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As far as stance, I can't get the feeling of fanny underneath (not sticking out) AND standing straight.

Any tips or anyone have pics of their stance / back angle? Is it ok to bend form the hips?

I have a feeling I am trying to get to a "standing upright" stance that its wrong and unbalanced.

 

Also.....how close to you guys stand to/from the ball? Pics would help greatly.

 

Love that this thread picked up steam....lots and lots of good info in here :)

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Thanks for this tip! I just picked one up on Ebay. This should help me continue to improve my putting with JB's connected swing mechanics (and chipping also).

 

It will be the best money you ever spent to help your putting.

 

I just wanted to thank you again for this recommendation. I was playing in Florida last weekend and my putting was much more consistent as a result of using this training aid for just a few weeks.

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9.0 Fujikura Ventus Black TS 6S
Callaway XR 3+ wood Project X Hzrdus Handcrafted 6.0 LZ
Callaway XR 5 wood Project X Hzrdus Handcrafted 6.0 LZ
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Mizuno JPX 919 HMP Nippon N.S.Pro Modus3 Tour 120S - 4-A
Mizuno  54* Nippon N.S.Pro Modus3 Tour 120S
Odyssey Stroke Lab #1 33"

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I’d like to get some input on elbows down. I’ve started working on this last week and I have a feeling like the elbows keep down especially in the through swing, which helps keeping the club in front of your triangle. The swing does speed up with this sequence. I got some interesting head speed and the club swishes through fast and easy. Is this the sequence of the JB swing. I’ve gained like 20 yards with driver without having to lung at it and mainly throug rhythm.

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I’d like to get some input on elbows down. I’ve started working on this last week and I have a feeling like the elbows keep down especially in the through swing, which helps keeping the club in front of your triangle. The swing does speed up with this sequence. I got some interesting head speed and the club swishes through fast and easy. Is this the sequence of the JB swing. I’ve gained like 20 yards with driver without having to lung at it and mainly throug rhythm.

 

Ok here is an easy answer.. take half a back swing with your elbows DOWN and shaft approx. over toe line . The toe of club should be pointing up. Now pivot either of your elbows out and look at what its doing to the club head and handle of the club !. When Jimmy Ballard showed me this check point and moved his elbows as mentioned he said (in so many words) "now how the hell are you going to hit the ball down there without making a wild re-routing move in your downswing". Do the same thing in your through swing while the club is waist high and you will get the gist of why elbows down back and through is the MAIN component of his theory. Without doing this the other elements are meaningless.

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I’d like to get some input on elbows down. I’ve started working on this last week and I have a feeling like the elbows keep down especially in the through swing, which helps keeping the club in front of your triangle. The swing does speed up with this sequence. I got some interesting head speed and the club swishes through fast and easy. Is this the sequence of the JB swing. I’ve gained like 20 yards with driver without having to lung at it and mainly throug rhythm.

 

Ok here is an easy answer.. take half a back swing with your elbows DOWN and shaft approx. over toe line . The toe of club should be pointing up. Now pivot either of your elbows out and look at what its doing to the club head and handle of the club !. When Jimmy Ballard showed me this check point and moved his elbows as mentioned he said (in so many words) "now how the hell are you going to hit the ball down there without making a wild re-routing move in your downswing". Do the same thing in your through swing while the club is waist high and you will get the gist of why elbows down back and through is the MAIN component of his theory. Without doing this the other elements are meaningless.

I probably deviate from right elbow down. Keeping it above the left is my priority because when I make a transition I lose the forces easier when they both point down. So I would rather have it like Nicklaus :)

 

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Many(other swing gurus) accused Jimmy of promoting a sway yet when i discussed this with him he said "nonsense" and more or less with a "braced right knee" how can you sway !

 

Yes and to add to that statement, with the right foot (right handed golfer) turned towards the target it's very difficult to sway and get over the wall. Like I said in a previous post, all the years I have spent with JB, the only thing that I have noticed that he has changed in his teaching is that he used to want the right foot square/perpendicular to the target and now he wants it turned towards the target. Colbert stopped by a few weeks ago to visit JB and he said that he actually tried to point his right big toe at the ball when he took his address.

 

Below is a picture of Colbert sharing some of his feels and thoughts a few weeks ago.... the guy in the middle is Johan Tumba who I used to play pro golf with in the 1990's, he is a very long hitting Swede (back when 300+ yards was not as common), he is very good friends with Jesper and played on Jesper's college team at Palm Beach Community College back when they won the national championship.... three of those five players from that National Championship team work with JB; Johan Tumba, Jesper Parnevik and David Ladd..... that speak volumes. JB's teaching was ahead of his time and TIMELESS as long as the human body continues to have two hip sockets :).

