure my boss and the "project manager" know it! I document it in an email and then I save that email in my archives. "So you are asking me why that safety valve was removed in the design? Well, Mr. Investigator, let's just look at this old email where it was in the design and I requested that it stay in the design. You may need to get the answer from my boss and the project manager at the time." I still may get fired for the design, 'cause $hit rolls downhill, but at least I will sleep at night knowing I tried to do the right thing.

 

And LOL another way to screw over an engineer is to request that they write the procedure for fixing an issue or for doing maintenance. Most will NEVER think of all the steps that a tech actually has to perform and so if it goes wrong based on following the procedure verbatim, you can always blame the engineer for it. The way that I get around it is to make the tech and I "dry run" the procedure first, where we both go out in the field and perform the procedure without actually doing it and moving valves and such. Then we edit the procedure TOGETHER. This way the tech is just as responsible for it!

 

 

IMHO, the best initiative to getting it right, is to go on a dry run with a tech sporting horse blinders, and yourself with an open mind.

 

I have never seen it done in 35+ years, and being retired, I don't even expect to hear anything about it on the Daily News. (Until shyite rolls downhill)

[DeNinny]

Absolutely an engineer needs to earn the respect and trust of experienced techs! That is something I learned early in my career. If an engineer does not get along well with techs, then he better be VERY good and keep tabs on everything, which is next to impossible. So the better tact is to work WITH the techs as a team, and also I feel an engineer needs to "walk a mile" in the techs shoes. The LAST thing an engineer should do is alienate himself from the experienced techs. He can easily, as you say, be "discredited" for nearly anything that may have been missed in the design and construction of a system.

 

I think the ultimate goal in the design of a system is to keep the priority for operations and maintenance at the highest level. Unfortunately there is a mentality in construction and design to keep the project cost low, which makes the later operational expenses high. I don't think this is a good mentality and I often get frustrated with budget cutting project managers. Obviously there needs to be a balance, but if the ultimate goal is TOTAL cost of ownership, then one should not cut corners in the design just to save a little money that will end up costing MORE to address later. And any project team that I am on, I want and demand, if possible, that there be a senior experienced tech involved in the design so that things like easy access and maintenance are incorporated. Also in my experience, the best design engineers are the ones that have had operations experience.

 

LOL I have seen many project managers get promoted for low budget projects and then they move on but yet years later the engineers and techs are fixing things that weren't funded and built during the original project.

 

THAT! (BOLD)

 

I (we) call them bureaucrats (yingyingneers, no yang. lol) :bigwhack: and you must refer to them as Project Managers...Protocol, I get it. LMAO :good:

 

LMAO you must have been screwed more than a few times with poorly designed systems for that kind of animosity towards bureaucrats. If I'm getting screwed over in a design due to cost cutting, I just make sure my boss and the "project manager" know it! I document it in an email and then I save that email in my archives. "So you are asking me why that safety valve was removed in the design? Well, Mr. Investigator, let's just look at this old email where it was in the design and I requested that it stay in the design. You may need to get the answer from my boss and the project manager at the time." I still may get fired for the design, 'cause $hit rolls downhill, but at least I will sleep at night knowing I tried to do the right thing.

 

And LOL another way to screw over an engineer is to request that they write the procedure for fixing an issue or for doing maintenance. Most will NEVER think of all the steps that a tech actually has to perform and so if it goes wrong based on following the procedure verbatim, you can always blame the engineer for it. The way that I get around it is to make the tech and I "dry run" the procedure first, where we both go out in the field and perform the procedure without actually doing it and moving valves and such. Then we edit the procedure TOGETHER. This way the tech is just as responsible for it!

 

 

IMHO, the best initiative to getting it right, is to go on a dry run with a tech sporting horse blinders, and yourself with an open mind.

 

I have never seen it done in 35+ years, and being retired, I don't even expect to hear anything about it on the Daily News. (Until shyite rolls downhill)

 

LOL I consider a procedure a LIVING document. Meaning it is always growing and changing. It gets to be "right" after doing it about 100 times and then editing it after each time. And by that time you don't need a procedure anymore.

 

The best initiative to getting a job done right is to put the best tech(s) on the job and have the procedure, written as you prescribed above, as an "aid" for that tech.

 

LOL you are so jaded. 35+ years to get that way makes perfect sense!

[painter]

Just checked in

Slowly catching up

 

Glad no one’s head exploded

 

Stu hope you did not get too wet down your way.

 

Hope your church had some good insurance on the equipment

 

Happy BD Hammy! Nice you got out!

 

Happy BD to Mrs. 61

 

May was a good month

 

My Mrs. 61 just went to 62

 

When I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to club heads exploding. Years ago when I worked at a course, we had a strange phenomenon occur - quite a few people bringing in Taylormade iron heads that had flown off their shafts. Of course, there were always wood heads splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces. I seem to remember finding pieces of black Walter Hagen woods with some regularity.

 

Nice avatar painter... I remember seeing guitars splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces after seeing the Who play years ago :) welcome...

