Not posting scores???

[dhc1]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

[North Butte]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

 

As I understand the rather arcane handicap system rules, then that's exactly what a player should do. If he plays 17 holes by the Rules and hits two balls or whatever off the first tee then post the score for the 17 holes played (with ESC) and then par plus handicap strokes for that one hole played not under the Rules.

 

Assuming it's an otherwise postable round, of course. Not solo, not out of season, etc., etc.

 

P.S. And if I'm wrong about some detail of the handicapping rules it would not surprise me in the slightest.

[dpb5031]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

 

As I understand the rather arcane handicap system rules, then that's exactly what a player should do. If he plays 17 holes by the Rules and hits two balls or whatever off the first tee then post the score for the 17 holes played (with ESC) and then par plus handicap strokes for that one hole played not under the Rules.

 

Assuming it's an otherwise postable round, of course. Not solo, not out of season, etc., etc.

 

P.S. And if I'm wrong about some detail of the handicapping rules it would not surprise me in the slightest.

 

Guy's, none of this even matters if the player is not out there with the intention of playing his absolute best. Plenty of guys go out and slap it around and then post bullsh!t scores, saving their best stuff for net events. Pretty much impossible to fight...

[North Butte]

Yep.

[Noles]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

 

As I understand the rather arcane handicap system rules, then that's exactly what a player should do. If he plays 17 holes by the Rules and hits two balls or whatever off the first tee then post the score for the 17 holes played (with ESC) and then par plus handicap strokes for that one hole played not under the Rules.

 

Assuming it's an otherwise postable round, of course. Not solo, not out of season, etc., etc.

 

P.S. And if I'm wrong about some detail of the handicapping rules it would not surprise me in the slightest.

 

Guy's, none of this even matters if the player is not out there with the intention of playing his absolute best. Plenty of guys go out and slap it around and then post bullsh!t scores, saving their best stuff for net events. Pretty much impossible to fight...

I look at it the opposite way. In the casual rounds, I am trying to play my absolute best, but in competition, I am playing conservatively and trying to avoid big numbers.

[North Butte]

A statistician might suggest that what matters is for your intent to be the same in rounds that COUNT toward your handicap as in rounds where you USE the handicap.

[dpb5031]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

 

As I understand the rather arcane handicap system rules, then that's exactly what a player should do. If he plays 17 holes by the Rules and hits two balls or whatever off the first tee then post the score for the 17 holes played (with ESC) and then par plus handicap strokes for that one hole played not under the Rules.

 

Assuming it's an otherwise postable round, of course. Not solo, not out of season, etc., etc.

 

P.S. And if I'm wrong about some detail of the handicapping rules it would not surprise me in the slightest.

 

Guy's, none of this even matters if the player is not out there with the intention of playing his absolute best. Plenty of guys go out and slap it around and then post bullsh!t scores, saving their best stuff for net events. Pretty much impossible to fight...

I look at it the opposite way. In the casual rounds, I am trying to play my absolute best, but in competition, I am playing conservatively and trying to avoid big numbers.

You're obviously not the type we're speaking of here. The guys I'm talking about know exactly what they're doing. They don't play for anything that matters until it's a big "net" event for cash, title, or both.

 

BTW, scoring one's best often involves mitigating unnecessary risk to avoid big numbers.

[nsxguy]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

Your "policy" is not in accordance with the USGA.

 

If the guy is on the course alone the score is NOT to be posted.

 

If he's not playing by the ROG, e.g.. hitting multipile shots on multiples holes, it is NOT to be counted

 

If he's accompanied and he's playing by the ROG it IS to be posted.

 

If he "forgets" you are required to post a score equaling his lowest differential, NOT a score of your choosing ("par").

[Sawgrass]

 

If he "forgets" you are required to post a score equaling his lowest differential, NOT a score of your choosing ("par").

