USGA Proposes to Modernize Rules of Golf

[Sawgrass]

No, and hasn't this thread already established a dozen different ways in which the current Rules violate Tufts' "principles"? Included one or more things that Tufts himself is on record finding abhorrent.

 

It's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the golf rulebook [apologies to Ulysses Everett McGill].

If you didn't so quickly dismiss Tufts, you'd learn that his book shows how the principles are connected and relate to those Rules which distance themselves from the base principles.

 

As is obvious, subjective judgements are made in the Rules when they deliberately differ from the principles. But it's ignorant to assume that those subjective judgements are devoid of logic. The lines may not be drawn where you like them, but that's a different matter. If you want some credibility in complaining about any of those lines I'd first suggest putting some effort into better understanding why they are drawn where they are. Simply saying that they don't make sense doesn't make sense.

[davep043]

For those who might be interested a little, but not enough to actually read the 70-something page Tufts book, here's a starting point, just 6 pages long, and written a few years before Tufts.:

https://ncga.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Joe_Dey_Article.pdf

As @Sawgrass says, reading some of these will help a player to see threads of logic that tie many of the rules together. Its not perfect, and many of the choices have to be a little arbitrary, but there's a lot more logic than many people choose to believe.

[sui generis]

No, and hasn't this thread already established a dozen different ways in which the current Rules violate Tufts' "principles"? Included one or more things that Tufts himself is on record finding abhorrent.

 

It's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the golf rulebook [apologies to Ulysses Everett McGill].

 

You'd do well to read this also:

 

How to Love the Rules of Golf by Howard J. Meditz

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Love-Rules-Golf-Howard-Meditz-ebook/dp/B072593D5P/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1519417312&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=how+to+love+the+rules+of+golf&psc=1

[QEight]

Has this draft been here yet?

 

https://www.rules.go...f-for-2019.ashx

[Newby]

Has this draft been here yet?

 

https://www.rules.go...f-for-2019.ashx

 

Yes.It has been around for nearly a year.

 

As has this

 

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2017/rules-modernization/players-edition.pdf

[QEight]

Has this draft been here yet?

 

https://www.rules.go...f-for-2019.ashx

 

Yes.It has been around for nearly a year.

 

As has this

 

http://www.usga.org/...ers-edition.pdf

 

For whatever reason I have not read it until now. I read all the preliminary material and filled in questionaries...

 

But I have heard that 12th of March something happens. Somewhere anyway...

[davep043]

Has this draft been here yet?

 

https://www.rules.go...f-for-2019.ashx

 

Yes.It has been around for nearly a year.

 

As has this

 

http://www.usga.org/...ers-edition.pdf

 

For whatever reason I have not read it until now. I read all the preliminary material and filled in questionaries...

 

But I have heard that 12th of March something happens. Somewhere anyway...

I don't know about that exact date, but the finalized rules, after considerations, review of player's feedback (like your quesitonaire), should be coming out sometime in the next few months, and go into effect on 1 January 2019. The USGA Q&A suggests that education efforts on the new rules will begin in the second half of 2018

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/modernizing-golf-s-rules--faqs.html#education

[smeech8000]

I'm more interested in rules that changed to allow something that used to be banned. Who's to say greens are designed to be pristine but fairways are not?

 

Like when it was illegal to use anything besides your hand to remove loose impediments from your intended line (on the putting green)?

 

IMO the distinction (i.e. why the putting green is "special" relative to closely mown areas through the green) lies in the nature of the shot to be played from each area - shots on the putting green are in contact with the ground over nearly 100% of the shot's duration whereas a shot played from the fairway will mostly travel through the air.

 

Even the largest putting greens comprise maybe 5-10% of a hole's total area compared to the fairways' ~50% on most par 4 and 5 holes... so maintaining fairways to the standard of putting greens is also extremely cost prohibitive, regardless of future agronomic advances.

[Roadking2003]

I'm more interested in rules that changed to allow something that used to be banned. Who's to say greens are designed to be pristine but fairways are not?

 

Like when it was illegal to use anything besides your hand to remove loose impediments from your intended line (on the putting green)?

 

IMO the distinction (i.e. why the putting green is "special" relative to closely mown areas through the green) lies in the nature of the shot to be played from each area - shots on the putting green are in contact with the ground over nearly 100% of the shot's duration whereas a shot played from the fairway will mostly travel through the air.

 

Even the largest putting greens comprise maybe 5-10% of a hole's total area compared to the fairways' ~50% on most par 4 and 5 holes... so maintaining fairways to the standard of putting greens is also extremely cost prohibitive, regardless of future agronomic advances.

 

There is no need for "maintaining fairways to the standard of putting greens". Just allow golfers to clean the ball in the fairway and fix holes like they can on the green. NO CHANGE in maintenance.