 

Thanks for the welcome - to all. The avatar is a stock photo of a Strat similar to the one I made (and painted) with all Fender parts. It's a satisfying thing to do, but I can't seem to hit a golf ball very far with it???

[Qqq123xx]

Just checked in

Slowly catching up

 

Glad no one’s head exploded

 

Stu hope you did not get too wet down your way.

 

Hope your church had some good insurance on the equipment

 

Happy BD Hammy! Nice you got out!

 

Happy BD to Mrs. 61

 

May was a good month

 

My Mrs. 61 just went to 62

 

When I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to club heads exploding. Years ago when I worked at a course, we had a strange phenomenon occur - quite a few people bringing in Taylormade iron heads that had flown off their shafts. Of course, there were always wood heads splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces. I seem to remember finding pieces of black Walter Hagen woods with some regularity.

 

Nice avatar painter... I remember seeing guitars splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces after seeing the Who play years ago :) welcome...

 

Thanks for the welcome - to all. The avatar is a stock photo of a Strat similar to the one I made (and painted) with all Fender parts. It's a satisfying thing to do, but I can't seem to hit a golf ball very far with it???

New thread started 'Clubhouse Grille.' Do drop in. Same section as this one 19th Hole Off Topic.

[Matt J]

True Confession: I think starting another thread to dictate the content is sophomoric. The internet equivalent of taking your ball and going home.

 

This is our thread and we can work through it.

 

Unlike Reason, I never felt there were any Halcyon Days of confessions. I've enjoyed reading a lot of your posts everyday, start to finish.

 

The thread can live or die, but I'll be here.

 

A little share: (confession if you will) there was a group of dew dusters at the 7 am slot yesterday that didn't want me to join up with them. They had one of their wives with them that is a "beginner" and are always very pace conscious (too much for me). So, I went out in front of them, playing PD style, me and my thoughts. I moved back to the 6900 box and made up a game to play with myself (it's okay you can laugh at that, a man playing with himself on a golf course).

 

So, the game went, play your first ball, but if you want to re-hit a ball you can, but you have to play both balls in and average the scores. Two balls per hole max. Turned into a pretty good game. I shot a 38 on the front, then had breakfast, then went back out. Moved up 1,100 yards and then shot a 39, haha. Thought 27 holes would be a blast, but it got into the mid-nineties by the 3rd nine and I was pushing the cart and started dragging arse. Only one birdie in 27 holes, but also recorded my 3rd eagle in my life :)

[DeNinny]

True Confession: I think starting another thread to dictate the content is sophomoric. The internet equivalent of taking your ball and going home.

 

This is our thread and we can work through it.

 

Unlike Reason, I never felt there were any Halcyon Days of confessions. I've enjoyed reading a lot of your posts everyday, start to finish.

 

The thread can live or die, but I'll be here.

 

A little share: (confession if you will) there was a group of dew dusters at the 7 am slot yesterday that didn't want me to join up with them. They had one of their wives with them that is a "beginner" and are always very pace conscious (too much for me). So, I went out in front of them, playing PD style, me and my thoughts. I moved back to the 6900 box and made up a game to play with myself (it's okay you can laugh at that, a man playing with himself on a golf course).

 

So, the game went, play your first ball, but if you want to re-hit a ball you can, but you have to play both balls in and average the scores. Two balls per hole max. Turned into a pretty good game. I shot a 38 on the front, then had breakfast, then went back out. Moved up 1,100 yards and then shot a 39, haha. Thought 27 holes would be a blast, but it got into the mid-nineties by the 3rd nine and I was pushing the cart and started dragging arse. Only one birdie in 27 holes, but also recorded my 3rd eagle in my life :)

 

Matt J, I am in full agreement that no confessor should ever have to censor or tailor their posts for the needs of another. I have always ran on the assumption that we have ALWAYS respected each other and that NOBODY means anybody any disrespect whatsoever. I can say for certain that I have never meant anybody any disrespect. So to me if somebody is bothered by another confessors content, they should just leave it alone or better yet, SEEK TO UNDERSTAND the intent of the poster that somehow offended them. If we know that no disrespect was meant, then it is a simple miscommunication. Plus the whole point to me was to speak our minds about whatever we wanted.

 

But I do recognize that there are some that are VERY sensitive to reading any amount of drama or animosity and also there are some that simply can't just skip over something that they didn't like to read. There are MANY WRXers like this, so I'm not going to get bent out of shape about it and I respect that viewpoint since I respect all my fellow confessors. Plus, I can get all technical in here and then just banter all day long over in the Grille. I get the best of both worlds with two threads!

 

So I am here with you. I don't plan on going anywhere unless we don't have things in common to discuss anymore. Plus, I have thoroughly and honestly enjoyed the nature and tone of our own 1:1 bounce discussion amidst all the rest of them. You have proposed rational counter points to me and we discussed it back and forth no different than I would with another engineer or scientist. Also, you have had my back recently and openly supported me when I was suspended a while back, so I consider you a true friend and I will never forget any of this.