 

I respect much of what you said in your post #38, but wanted some detail on the above point. I see that Handicap Manual Rule 8-4b says:

b. Penalty Scores for Failure to Post

 

If a player fails to post an acceptable score as soon as practical after completion of the round, the Handicap Committee has three options:

 

1) Post the actual score made by the player;

 

2) Post a penalty scoreequal to the lowest/highest Handicap Differential in the player's scoring record;

 

3) Post the actual score and a penalty score

 

The Handicap Committee is not required to notify the player prior to posting a penalty score.

--------

Regarding number 2 above, I now realize I have no idea what they mean by "the lowest/highest Handicap Differential." I could certainly understand posting the lowest differential as a penalty, but does anyone know what is intended by the phrase "lowest/highest"? (How would posting a high differential be a penalty?)

[DaveLeeNC]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

That seems really extreme. A perfect example would be a foursome competition (as defined in the RoG). Some groups like to occasionally play games like "only five clubs". People have to abandon rounds for a variety of reasons. Or the ubiquitous scramble is a great way to allow an (almost) non-golfer to participate in a meaningful way with experienced (and maybe even highly skilled) golfers. Surely there is some flexibility here.

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

 

Regarding number 2 above, I now realize I have no idea what they mean by "the lowest/highest Handicap Differential." I could certainly understand posting the lowest differential as a penalty, but does anyone know what is intended by the phrase "lowest/highest"? (How would posting a high differential be a penalty?)

 

There are cases where posting a lower score will actually increase your index (and vice versa). This can happen when a person has an "R" handicap (index reduced by exceptional tournament scores). Maybe that is the scenario in mind.

 

Or maybe it is a case where the Handicap Committee believes that the golfer is a vanity handicapper (trying to achieve a lower index than he/she deserves). These golfers can be most irritating if they end up on your team in a handicapped competition.

 

But I admit that I am speculating here.

 

dave

[nsxguy]

If he "forgets" you are required to post a score equaling his lowest differential, NOT a score of your choosing ("par").

 

I respect much of what you said in your post #38, but wanted some detail on the above point. I see that Handicap Manual Rule 8-4b says:

 

 

b. Penalty Scores for Failure to Post

 

If a player fails to post an acceptable score as soon as practical after completion of the round, the Handicap Committee has three options:

 

1) Post the actual score made by the player;

 

2) Post a penalty scoreequal to the lowest/highest Handicap Differential in the player's scoring record;

 

3) Post the actual score and a penalty score

 

The Handicap Committee is not required to notify the player prior to posting a penalty score.

--------

 

Regarding number 2 above, I now realize I have no idea what they mean by "the lowest/highest Handicap Differential." I could certainly understand posting the lowest differential as a penalty, but does anyone know what is intended by the phrase "lowest/highest"? (How would posting a high differential be a penalty?)

 

Perhaps they should have said "best" ? Or just "highest" ? But I think it may be this.

 

Our handicap terminology is confusing in itself. Even if the Rules aren't. :rolleyes:

 

The VAST majority of handicaps are "minus" handicaps but if you ask somebody their handicap they'll say "I'm a 4" (when they're really a 4.1 index). Since a great player would say he's a "+4". So the 1st guy, index aside, should have said "I'm a minus 4".

 

As well, most people would say they subtract their course handicap from their gross score to give a net score. Arithmetically speaking that is incorrect. Since a "4.1" is actually a minus 4.1, doing the arithmetic to get the course handicap would result in a negative, whole number, course handicap.

 

So in reality, everybody ADDS their course handicap to their gross to get their net. Plus handicappers as well as minus handicappers.

 

I guess the USGA could have just said "highest" differential,,,,,,, as +4 is higher than +1 which is higher than -4 which is higher than -8.

 

But (just) "highest" would arguably be even more confusing. Perhaps the word "best" should have been used ? :dntknw:

[mark m]

Regarding number 2 above, I now realize I have no idea what they mean by "the lowest/highest Handicap Differential." I could certainly understand posting the lowest differential as a penalty, but does anyone know what is intended by the phrase "lowest/highest"? (How would posting a high differential be a penalty?)