 

And BTW, hitting a mud covered ball in the fairway will impact your shot at least as much as it will on the green.

[North Butte]

I am often "guilty" of not bothering to clean my ball on the green if I don't need to mark it out of someone's way and it's a dry day without a lot of mud about. Our course is sand based and unless there's been a lot of rain the ball just doesn't get dirty much.

 

The other day I walked up and put (I thought) a good roll on a 25-foot putt. Turned out there was a big hunk of mud directly underneath the ball. It rolled about eight feet, took a right turn, then a bounce back to the left then stopped way short of the hole.

 

Live and learn I guess. At least I was playing by myself so the 3-jack didn't cost me any money.

[smeech8000]

I'm more interested in rules that changed to allow something that used to be banned. Who's to say greens are designed to be pristine but fairways are not?

 

Like when it was illegal to use anything besides your hand to remove loose impediments from your intended line (on the putting green)?

 

IMO the distinction (i.e. why the putting green is "special" relative to closely mown areas through the green) lies in the nature of the shot to be played from each area - shots on the putting green are in contact with the ground over nearly 100% of the shot's duration whereas a shot played from the fairway will mostly travel through the air.

 

Even the largest putting greens comprise maybe 5-10% of a hole's total area compared to the fairways' ~50% on most par 4 and 5 holes... so maintaining fairways to the standard of putting greens is also extremely cost prohibitive, regardless of future agronomic advances.

 

There is no need for "maintaining fairways to the standard of putting greens". Just allow golfers to clean the ball in the fairway and fix holes like they can on the green. NO CHANGE in maintenance.

 

And BTW, hitting a mud covered ball in the fairway will impact your shot at least as much as it will on the green.

 

Ah, but aren't you simply shifting the burden of maintenance from the grounds crew to the player with your recommendation? We already discussed - ad nauseam - that there is no universally agreed-upon definition of "divot", which is the first step in proposing any kind of rule revision. Would you permit the player to fix any kind of irregularity they find in closely mown areas?

 

FWIW, I was addressing Leo's inquiry about why greens differ from fairways in standard of maintenance, and gave an example of a rule that has changed in the spirit of this distinction.

 

To your last point, does LCP not solve that problem?

[Roadking2003]

Ah, but aren't you simply shifting the burden of maintenance from the grounds crew to the player with your recommendation? We already discussed - ad nauseam - that there is no universally agreed-upon definition of "divot", which is the first step in proposing any kind of rule revision. Would you permit the player to fix any kind of irregularity they find in closely mown areas?

 

Yes, I would. No need to argue about the definition of a divot. No need to argue about mud on the ball. Clean it.

[North Butte]

Ah, but aren't you simply shifting the burden of maintenance from the grounds crew to the player with your recommendation? We already discussed - ad nauseam - that there is no universally agreed-upon definition of "divot", which is the first step in proposing any kind of rule revision. Would you permit the player to fix any kind of irregularity they find in closely mown areas?

 

Yes, I would. No need to argue about the definition of a divot. No need to argue about mud on the ball. Clean it.

 

My first choice would be to play the ball down and putt it out without touching it, period.

 

My second choice would be friend RoadKing's suggestion of clean it everywhere.

 

The actual Rules as they have been and will no doubt continue to be for the rest of my life are a distant third choice. Primarily because they are needlessly complex and subject to interpretation, much less the fact they are so widely ignored or modified. Even the stinkin' PGA Tour plays "lift, clean and place" at the slightly provocation.

[QEight]

I guess we have to wait for next revision for divot rule. So perhaps there is something else to discuss in meantime.

[DaveLeeNC]

 

 

Ah, but aren't you simply shifting the burden of maintenance from the grounds crew to the player with your recommendation? We already discussed - ad nauseam - that there is no universally agreed-upon definition of "divot", which is the first step in proposing any kind of rule revision. Would you permit the player to fix any kind of irregularity they find in closely mown areas?

 

FWIW, I was addressing Leo's inquiry about why greens differ from fairways in standard of maintenance, and gave an example of a rule that has changed in the spirit of this distinction.

 

To your last point, does LCP not solve that problem?

 

I am just fine with how the RoG currently treat divots. HOWEVER, if the current situation WRT ballmarks on the green is acceptable, I would think that a divot would not be a tough nut to crack.

 

dave

[North Butte]

Ah, but aren't you simply shifting the burden of maintenance from the grounds crew to the player with your recommendation? We already discussed - ad nauseam - that there is no universally agreed-upon definition of "divot", which is the first step in proposing any kind of rule revision. Would you permit the player to fix any kind of irregularity they find in closely mown areas?