 

So please, post away and I will be here lurking if not also responding. And LMAO I would love to finally convince you that what I'm saying about bounce is 100% true. LOL I double-dog dare you to take the 12 question quiz about bounce that was my first post in this thread. Or we can talk about whatever else.

 

And dude, CONGRATS on that eagle!!! I'm at three total too! All were at my home course on 3 different par 5s.

[Palauan Hammer]

Nice Eagle Mattskee!

 

 

I don't always post because my days are the EXACT same, I do the same things every, single, day. 600+ days and counting (799 technically) so I don't always have anything new to talk about. I basically have no life. LOL geez that was depressing hahaha

[DeNinny]

Get zen on it, Master Palauan Hammer. Keep honing your chi. This is what will make you successful when you are 5 strokes back on Sunday. That will feel like nothing compared to what you are going through right now. 800 days is insane.

[BIG STU]

Just checked in

Slowly catching up

 

Glad no one’s head exploded

 

Stu hope you did not get too wet down your way.

 

Hope your church had some good insurance on the equipment

 

Happy BD Hammy! Nice you got out!

 

Happy BD to Mrs. 61

 

May was a good month

 

My Mrs. 61 just went to 62

 

When I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to club heads exploding. Years ago when I worked at a course, we had a strange phenomenon occur - quite a few people bringing in Taylormade iron heads that had flown off their shafts. Of course, there were always wood heads splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces. I seem to remember finding pieces of black Walter Hagen woods with some regularity.

 

It was at our 2006 annual Golf Show. Nike introduced the New Square driver. They were pulled within the first half hour. More than half a dozen heads had flown off into the nets.

LOL man the Square Nike drivers that brought back some memories. Remember all the hype before they were avaible ? Man we had the clone heads out of California before Nike released the real ones. Somehow my partner got the Carolina's rights to build and distribute them. We built a bunch and sold them before Nike released theirs. Talk about noisy! those clones were worse than the real ones. Had a very pronounced TINK loud as a .38 going off! What a joke the clones were and the sad part was the real Nike ones were not much better. IMHO the ugliest clubs since the Cleveland VAS. Thanks for the laugh

[thug the bunny]

Just checked in

Slowly catching up

 

Glad no one’s head exploded

 

Stu hope you did not get too wet down your way.

 

Hope your church had some good insurance on the equipment

 

Happy BD Hammy! Nice you got out!

 

Happy BD to Mrs. 61

 

May was a good month

 

My Mrs. 61 just went to 62

 

When I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to club heads exploding. Years ago when I worked at a course, we had a strange phenomenon occur - quite a few people bringing in Taylormade iron heads that had flown off their shafts. Of course, there were always wood heads splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces. I seem to remember finding pieces of black Walter Hagen woods with some regularity.

 

Nice avatar painter... I remember seeing guitars splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces after seeing the Who play years ago :) welcome...

 

Thanks for the welcome - to all. The avatar is a stock photo of a Strat similar to the one I made (and painted) with all Fender parts. It's a satisfying thing to do, but I can't seem to hit a golf ball very far with it???

 

I think you should string it with .12s, this gives a greater COR. And since Strats have thinner necks, I would recommend a slightly weaker grip. You should be striping your Strat in no time.

[BIG STU]

Ironically I had an actual conversation with real golfers about bounce the other day. A couple of guys I play with had been unhappy with their lob wedges and bought new ones. To make a long story short, they decided to run 10 degree bounce in their 60's because they figured that would make them about the equivalent to where the bounce should be if it "ran with the set." Seemed like reasonable logic.

 

Ninja, I think some of the dissension comes from the fact that you so adamantly pronounce that your understanding of the science is "correct." I, for one, enjoy your passion for the journey and empathize with feeling like you're correct and have put the issue to rest, but I think a lot of us aren't so sure.

 

I don't honestly see how you can think bounce has no effect on turf interaction. Engineers of clubs have been making lower bounce in long irons and graduating it into the shorter clubs for a lot of years. Although I know you feel like you have all pertinent information regarding the physics of it, there's something convincing about the consistency with which bounce has been addressed by club designers for many years.

 

As for whether or not we all need wedges with specific bounce for different course conditions, I admit my ignorance, and have been really focusing on what I feel is the difference between my higher and lower bounce wedges, but have not come to any concrete conclusions other than the commonly held anecdotal belief that a higher bounce wants to skim along the surface and a lower bounce wants to dig. At some point, as I think PD is trying to express, we do have to agree to disagree. You may feel that your beliefs on the issue are supported by physics, but I think you have to respect that some other people may believe that your model is incomplete and inconsistent with their experience.

 

Although there may be plenty more golf to discuss, if we can't find a way to respectfully and enjoyably communicate about our passion for this game then the threads have run their course. I'm not pulling the plug, but it seems PD is at that point. I for one will miss him greatly and hope that isn't the case.