 

I've tried to save as many Jimmy Ballard articles as I could since 1980.... I didn't start working will Ballard until 1995, but in the 1980's I worked with one of his disciples who was a great player named Paul Moran so most of my golfing life has been centered around Jimmy Ballard's teaching philosophy. I am including an article from Golf Digest in 1981 that talks about the wall, it's also mentioned in his book, but the article takes up a full page on this topic and is much easier to scan than a page from his book.

 

DJ I have contacted Jane Rosenburg about a video of Jimmy and Colbert taking about what they teach. Its an excellent clinic between Jimmy and Colbert. Jane said its available on Jimmys website but I cannot find. I figure u might have it ? Awesome video but cannot find when they first opened their school for Jane location.https://m.facebook.com/pg/colbertballardgolfschool/posts/

 

The Ballard and Colbert video was excellent. It used to be available on YouTube but now seems to have disappeared. If someone has access to it please upload it.

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I'd like to get some input on elbows down. I've started working on this last week and I have a feeling like the elbows keep down especially in the through swing, which helps keeping the club in front of your triangle. The swing does speed up with this sequence. I got some interesting head speed and the club swishes through fast and easy. Is this the sequence of the JB swing. I've gained like 20 yards with driver without having to lung at it and mainly throug rhythm.

 

Ok here is an easy answer.. take half a back swing with your elbows DOWN and shaft approx. over toe line . The toe of club should be pointing up. Now pivot either of your elbows out and look at what its doing to the club head and handle of the club !. When Jimmy Ballard showed me this check point and moved his elbows as mentioned he said (in so many words) "now how the hell are you going to hit the ball down there without making a wild re-routing move in your downswing". Do the same thing in your through swing while the club is waist high and you will get the gist of why elbows down back and through is the MAIN component of his theory. Without doing this the other elements are meaningless.

I probably deviate from right elbow down. Keeping it above the left is my priority because when I make a transition I lose the forces easier when they both point down. So I would rather have it like Nicklaus :)

Indeed if flying that elbow a little works for you go for it:) ..Many peeps that i seen who do this over swing and the dispersion pattern is very wide. Jack's success was very much attributed to him being a gifted athlete and being very regimented in his pre-shot routine. Here is a great clip on ball position :

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I'd like to get some input on elbows down. I've started working on this last week and I have a feeling like the elbows keep down especially in the through swing, which helps keeping the club in front of your triangle. The swing does speed up with this sequence. I got some interesting head speed and the club swishes through fast and easy. Is this the sequence of the JB swing. I've gained like 20 yards with driver without having to lung at it and mainly throug rhythm.

 

Ok here is an easy answer.. take half a back swing with your elbows DOWN and shaft approx. over toe line . The toe of club should be pointing up. Now pivot either of your elbows out and look at what its doing to the club head and handle of the club !. When Jimmy Ballard showed me this check point and moved his elbows as mentioned he said (in so many words) "now how the hell are you going to hit the ball down there without making a wild re-routing move in your downswing". Do the same thing in your through swing while the club is waist high and you will get the gist of why elbows down back and through is the MAIN component of his theory. Without doing this the other elements are meaningless.

I probably deviate from right elbow down. Keeping it above the left is my priority because when I make a transition I lose the forces easier when they both point down. So I would rather have it like Nicklaus :)

Indeed if flying that elbow a little works for you go for it:) ..Many peeps that i seen who do this over swing and the dispersion pattern is very wide. Jack's success was very much attributed to him being a gifted athlete and being very regimented in his pre-shot routine. Here is a great clip on ball position :

 

I lean on erroring on too much right arm high and cross line. Seems like Rocco does that too where JB wants elbows on a table in backswing.

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As far as stance, I can't get the feeling of fanny underneath (not sticking out) AND standing straight.

Any tips or anyone have pics of their stance / back angle? Is it ok to bend form the hips?

I have a feeling I am trying to get to a "standing upright" stance that its wrong and unbalanced.

 

Also.....how close to you guys stand to/from the ball? Pics would help greatly.

 

Love that this thread picked up steam....lots and lots of good info in here :)

 

Standing “the club up” in a vertical position I believe would be more the issue alongside the more vertical military posture Hogan emphasis and affirmed by Ballard

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tNCGzIte0Ww

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As for lateral motion in the swing; I feel there has been too much emphasis on "staying centered" or not moving your head/ body. However, when great ball strikers are viewed you see a definitive lateral move "off" the ball in the backswing, and a move toward the target in the downswing and follow through.

 

But in all great golfers it looks like they are not moving their head or body laterally. It's an illusion, much like how their rhythmic swings, hides how fast they are swinging.

 

I've attached a pic of Rickie Fowler, and I was surprised how much like Strange he looks at the top of his swing.