 

FWIW, I was addressing Leo's inquiry about why greens differ from fairways in standard of maintenance, and gave an example of a rule that has changed in the spirit of this distinction.

 

To your last point, does LCP not solve that problem?

 

I am just fine with how the RoG currently treat divots. HOWEVER, if the current situation WRT ballmarks on the green is acceptable, I would think that a divot would not be a tough nut to crack.

 

dave

 

I'm with dave.

 

I've got no particular interest in seeing the Rules accommodate the "roll 'em in the fairway" brigade. I think that's a silly thing to even want to do, frankly.

 

But you can't make out like it is somehow completely foreign to anything that has ever been allowed in golf, ever, when there are already similar situations where you're allowed to improve the course before your next stroke.

 

I keep repeating the old punch line about we've established what kind of girl you are, now we're just haggling over price.

[finleysg]

Ah, but aren't you simply shifting the burden of maintenance from the grounds crew to the player with your recommendation? We already discussed - ad nauseam - that there is no universally agreed-upon definition of "divot", which is the first step in proposing any kind of rule revision. Would you permit the player to fix any kind of irregularity they find in closely mown areas?

 

FWIW, I was addressing Leo's inquiry about why greens differ from fairways in standard of maintenance, and gave an example of a rule that has changed in the spirit of this distinction.

 

To your last point, does LCP not solve that problem?

 

I am just fine with how the RoG currently treat divots. HOWEVER, if the current situation WRT ballmarks on the green is acceptable, I would think that a divot would not be a tough nut to crack.

 

dave

 

I'm with dave.

 

I've got no particular interest in seeing the Rules accommodate the "roll 'em in the fairway" brigade. I think that's a silly thing to even want to do, frankly.

 

But you can't make out like it is somehow completely foreign to anything that has ever been allowed in golf, ever, when there are already similar situations where you're allowed to improve the course before your next stroke.

 

I keep repeating the old punch line about we've established what kind of girl you are, now we're just haggling over price.

 

I suppose the fairways as defined by the rules would have to rise to the level of "specially prepared surface" or something like that. I know on a lot of courses, an argument can be made that that's true. Not my home track, though. Determining where the fairway ends is a real challenge in spots.

 

I believe the divot rule is one that will eventually change, but I don't believe it is going to be in the near future. Personally, I don't care about it that much. It's just a lie. Hit the ball.

[Roadking2003]

I keep repeating the old punch line about we've established what kind of girl you are, now we're just haggling over price.

 

Exactly! And the price isn't that high.

 

Our current rules allow all of these many times;

 

Clean the ball? No problem

 

Fix holes? No problem

 

Move stuff? No problem

 

Move your ball? No problem

 

Replay a shot? No problem

 

Change your golf ball? No problem

 

"Play the course as you find it" and "play the ball as it lies" are violated constantly.

[AmazinBlue]

All the leagues and groups I have played in always play the OB ball as take a drop near where it went out and take a stroke (so if a tee shot goes OB take a drop nearby and you're hitting 3). According to the 2019 revision it's 2 strokes and you can choose anywhere behind the line of where it went out out all the way to the fairway for 2 strokes. So is every OB drop 2 strokes (so hitting from the tee OB then your laying 3, hitting 4)???

[Newby]

All the leagues and groups I have played in always play the OB ball as take a drop near where it went out and take a stroke (so if a tee shot goes OB take a drop nearby and you're hitting 3). According to the 2019 revision it's 2 strokes and you can choose anywhere behind the line of where it went out out all the way to the fairway for 2 strokes. So is every OB drop 2 strokes (so hitting from the tee OB then your laying 3, hitting 4)???

Not if you take the normal S&D of the tee.

The extra penalty is in effect for taking you to the fairway rather than 'near where it went out'.

[davep043]

All the leagues and groups I have played in always play the OB ball as take a drop near where it went out and take a stroke (so if a tee shot goes OB take a drop nearby and you're hitting 3). According to the 2019 revision it's 2 strokes and you can choose anywhere behind the line of where it went out out all the way to the fairway for 2 strokes. So is every OB drop 2 strokes (so hitting from the tee OB then your laying 3, hitting 4)???

I hope you understand that your "normal" procedure is NOT allowed under the current rules. Under the current rules, if you hit your first OB, you take a penalty (stroke 2), and hit another tee shot (stroke 3). Your next shot, hitting from the fairway, the woods, wherever, is hitting 4. The 2019 local rule (remember, this only applies if the course/club chooses to apply it) still has you hitting 4 from about even with the point where the ball went OB. The difference is that you don't have the risk of hitting shot #3 into some awful nasty place, you get to pick the spot. On the down side, if you hit the first tee shot nearly sideways, your drop might be only 50 yards in front of the tee.