Now I have held these facts all along. There is a difference between static (set) bounce and effective bounce. Now effective bounce can vary within the exact same club between different players. A lot depends on a player's angle of attack. Personally my 60* is about 8* of static bounce stock but I modified the basic design with a Scratch type EGG grind. In other words I lowered the leading edge to about .200 off the ground static. It works for me because I use a lot of hand action on flop and sand shots. Now just because it works for me does not mean it works for everyone. Actually my 56* is about 12* static bounce. I hit different shots with those two different wedges. It is not nescessarly in regard to distance but it is in regard to what I need the wedge to do. All this comes from years of actual practice in both hitting shots and experimenting with different wedges and grinds etc. Ralph Maltby's video on "All About Wedges" tells a lot and explains some of what I was trying to explain here. Actually in person I can look at a person playing a few different shots and pretty much figure out what they generally need as far as bounce. No wedge can do it all in reality but with practice and knowledge you can do a lot with the tools you work with. Most players would dig to China with my 60 because of the lower leading edge and on certain shots I will chunk it too that is why then I would use the higher bounce 56 with the face more open to deloft it. In a nutshell no one bounce will work for all that is why there is so many grind and bounce options out there

[BIG STU]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

Man glad to see you are all right. I have not been on here too much been working . Got an PM the other night and thought this thread had 'died out". But I see it is still active

[Matt J]

I'm convinced BIG STU has forgot more about golf than I'll ever know.

 

I always had decent touch in any sport and I feel pretty comfortable opening a wedge up and flipping at it hard, but damn if that shot doesn't go wrong as much as it goes right.

 

I'm always confident over it, but I probably shouldn't be.

 

DeNinjitsu, I'm jealous of your conviction concerning the bounce dilemma. You've said repeatedly how you hit shots equally well with a low bounce wedge and I wish I could say the same. I think you have a lot of talent and a belief in low bounce wedges that carries you through. I wish I wasn't convinced of the voodoo of bounce, but when the lie is a little dicey or I have some green to work with from the sand I'm not trying to spin the ball. Just throw it up in the vicinity, hit a putt, and get the hell out of there.

 

Thanks for the congrats on the eagle. It won me 4 bucks in the game. Too bad that's all I won and the buy in was 10. Haha.

 

Brohammerstein, keep on keeping on. You have the most astute observations for a guy that can't go to the golf course. You're like a monk storing up golf power!

[mdgboxx]

guys I have been gone for a couple.weeks....seems my shoulder injury needing to be MRI'd was a very,very large blessing ....

they found an Aneurysm in the Aorta...it was three times the size of normal....ready to rupture.....emergency surgery...stints in place...

and i have rosy color in my old cheeks from something other than a glass of wine ! Have not read all of what has and is transpiring,but i want everyone to know that one of my sillier thoughts as i was in the pre-op...was that i might not get to play a round with you guys....Turns out that the guy running this

ant farm called Earth,is letting me stay here a while longer.

I will get caught up....but forgive me as i tend to spend more time looking at sunrises and sunsets....They arer truly beautiful...and priceless.

It is good to be back with you guys...I mean that .

Man glad to see you are all right. I have not been on here too much been working . Got an PM the other night and thought this thread had 'died out". But I see it is still active

 

PM, that's how I learned about a new extension being added to the Old House Foundations. I already stated in the new room that I have no quirk whatsoever commuting back and forth. It's only a click away.

[Matt J]

Just made a late night Ebay purchase on a set of Steelfiber pulls. Probably set them into my MP-60 heads for now. Arthritis be damned. I've gotta hit balls to get all these swing changes grooved :)

 

Went with a cheap set of 80 gram pulls in stiff flex. I'll be able to soft step the 5i shaft into my 6 and use the extra wedge shaft in my 52 degree. My 56 already has a S200 shaft and the Vokey 60 has some kind of Titleist wedge flex, so there should be reasonable continuity. Might not work perfectly but it's a cheap experiment into a set of practice sticks that won't kill my elbow. Sounds good in theory :)

[mdgboxx]

Just made a late night Ebay purchase on a set of Steelfiber pulls. Probably set them into my MP-60 heads for now. Arthritis be damned. I've gotta hit balls to get all these swing changes grooved :)

 

Went with a cheap set of 80 gram pulls in stiff flex. I'll be able to soft step the 5i shaft into my 6 and use the extra wedge shaft in my 52 degree. My 56 already has a S200 shaft and the Vokey 60 has some kind of Titleist wedge flex, so there should be reasonable continuity. Might not work perfectly but it's a cheap experiment into a set of practice sticks that won't kill my elbow. Sounds good in theory :)

 

If it already looks good on paper, you won't have to be so cautious in practice.....IMHO.

 

Stress will kill the mood, every single time. As someone once said to me: "Anything mechanical, give it a good bash"! :cheesy:

[Palauan Hammer]

Just made a late night Ebay purchase on a set of Steelfiber pulls. Probably set them into my MP-60 heads for now. Arthritis be damned. I've gotta hit balls to get all these swing changes grooved :)

 

Went with a cheap set of 80 gram pulls in stiff flex. I'll be able to soft step the 5i shaft into my 6 and use the extra wedge shaft in my 52 degree. My 56 already has a S200 shaft and the Vokey 60 has some kind of Titleist wedge flex, so there should be reasonable continuity. Might not work perfectly but it's a cheap experiment into a set of practice sticks that won't kill my elbow. Sounds good in theory :)

 

Love to hear how it goes, and thanks for the kind words!