 

My conclusion being: 1. lateral motion is necessary. 2. Lateral motion makes you more consistent by increasing the length in your swing the club face is square to the target. If you keep everything centered there's only going to be one point in your swing where the club face is square.

 

Conventional wisdom would be that the better the player, the more they stay centered or keep,their head still. But this just isn't the case.

These are all thoughts just circling around in my head I just wanted to add to the discussion.

Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
Bobby: I play because I love it.
Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.

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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

This is my swing : I already struggle maintaining width in downswing. If I folding or hinged my left elbow I think it would add or complicate things but thats why I am trying to understand what JB is really saying.

 

 

I would argue that width at the top doesn't make a dime's with of difference, in principle.

 

The only width that is important is the "width", or distance, from your chest to the ball at address. I don't care if you collapse everything at the top or keep everything stiff and rigid at the top. If your width isn't basically the same at impact as at address you are going to miss the shot.

 

I will argue that it doesn't make any difference if you are wide or folded at the top, because you have not stored more energy and released more energy in either case. What is different in the two cases is a matter of different geometry - the motion of the body and club are different in the two cases. But if you have loaded up and stored the same amount of energy in both cases such that your body is unwinding and fully releasing the stored energy in both cases, and the width is the same at impact in both cases (and if it isn't you are going to miss the ball) it doesn't really matter. My evidence is the following:

 

 

He is a long drive competitor. Power and distance are everything to this sort of person and he clearly doesn't feel the need to maintain width at the top.

 

The advantage of the geometry of the Ballard swing is a consistency of motion that reliably delivers a square club face into the ball at impact, and this is brought about by maintaining connection by allowing the arms to fold at the elbows and not attempting to maintain width via a stiff left arm that can lead to disconnection.

 

Radius vs Width

Please explain ur take on radius importance.

Thx

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A great way to simplify and understand the elbows is to address the ball, hinge the club up vertically so the shaft is touching the forehead, then coil behind the ball to the top of the backswing while maintaining your connection.

 

Agreed. Just don't see the difference between hinging and folding. To me the terms are interchangeable. T

 

This is my swing : I already struggle maintaining width in downswing. If I folding or hinged my left elbow I think it would add or complicate things but thats why I am trying to understand what JB is really saying.

 

 

I would argue that width at the top doesn't make a dime's with of difference, in principle.

 

The only width that is important is the "width", or distance, from your chest to the ball at address. I don't care if you collapse everything at the top or keep everything stiff and rigid at the top. If your width isn't basically the same at impact as at address you are going to miss the shot.

 

I will argue that it doesn't make any difference if you are wide or folded at the top, because you have not stored more energy and released more energy in either case. What is different in the two cases is a matter of different geometry - the motion of the body and club are different in the two cases. But if you have loaded up and stored the same amount of energy in both cases such that your body is unwinding and fully releasing the stored energy in both cases, and the width is the same at impact in both cases (and if it isn't you are going to miss the ball) it doesn't really matter. My evidence is the following:

 

 

He is a long drive competitor. Power and distance are everything to this sort of person and he clearly doesn't feel the need to maintain width at the top.

 

The advantage of the geometry of the Ballard swing is a consistency of motion that reliably delivers a square club face into the ball at impact, and this is brought about by maintaining connection by allowing the arms to fold at the elbows and not attempting to maintain width via a stiff left arm that can lead to disconnection.

 

Radius vs Width

Please explain ur take on radius importance.

Thx

 

The width that you seemed to be interested in was the width at the top, especially if the elbows fold, so that’s the way I took your question. Width at the top is the distance between your hands and your head, basically, per what speedster said. If the elbows fold there isn’t a lot of width.

 

Ballard uses radius as described by speedster, and he refers to it here:

 

 

I think that his words about connection and radius in this video are a bit confusing. If the elbows fold the radius gets smaller; it doesn’t stay the same. The evidence of this is that if I fold my elbows at the top and don’t allow them to unfold I miss the ball completely because my radius is too small at the bottom.

 

So, when I lose width I also lose radius. But if I am in the Ballard geometry at the top - coiled into the big muscles and connected - the geometry of the triangle still exists but is folded up. And the angle of the clubface hasn’t changed, which is the key(!!). This is because it is impossible for the hinging of the elbows to create an angle. I can prove this to myself by holding the club in front of me, getting connected, and hinging the elbows up and then un-hinging them. There is absolutely no change in the angle of the clubface, it is square to the target because the elbows can hinge up and down, and nothing more.

 

Now, what about the radius and the club face when the elbow comes out and I lose connection? Once I do this the radius changes but so does the face angle. The radius is going to re-form on the downswing all right, but I have lost control of the club face angle because the shoulder joints are now involved, and they can move in just about any way imaginable. I now have to apply complex corrective actions to get the face back, such as maybe holding my head back and rotating like crazy and hitting into a reverse-c, or coming over the top, or who knows what?