 

There are cases where posting a lower score will actually increase your index (and vice versa). This can happen when a person has an "R" handicap (index reduced by exceptional tournament scores). Maybe that is the scenario in mind.

 

Or maybe it is a case where the Handicap Committee believes that the golfer is a vanity handicapper (trying to achieve a lower index than he/she deserves). These golfers can be most irritating if they end up on your team in a handicapped competition.

 

But I admit that I am speculating here.

 

dave

 

Hi dave,

 

I never asked, but I believe it is for the vanity cap situation. There are many guys who won't post a high score (due to vanity). As you say, vanity caps make for bad partners and they are basically do damage the central purposes of a golf club - which should be to increase participation and enjoyment of the members.

 

Just a somewhat educated guess.

Hope you are well,

Mark

[Augster]

Vanity cappers, I agree, but the wording is more likely there for plus handicaps as pointed out by nsxguy.

 

If you are above a zero cap, the committee would post your lowest differential. If you are a plus cap, they'd post your "highest" differential.

 

For example, me and a good am play a tough course, 75.0/140. He shoots 63 and posts.

 

His differential is -9.7.

 

When the committee needs to assess a penalty score to him, it'd use the "higher" -9.7 instead of a "lower" -2.5 that might be his next best index.

 

I do agree they should just change it to BEST differential. There's no confusion using best.

 

 

[360_CS]

I don't post match play cards.

[DaveLeeNC]

Vanity cappers, I agree, but the wording is more likely there for plus handicaps as pointed out by nsxguy.

 

If you are above a zero cap, the committee would post your lowest differential. If you are a plus cap, they'd post your "highest" differential.

 

For example, me and a good am play a tough course, 75.0/140. He shoots 63 and posts.

 

His differential is -9.7.

 

When the committee needs to assess a penalty score to him, it'd use the "higher" -9.7 instead of a "lower" -2.5 that might be his next best index.

 

I do agree they should just change it to BEST differential. There's no confusion using best.

 

Maybe it is because I am a math kind of guy, but to me -9.7 is smaller, lower, less than, .... -2.5.

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

I don't post match play cards.

 

Not to be picky, but for those time periods where match play results have been left out you (in principle) do not have a valid handicap.

 

OTOH, I will admit that there are far worse sins out there.

 

dave

[dpb5031]

I don't post match play cards.

 

Not sure where you're from, but in the US most casual rounds of golf amongst friends, especially at private clubs, are some form of match play. Scores must still be posted to have a valid hc.

[DaveLeeNC]

 

Hi dave,

 

I never asked, but I believe it is for the vanity cap situation. There are many guys who won't post a high score (due to vanity). As you say, vanity caps make for bad partners and they are basically do damage the central purposes of a golf club - which should be to increase participation and enjoyment of the members.

 

Just a somewhat educated guess.

Hope you are well,

Mark

 

Mark/others with Handicap Committee related experience..

 

Have any of you ever dealt with a 'vanity sandbagger issue' at your club? My club is large with lots of team play, so we would seem to be the perfect target for such complaints. But in my 8'ish years on the Handicap Committee it never came up. Surprising (in retrospect). I would guess that 80% of the complaints that we dealt with were folks who played a couple of summer tournaments, saw their indexes rise over the winter, and starting about Feb. the "R index" complaints came out of the woodwork.

 

dave

 

ps. Mark - I am doing well by "old golfer standards" :-)

[snoilr1]

 

If he "forgets" you are required to post a score equaling his lowest differential, NOT a score of your choosing ("par").

 

--------

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Regarding number 2 above, I now realize I have no idea what they mean by "the lowest/highest Handicap Differential." I could certainly understand posting the lowest differential as a penalty, but does anyone know what is intended by the phrase "lowest/highest"? (How would posting a high differential be a penalty?)

 

Could it be for the purpose of adjusting the handicap of a player trying to enteri a tournament with a maximum handicap (USOpen qualifier, etc).