 

 

Ninja, thanks mang!!

 

I lose my mental strength sometimes. I'll never give up though. At least I'm not rotting in jail right LOL I'll keep using this to further strengthen my mind, and grow my belief. One day I'll be back out there working my tail off!

[DeNinny]

Just checked in

Slowly catching up

 

Glad no one’s head exploded

 

Stu hope you did not get too wet down your way.

 

Hope your church had some good insurance on the equipment

 

Happy BD Hammy! Nice you got out!

 

Happy BD to Mrs. 61

 

May was a good month

 

My Mrs. 61 just went to 62

 

When I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to club heads exploding. Years ago when I worked at a course, we had a strange phenomenon occur - quite a few people bringing in Taylormade iron heads that had flown off their shafts. Of course, there were always wood heads splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces. I seem to remember finding pieces of black Walter Hagen woods with some regularity.

 

It was at our 2006 annual Golf Show. Nike introduced the New Square driver. They were pulled within the first half hour. More than half a dozen heads had flown off into the nets.

LOL man the Square Nike drivers that brought back some memories. Remember all the hype before they were avaible ? Man we had the clone heads out of California before Nike released the real ones. Somehow my partner got the Carolina's rights to build and distribute them. We built a bunch and sold them before Nike released theirs. Talk about noisy! those clones were worse than the real ones. Had a very pronounced TINK loud as a .38 going off! What a joke the clones were and the sad part was the real Nike ones were not much better. IMHO the ugliest clubs since the Cleveland VAS. Thanks for the laugh

 

I used to call that FUGLY Sumo driver a "toaster on a stick". That was one loud and obnoxious driver.

[mdgboxx]

Just checked in

Slowly catching up

 

Glad no one’s head exploded

 

Stu hope you did not get too wet down your way.

 

Hope your church had some good insurance on the equipment

 

Happy BD Hammy! Nice you got out!

 

Happy BD to Mrs. 61

 

May was a good month

 

My Mrs. 61 just went to 62

 

When I saw the thread title, I thought it referred to club heads exploding. Years ago when I worked at a course, we had a strange phenomenon occur - quite a few people bringing in Taylormade iron heads that had flown off their shafts. Of course, there were always wood heads splitting, cracking, and breaking into pieces. I seem to remember finding pieces of black Walter Hagen woods with some regularity.

 

It was at our 2006 annual Golf Show. Nike introduced the New Square driver. They were pulled within the first half hour. More than half a dozen heads had flown off into the nets.

LOL man the Square Nike drivers that brought back some memories. Remember all the hype before they were avaible ? Man we had the clone heads out of California before Nike released the real ones. Somehow my partner got the Carolina's rights to build and distribute them. We built a bunch and sold them before Nike released theirs. Talk about noisy! those clones were worse than the real ones. Had a very pronounced TINK loud as a .38 going off! What a joke the clones were and the sad part was the real Nike ones were not much better. IMHO the ugliest clubs since the Cleveland VAS. Thanks for the laugh

 

I used to call that FUGLY Sumo driver a "toaster on a stick". That was one loud and obnoxious driver.

 

Still TOOLed. I probably have to wait another 12 hours, and it's 1:30 PM.

 

It seems that a lot of new drivers in that period in time were obnoxiously loud. Which is why I left the Golf Show with a Srixon W-506. It was also the last time Srixon was ever represented at a Golf Show in Canada.

 

Ping and Titleist were a no show.

[DeNinny]

It was at our 2006 annual Golf Show. Nike introduced the New Square driver. They were pulled within the first half hour. More than half a dozen heads had flown off into the nets.

LOL man the Square Nike drivers that brought back some memories. Remember all the hype before they were avaible ? Man we had the clone heads out of California before Nike released the real ones. Somehow my partner got the Carolina's rights to build and distribute them. We built a bunch and sold them before Nike released theirs. Talk about noisy! those clones were worse than the real ones. Had a very pronounced TINK loud as a .38 going off! What a joke the clones were and the sad part was the real Nike ones were not much better. IMHO the ugliest clubs since the Cleveland VAS. Thanks for the laugh

 

I used to call that FUGLY Sumo driver a "toaster on a stick". That was one loud and obnoxious driver.

 

Still TOOLed. I probably have to wait another 12 hours, and it's 1:30 PM.

 

It seems that a lot of new drivers in that period in time were obnoxiously loud. Which is why I left the Golf Show with a Srixon W-506. It was also the last time Srixon was ever represented at a Golf Show in Canada.

 

Ping and Titleist were a no show.

 

Yeah I have a TEE XLD from that era with a FUGLY pentagon shaped head. It isn't *quite* as loud as a Sumo but it is still loud and obnoxious. I hit it OK but the sound is just bad.