[Roadking2003]

All the leagues and groups I have played in always play the OB ball as take a drop near where it went out and take a stroke (so if a tee shot goes OB take a drop nearby and you're hitting 3). According to the 2019 revision it's 2 strokes and you can choose anywhere behind the line of where it went out out all the way to the fairway for 2 strokes. So is every OB drop 2 strokes (so hitting from the tee OB then your laying 3, hitting 4)???

 

If you didn't hit a provisional, we drop in the fairway about where your normal drive would go and add TWO strokes. That's a better way to approximate stroke and distance. It also means you will most likely lose the hole.

[Roadking2003]

I hope you understand that your "normal" procedure is NOT allowed under the current rules. Under the current rules, if you hit your first OB, you take a penalty (stroke 2), and hit another tee shot (stroke 3). Your next shot, hitting from the fairway, the woods, wherever, is hitting 4. The 2019 local rule (remember, this only applies if the course/club chooses to apply it) still has you hitting 4 from about even with the point where the ball went OB. The difference is that you don't have the risk of hitting shot #3 into some awful nasty place, you get to pick the spot. On the down side, if you hit the first tee shot nearly sideways, your drop might be only 50 yards in front of the tee.

 

But you can still replay the shot with a one stroke penalty, right? That would be better than dropping after hitting it almost sideways.

[davep043]

I hope you understand that your "normal" procedure is NOT allowed under the current rules. Under the current rules, if you hit your first OB, you take a penalty (stroke 2), and hit another tee shot (stroke 3). Your next shot, hitting from the fairway, the woods, wherever, is hitting 4. The 2019 local rule (remember, this only applies if the course/club chooses to apply it) still has you hitting 4 from about even with the point where the ball went OB. The difference is that you don't have the risk of hitting shot #3 into some awful nasty place, you get to pick the spot. On the down side, if you hit the first tee shot nearly sideways, your drop might be only 50 yards in front of the tee.

 

But you can still replay the shot with a one stroke penalty, right? That would be better than dropping after hitting it almost sideways.

Yes, and that option would still be available if the Local Rule is adopted. And yes, it would be better, as long as you didn't repeat the first shot, the one that you can't find, or that went over the fence. Ya win some, ya lose some.

[QEight]

And here they are: https://www.rules.golf/

 

Whole book and nothing but the book: https://www.rules.go...f-for-2019.ashx

 

Should a new thread be started for this now they are published?

 

edit: there seems to be one with slightly obscure topic name...

[Thetid]

So what happens if you hit your approach out of bounds but pin high (or just past the pin). Do you take 2 strokes and drop right next to the hole? I assume that's not the case but......(Btw I think I'm this is a great rule)

[Newby]

So what happens if you hit your approach out of bounds but pin high (or just past the pin). Do you take 2 strokes and drop right next to the hole? I assume that's not the case but......(Btw I think I'm this is a great rule)

You can't drop it nearer the hole. You may well end up in front of or behind the green.

Have you seen the diagram that goes with it?

 

Edit: Video link added

 

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

[klbrown514]

So what happens if you hit your approach out of bounds but pin high (or just past the pin). Do you take 2 strokes and drop right next to the hole? I assume that's not the case but......(Btw I think I'm this is a great rule)

 

Straight from the USGA website

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

[Newby]

So what happens if you hit your approach out of bounds but pin high (or just past the pin). Do you take 2 strokes and drop right next to the hole? I assume that's not the case but......(Btw I think I'm this is a great rule)

 

Straight from the USGA website

 

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

 

I seem to have lost the link directly to the local rule and the explanation video/diagram. Can someone point me to it please?

 

Edit:

 

Found it on the USGA site

 

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

 

but can't see it in the R&A site

[LCP]

So what happens if you hit your approach out of bounds but pin high (or just past the pin). Do you take 2 strokes and drop right next to the hole? I assume that's not the case but......(Btw I think I'm this is a great rule)

 

Straight from the USGA website

 

Limits on Location of Relief Area:

• Must be in the general area, and
  
• Must not be nearer the hole than the ball reference point.
  

 

I seem to have lost the link directly to the local rule and the explanation video/diagram. Can someone point me to it please?

 

Edit:

 

Found it on the USGA site

 

http://www.usga.org/...d-distance.html

 

but can't see it in the R&A site

 

That's ridiculous. No way you should actually be able to drop in the fairway...and I would be the one to take advantage of it the most out of anyone I regularly play with. Let me see -- ball is in the street or someone's bathroom, but I'll just go up 320 yards on the edge of the fairway, pull out a wedge, plop it on the green, hopefully close to the hole, and see if I can sink the putt for an ordinary bogey.