[bazinky]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

This policy would drive me nuts. One of my favorite things about my club is being able to play a few holes when I have a spare hour. We have a lot of 3-4 hole combinations that end up back at the club house. I'm usually trying to experiment with different strategies and shots when I'm doing this, so if these score were tracked and entered (which would be huge pain in the butt), I'm pretty sure my handicap would be significantly higher.

 

The larger issue is clubs having too many events that don't require a tournament score to be posted. Requiring T scores makes it a lot harder for a sandbagger to game the system.

[mark m]

Hi dave,

 

I never asked, but I believe it is for the vanity cap situation. There are many guys who won't post a high score (due to vanity). As you say, vanity caps make for bad partners and they are basically do damage the central purposes of a golf club - which should be to increase participation and enjoyment of the members.

 

Just a somewhat educated guess.

Hope you are well,

Mark

 

Mark/others with Handicap Committee related experience..

 

Have any of you ever dealt with a 'vanity sandbagger issue' at your club? My club is large with lots of team play, so we would seem to be the perfect target for such complaints. But in my 8'ish years on the Handicap Committee it never came up. Surprising (in retrospect). I would guess that 80% of the complaints that we dealt with were folks who played a couple of summer tournaments, saw their indexes rise over the winter, and starting about Feb. the "R index" complaints came out of the woodwork.

 

dave

 

ps. Mark - I am doing well by "old golfer standards" :-)

 

Hi dave,

 

When I was involved on the Board and the Handicap Committee back in the 1994 - 2010 years (off and on). I attended at least 3 Handicap seminars run by the USGA and our Association. Back then they did put some emphasis on the vanity cap issue as they said it was much more prevalent than sandbagging (which is probably true). To my knowledge, we have never posted penalty scores for high scores not posted. I did address the issue in our newsletters & club info emails - showing how it does hurt both participation and enjoyment in club tournament partner/team play over time.

 

Outside of that, we have adjusted handicap Indexes up for players with temporary or permanent disabilities. And I know you guys have as well.

 

MM

[bladehunter]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

literally one of the most ignorant things ive ever heard..... im sorry to be blunt but practice on course is the only way you will get better at scoring.... beating balls and rolling straight putts on the practice green will only engrain muscle memory.... they will not make a good player alone.... I wouldnt last 2 weeks at your course... I regularly hit the course for a practice 9 and will hit multiple balls if i dont excecute a shot... ill hit more till i do... ( on a dead day of course) ... surely there is someone to call and report anyone posting false scores into someone elses history..no? i would find out ....

[nsxguy]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

This policy would drive me nuts. One of my favorite things about my club is being able to play a few holes when I have a spare hour. We have a lot of 3-4 hole combinations that end up back at the club house. I'm usually trying to experiment with different strategies and shots when I'm doing this, so if these score were tracked and entered (which would be huge pain in the butt), I'm pretty sure my handicap would be significantly higher.

 

The larger issue is clubs having too many events that don't require a tournament score to be posted. Requiring T scores makes it a lot harder for a sandbagger to game the system.

 

You're cool. And these clubs you mention are flat out wrong.

 

First of all, if you play multiple balls you're not playing by the ROG so the round wouldn't count anyway.

 

Secondly, if you played by yourself the round wouldn't count.

 

And thirdly you have to play at least 7 holes for the round to be posted (in this case as a 9 hole score)

 

Q. What scores can be used for handicapping?

A. A golfer is required to post scores whenever he plays at least 7 holes. If 7 to 12 holes are played, then that score shall be posted as a 9-hole round. If 13 or more holes are played, it shall be posted as an 18-hole round.

[North Butte]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

This policy would drive me nuts. One of my favorite things about my club is being able to play a few holes when I have a spare hour. We have a lot of 3-4 hole combinations that end up back at the club house. I'm usually trying to experiment with different strategies and shots when I'm doing this, so if these score were tracked and entered (which would be huge pain in the butt), I'm pretty sure my handicap would be significantly higher.

 

The larger issue is clubs having too many events that don't require a tournament score to be posted. Requiring T scores makes it a lot harder for a sandbagger to game the system.