 

During that time I think(?) the manufacturers hollowed out the insides of a lot of those drivers to (needlessly) maximize that MOI or maybe to minimize materials, and that made the head an 'echo chamber'. A loud and obnoxious one at that.

[BIG STU]

I'm convinced BIG STU has forgot more about golf than I'll ever know.

 

I always had decent touch in any sport and I feel pretty comfortable opening a wedge up and flipping at it hard, but damn if that shot doesn't go wrong as much as it goes right.

 

I'm always confident over it, but I probably shouldn't be.

 

DeNinjitsu, I'm jealous of your conviction concerning the bounce dilemma. You've said repeatedly how you hit shots equally well with a low bounce wedge and I wish I could say the same. I think you have a lot of talent and a belief in low bounce wedges that carries you through. I wish I wasn't convinced of the voodoo of bounce, but when the lie is a little dicey or I have some green to work with from the sand I'm not trying to spin the ball. Just throw it up in the vicinity, hit a putt, and get the hell out of there.

 

Thanks for the congrats on the eagle. It won me 4 bucks in the game. Too bad that's all I won and the buy in was 10. Haha.

 

Brohammerstein, keep on keeping on. You have the most astute observations for a guy that can't go to the golf course. You're like a monk storing up golf power!

Thanks man I do not know it all but remember I have been around the game on and off all my life. I honed my wedge skills on that little par 3 course I grew up on. There is no telling how many rounds I played on it over the years and how many balls I have hit with wedges. On the weekends when the big course was crowded the par 3 usually was not. The 7th hole was right beside our house and I hit countless shots from everywhere around that green everything imaginable. I also copied everything the old gamblers did including trick shots off the concrete. Also on the weekends I would be hiding and would play that 7 th hole and cross over to the 3rd hole and play it around to 7 again. If I had to work I would hit shots off the grass or gravel with wedges through the cart barn or over it. Had quite a few old wedges in different locations. I just love hitting wedges. LOL one time after I was grown and had came back from Florida I got in a big money match (of course I had backers) We were playing the ball down period. The 9th hole on the reg course was a Par 5 down the hill into a bottom. I actually hit my 1 iron too far into the bottom where it was hard to get it over the hill without killing it into the hill. I pulled my little Hogan 5 wood opened it up some figured I could hit it within wedge distance in front of the green . I scorched it and it went over the green probably the best 5 wood I ever hit period. It rolled into the club house. Remember we were playing strictly down. My old man was working and he saw the markings on the ball and knew whose ball it was. He asked where I hit it from I told him where and what I hit and his reply was you are an idiot. Well there was a crowd and the old man was flapping that yap of his. Now I had to hit this ball off of the concrete porch over a split rail fence and had probably 20 paces of green to work with. He said ok MR Magician bet you don't get that up and down. I told him you are on for $100. I hit it over the fence into the leather. I told him pay me! He did not have a clue that I had hit that shot probably 100 times when I used to work late and lock up shop. Ticked him off but he paid up had to there were too many of his cronies laughing. Yep I love wedges and even now I do not practice or play as much as I used to but still I would say 85 to 90% of my time practicing is with the wedges and putter.My wedges and putter in my younger days was the only reason I was competitive. I was long but crooked off the tee but deadly from 120 in.

[mdgboxx]

It was at our 2006 annual Golf Show. Nike introduced the New Square driver. They were pulled within the first half hour. More than half a dozen heads had flown off into the nets.

LOL man the Square Nike drivers that brought back some memories. Remember all the hype before they were avaible ? Man we had the clone heads out of California before Nike released the real ones. Somehow my partner got the Carolina's rights to build and distribute them. We built a bunch and sold them before Nike released theirs. Talk about noisy! those clones were worse than the real ones. Had a very pronounced TINK loud as a .38 going off! What a joke the clones were and the sad part was the real Nike ones were not much better. IMHO the ugliest clubs since the Cleveland VAS. Thanks for the laugh

 

I used to call that FUGLY Sumo driver a "toaster on a stick". That was one loud and obnoxious driver.

 

Still TOOLed. I probably have to wait another 12 hours, and it's 1:30 PM.

 

It seems that a lot of new drivers in that period in time were obnoxiously loud. Which is why I left the Golf Show with a Srixon W-506. It was also the last time Srixon was ever represented at a Golf Show in Canada.

 

Ping and Titleist were a no show.

 

Yeah I have a TEE XLD from that era with a FUGLY pentagon shaped head. It isn't *quite* as loud as a Sumo but it is still loud and obnoxious. I hit it OK but the sound is just bad.

 

During that time I think(?) the manufacturers hollowed out the insides of a lot of those drivers to (needlessly) maximize that MOI or maybe to minimize materials, and that made the head an 'echo chamber'. A loud and obnoxious one at that.

 

TOOLed again! Oh well, I got 1/2 dozen back, now they're gone. lol

 

The W-506 was the first, soccer ball size, driver I ever hit at 450 cc. Over three days of trial tests, with everything on site, it turned out to be the only one that would send the ball into the net, have it drop and return to me in a straight line. (i.e., very little side spin, if any)

 

I have yet to see Tour Edge at a Golf Show in my area.