 

The difference between the geometry of connection and disconnection in the backswing, and how it effects the clubface, is easy to see and dramatic. I put myself into the Ballard geometry at the top, which is to say connected, with my elbows folded or unfolded, whatever. Now I slowly turn shoulders back to the target with no swinging of the arms, only un-hinging of the elbows if they were hinged. The face automatically squares. I do the same thing with disconnection. The face is lagged and wide open, and complex maneuvers are needed to square it up. This is a huge, huge difference. Which way is going to deliver maximum power with consistency to the back of the ball?

 

This is my explanation of what Ballard is describing in his video. As it pertains to your interest in radius, I would net out that if the elbows fold radius changes but that if they fold in the Ballard way - connection - the radius re-forms automatically in such a way that there has been no effect on the angle of the club face. I hope that these comments get at the spirit of what were asking, overkill and all, grin.

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Hinging at the elbows, is different than folding the elbows to the point you lose width which is disconnection. This is perfect position below, but you don’t want to continue folding past this point otherwise your top of backswing position will be too narrow, unathletic and disconnected.

 

Abrams folding video should be removed from youtube by JB. If it isnt correct Bc gives Ballard a seriously bad interpretation of the hinge.

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I am in agreement with coiling into the right side, I am using Stenson move back as my model. My difficulty is having the butt down and erect spine. I need more tilt and wrist break too, than text book JB. But releasing the right side (high right shoulder), and covering the left arm immediately after impact, Yes and yes, just like Stenson.

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Hinging at the elbows, is different than folding the elbows to the point you lose width which is disconnection. This is perfect position below, but you don’t want to continue folding past this point otherwise your top of backswing position will be too narrow, unathletic and disconnected.

 

Abrams folding video should be removed from youtube by JB. If it isnt correct Bc gives Ballard a seriously bad interpretation of the hinge.

 

Agree completely. That just looks terrible and nothing like a golf swing.

Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
Bobby: I play because I love it.
Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.

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VHarness thoughts?

 

The fact that he doesn’t sell it on his website is all I need to know.

 

Just stick a head over under your left armpit.

Walter: Tell me Bobby, why do you play this game?
Bobby: I play because I love it.
Walter: Well I play for the money. I have to win. That is why every time we face each other I will always beat you.

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In theory the V-Harness is good, but at the very top of the backswing it doesn’t let the club fall in correctly for me.

 

What Ballard is talking about at minute 4:30 pretty much describes why Calvin Peete was such a great ball striker too. I’ll ask JB, but I’m not too sure if the radius can’t be measured from center to the ground or center to the butt of the club.

 

I do know that you want a soft left arm, not a collapsed left arm.

 

It is paramount for the distance btw the sternum and butt of club to maintain its distance thru the WHOLE swing. JB mentions uniqueness btw players but that one fundy is foundational thru all his teachings. The confusion comes in my mind how to incorporate hinging of elbow w/o disturbing this distance. Over exaggerating the hinge isnt what JB teaches nor seen in any players. Vardon is closest but even though he folds 90 deg at elbow there is a radius btwn sternum and butt maintained.

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In theory the V-Harness is good, but at the very top of the backswing it doesn’t let the club fall in correctly for me.

 

What Ballard is talking about at minute 4:30 pretty much describes why Calvin Peete was such a great ball striker too. I’ll ask JB, but I’m not too sure if the radius can’t be measured from center to the ground or center to the butt of the club.

 

I do know that you want a soft left arm, not a collapsed left arm.

 

 

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Here is the article from 1996 that JJ is referring to, I have a copy of it too....

 

Love that article. I wish we had ANY film of Jim Colbert swing. Ironic that the guy who epitimizes Ballards method cannot be found anywhere on youtube showing these fundaments.

 

Does anyone have links to Colbert swing?

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So I finally received The Swing Shirt yesterday.

https://www.amazon.c...duct/B00ICM5BH0

 

 

I can read or get lessons about where the arms are / put them on the body.....but 3 swing with the shirt on really made everything click.

Going to take a little time to get the feeling ingrained.

 

On a side note.....I dont know if I will wear it out in public on the course / range....seems risky lol

 

I,ve never tried the swing shirt. There are a lot of devices available to achieve the same thing. Two that come to mind are The Smart Ball (Martin Chuck) and IZZO band. I received the IZZO as a bonus item when I ordered my Swingyde "knock off" (China). It works very well and consists of two loops of wide stretch belt (kind of like an ACE Bandage but much stronger). It helps keep your arms in place and centered preventing a chicken wing. Another I remember from years ago by CJ Goeks was a device that was a rod with C Shaped brackets on the ends that you had to push together to keep in place.

"Non rinunciare mai quello
che desideri...."
Go with what you know!

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