 

You're cool. And these clubs you mention are flat out wrong.

 

First of all, if you play multiple balls you're not playing by the ROG so the round wouldn't count anyway.

 

Secondly, if you played by yourself the round wouldn't count.

 

And thirdly you have to play at least 7 holes for the round to be posted (in this case as a 9 hole score)

 

Q. What scores can be used for handicapping?

A. A golfer is required to post scores whenever he plays at least 7 holes. If 7 to 12 holes are played, then that score shall be posted as a 9-hole round. If 13 or more holes are played, it shall be posted as an 18-hole round.

 

What friend Truman said works the other way 'round. He's not trying to force players to post not-allowed rounds into the handicap system. He's trying to force players to never step foot on his course unless they are playing a full round under the Rules of Golf in a manner acceptable to the handicap system. He can't stand the idea of someone out on the course doing something beside pretending their playing in the US flippin' Open.

 

Somehow I'll bet his course isn't real fun to deal with on many other issues besides of the posting of rounds for handicap purposes!

[nsxguy]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

literally one of the most ignorant things ive ever heard..... im sorry to be blunt but practice on course is the only way you will get better at scoring.... beating balls and rolling straight putts on the practice green will only engrain muscle memory.... they will not make a good player alone.... I wouldnt last 2 weeks at your course... I regularly hit the course for a practice 9 and will hit multiple balls if i dont excecute a shot... ill hit more till i do... ( on a dead day of course) ... surely there is someone to call and report anyone posting false scores into someone elses history..no? i would find out ....

 

I think you MAY be taking him too literally as there are many instances where rounds, per the USGA, wouldn't be allowed to be posted for handicaps anyway, regardless of what his club says.

 

Besides the ones mentioned above to bazinky, there are any number of other reasons NOT to post a score (listed in that link),,,,,, and of course that includes your scenario of hitting multiple balls. I would LOVE to see his club justify "forcing" a member to post a score under those circumstances.

 

Surely his local association would never allow that.

[SurfDuffer]

After thinking about it I've got to ask what the name of this imaginary is????

[smeech8000]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

 

A convenient accommodation of the practice involves "abandoning" the round after striking the first tee ball, then considering the BB the first shot of an entirely new round.

 

Obviously, you lose the option to play the original tee shot (if it ended up in better shape than the second) under these circumstances, and it precludes using the BB anywhere except on the first tee.

[North Butte]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

 

A convenient accommodation of the practice involves "abandoning" the round after striking the first tee ball, then considering the BB the first shot of an entirely new round.

 

Obviously, you lose the option to play the original tee shot (if it ended up in better shape than the second) under these circumstances, and it precludes using the BB anywhere except on the first tee.

 

Back when the USGA idiotically insisted that Every Score Is Sacred and wanted me to post solo rounds, I was always tempted to say to myself on the first tee "I agree with myself to waive Rule 14-4" and just take the DQ.

[Sawgrass]

Our policy is if you're on the course a score must be posted. We don't consider the course a practice area. The practice area is for practice.

This policy seems to have minimized our sandbagging issues.

We do occasionally have e new member test the policy. A score of par is entered for them if they "forget", as a service.

 

We have a similar rule. I'd be interested to see what posters here think about members who play a breakfast ball. Could they still post while simply assuming that they played 17 holes and use score for an unplayed hole for the first?

 

A convenient accommodation of the practice involves "abandoning" the round after striking the first tee ball, then considering the BB the first shot of an entirely new round.

 

Obviously, you lose the option to play the original tee shot (if it ended up in better shape than the second) under these circumstances, and it precludes using the BB anywhere except on the first tee.

 

Back when the USGA idiotically insisted that Every Score Is Sacred and wanted me to post solo rounds, I was always tempted to say to myself on the first tee "I agree with myself to waive Rule 14-4" and just take the DQ.

 

So now I'm wondering, "Does he know many types of DQ rounds must nevertheless be posted?"