[DeNinny]

DeNinjitsu, I'm jealous of your conviction concerning the bounce dilemma. You've said repeatedly how you hit shots equally well with a low bounce wedge and I wish I could say the same. I think you have a lot of talent and a belief in low bounce wedges that carries you through. I wish I wasn't convinced of the voodoo of bounce, but when the lie is a little dicey or I have some green to work with from the sand I'm not trying to spin the ball. Just throw it up in the vicinity, hit a putt, and get the hell out of there.

 

Thanks for the congrats on the eagle. It won me 4 bucks in the game. Too bad that's all I won and the buy in was 10. Haha.

...

 

Au contraire, my Bro-frere. I play low bounce wedges because I LACK the talent to hit the higher bounce wedges under the same conditions! It's my 'belief' based on the science! And in my professional opinion, I think it is you that has the talent when you talk about shots where you 'use the bounce' to help. You gotta have skillz to play the higher bounce wedges.

 

LOL you have maybe 0.01% less conviction than I do on the bounce 'dilemma'. I LOVE IT!

[Reasonability]

Rode the dingy to open a potential can or two of worms. Could be these two subjects find their way into deeper discussion and it could be no one cares to touch either with a ten foot pole. We shall soon know, won't we?

 

First -

 

Sorry for asking you to read and scroll - but the heart and soul of my first can of worms is a chart included in the following about shaft length.

 

http://www.golfalot....des/shafts.aspx

 

I suppose it would've been easier to just post the chart but this way you can see what I saw and where this came from. Now...the old Ping fitting charts are not new. They have always relied on this wrist-to-floor bit from day one. And the chart in this article is no big revelation either to many who have been around their own game and spent much time dabbling with fittings.

 

The question is... what say you fellas about how close this chart comes to NAILING it for the length of your 5 iron?????

 

The next can of worms is swing related - coming up next as I need a moment to write it up.

 

All answers to this shaft length biz is fair game btw - All I'm asking is if the sticks you game are dead on with this chart and do such charts really matter (or not)? Fire at will.

[Reasonability]

Next possible deep dive.

 

If you look at a down the line swing of your favorite golfer - there is a really really good chance that what you're going to see at the top is that his lead arm and shaft are AT THAT POINT - laying on the same plane. The trail elbow will be under the shaft and the trail forearm will be almost 90* to the shaft. (we are looking down-the-line here).

 

Now - there's a better than even chance that by the time the club is moving through the bottom half of the downswing that shaft suddenly moves right through the line of the TRAIL forearm - and does so BEFORE the strike.

 

I have an opinion here - and anyone caring or wanting to "go there" is welcome to open this can of "whoop-arse" up with me.

 

Ready?

 

It's entirely possible and in many cases its LIKELY that shaft did NOT drop down or lay down at all to suddenly start flying through the trail side forearm and in fact is still on the same plane as the lead arm.

 

Does anyone dispute that it LOOKS on camera to have fallen on a flatter plane when in fact - it DID not?

 

Does anyone care (lol) HOW what I'm saying is even possible?

 

This topic reminds me of lighting the Estes model rocket. If that little cylindrical rocket motor was a dude - no launch. But - if she lit...ZOOM she went.

 

Summing it up - The shaft does NOT have to lay down on a flatter plane to fly through the trail forearm by any gravity fall or purposeful mechanism that somehow changed planes from down-the-line... and in fact is basically STILL on the same plane as it was at the top when it lined up with the LEAD forearm -- Yes or No?

 

Hint. Think three dimensionally as you look at that 2D view.

[Reasonability]

 

Pause at 1:19 and again at 1:21.

 

Did his shaft change planes or stay on the same plane down from the top. If the latter - why is it now flying through the trail forearm?

 

You can go find this on almost any great ball striker - and you're going to see this apparent look of the shaft changing from the lead arm plane to the trail arm. There's a good chance you do it yourself.

 

HOW is this possible?

 

And btw - on the other side of this one lays the whole bull shizzle about shaft lean - setup - conflicting info ranging from swing in-to-out, swing it to the left (for righties) - handle dragging - over-the-top flatter planes, steeper planes, single plane swings, two-plane swings, casting....

 

Every single bit of all that stuff is nested right here inside of this one single question!

[DeNinny]

Next possible deep dive.

 

That was a good shaft article, BTW. I don't have much comment on the 5i length selector. I'm fine with standard length irons so I don't worry about any length changes.

 

As to this dive, as usual there is a lot of what you are stating that aligns with the ideal physics.

 

If you look at a down the line swing of your favorite golfer - there is a really really good chance that what you're going to see at the top is that his lead arm and shaft are AT THAT POINT - laying on the same plane. The trail elbow will be under the shaft and the trail forearm will be almost 90* to the shaft. (we are looking down-the-line here).

 

This is a low MOI swing position. By bending the trail arm 90 degrees, the club is set close to the body and also such that it will drag directly behind the hands and the lead arm as they rotate down on a plane where the shaft will point just below the ball. In this position, the golfer is poised to turn as fast as possible with the least amount of energy since the club will drag directly behind the hands and also the weight of the club is set close to the body. That 90 degree trail elbow set is key to establishing this position. It also puts the clubface in the plane of the swing as a result of that 90 degree hinge.

 

Now - there's a better than even chance that by the time the club is moving through the bottom half of the downswing that shaft suddenly moves right through the line of the TRAIL forearm - and does so BEFORE the strike.

 

By the physics of the geometry and the ideal way to unhinge all the arm hinges of the swing under the force of centrifugal motion, it is inevitable that the trail forearm will be in the same plane of the shaft (in relation to the swing plane). The reason is because it is ideal to unhinge both the wrists hinge and the trail elbow hinge along their own common plane. Those two hinge actions are going to ALWAYS be most efficient if they are done along the same plane. To NOT hinge and unhinge along the same plane would require a more severe momentum change as they both unhinged or hinged along different planes. And so as the trail arm straightens going down into impact, it is going to be most ideal if the motion of the clubhead "falling away" from the golfer be done such that the shaft, wrists, and trail forearm are all supporting this motion along a common plane. An analogy is a whip cracking. You snap the whip using your arms and wrists to perform the cracking motion along a common plane. The whip also cracks along this same plane.

 

I have an opinion here - and anyone caring or wanting to "go there" is welcome to open this can of "whoop-arse" up with me.

 

Ready?

 

It's entirely possible and in many cases its LIKELY that shaft did NOT drop down or lay down at all to suddenly start flying through the trail side forearm and in fact is still on the same plane as the lead arm.

 

At some point the shaft has to come off the plane established with the lead arm. In fact, the moment the trail arm starts to begin straightening from being bent 90 degrees, that plane relationship is lost. But before this point, which again is the early part of the downswing, the shaft should ideally NOT be laid off and instead in a plane that points below the ball a little bit. Again, if it is laid off in a flatter position, then this is going to require a little more energy to align the unhinging of the trail elbow and wrists with the pull of centripetal force. That ideal plane of unhinging everything basically has to reorient to impact the ball squarely.

 

Does anyone dispute that it LOOKS on camera to have fallen on a flatter plane when in fact - it DID not?

 

I think in general with most good swings the shaft does not fall on a flatter plane. I think Sergio's swing is about the only example I've found where he flattens his shaft plane in the early part of the downswing. But in general in good swings I rarely see the shaft fall off that plane where it is pointing just below the ball.

 

Does anyone care (lol) HOW what I'm saying is even possible?

 

I think it is a good discussion. The unhinging of the wrists and trail elbow is the most complicated motion of the swing and it occurs at nearly the state of highest swing energy. I think it is important to do a 'deep dive' on what is going on.

 

This topic reminds me of lighting the Estes model rocket. If that little cylindrical rocket motor was a dude - no launch. But - if she lit...ZOOM she went.

 

Summing it up - The shaft does NOT have to lay down on a flatter plane to fly through the trail forearm by any gravity fall or purposeful mechanism as seen having somehow changed planes from down-the-line... and in fact is basically STILL on the same plane as it was at the top when it lined up with the LEAD forearm -- Yes or No?

 

I agree that the shaft does not lay down per reasons stated, but to me it is ONLY in the same plane as the lead arm at the top. What complicates the whole physics of what you are saying is that the lead arm is on a MOVING HINGE. The lead shoulder is also turning around the center of the swing and so it is literally moving in space. This complicates what you define as being on a "plane" as the downswing progresses. A point of that plane is literally moving in a circular motion, so it is going to be impossible to have the same plane at two different points in the downswing.

 

What is more important to me is the plane formed by rotating the entire "mass" of the swing in a balanced position around the point directly between the shoulder sockets. I went into depth about this a while back to Palauan Hammer.

[DeNinny]

 

Pause at 1:19 and again at 1:21.

 

Did his shaft change planes or stay on the same plane down from the top. If the latter - why is it now flying through the trail forearm?

 

You can go find this on almost any great ball striker - and you're going to see this apparent look of the shaft changing from the lead arm plane to the trail arm. There's a good chance you do it yourself.

 

HOW is this possible?

 

And btw - on the other side of this one lays the whole bull shizzle about shaft lean - setup - conflicting info ranging from swing in-to-out, swing it to the left (for righties) - handle dragging - over-the-top flatter planes, steeper planes, single plane swings, two-plane swings, casting....

 

Every single bit of all that stuff is nested right here inside of this one single question!

 

Again, it is possible because the position of the lead shoulder is constantly MOVING in relation to where it was at the top and where it is at 1:19 and 1:21. And again in order to set up the unhinging of the wrists and trail elbow along their own same plane going into impact, there is going to be a point where you see this plane on video. And this is exactly what you see at the 1:21 mark. The trail forearm and shaft are on a plane pointing just at the ball or slightly below it. Also note that the plane with the lead forearm is pointing ABOVE the ball at this point.