Jump to content

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 1.4k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I loved this topic on the other site

 

Thx for posting

 

Fan of the high right side .. mix in straight rt arm going back and magic can happen ... for me anyways


Ping G400 Max 10.5* Fubuki K 60x : Ping G400 5w 16.5* Blueboard 63x
Ping G400 7w 19.5* Blueboard 73x : Callaway Apex '16 4h 23* Fubuki 82x

Callaway Apex CF16 5i AD DI 85x  :  6i - PW Recoil Prototype 95 f4
Vokey SM2 50*  Vokey SM2 TVD 54*m & 59*m DG s400 Onyx

Callaway ‘19 PM Grind 64* DG s400 Onyx ~~ Piretti Matera Elite
 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

That is the most swing thoughts I have ever seen in one place. On the flip side, you have the 'see your target, hit the ball' proponents. Different strokes for different folks. I would freeze with all that in my head. These days I focus on delivering a square clubface at impact, and not much else.

That is the most swing thoughts I have ever seen in one place. On the flip side, you have the 'see your target, hit the ball' proponents. Different strokes for different folks. I would freeze with all that in my head. These days I focus on delivering a square clubface at impact, and not much else.

 

Those are not swing thoughts, they are a break down of 23 years of notes from lessons.

 

Still, how many, or how do you determine which ones you are going to download before each shot?

 

And, believe me, I could identify most of those just from self discovery over 25 years, but I think I have grooved a fundamentally sound swing over those decades (I have been told by my club pros), so now I just try to control the clubface and let the A, B, Cs of mechanics follow along for the ride...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Those aren't swing thoughts to me, but by golly that's a pretty accurate description of what is going on, ideally, with my golf swing. Turns out I've got a lot more Ballard in me than I realized!

Your problem is LOFT -- Lack of friggin' talent!
_____________________________________

TM RBZ Black 12°

Cobra Baffler Rail F 15.5°/20°

TM '09 Rescue 25°

TM Burner Plus 6-AW

TM Z Spin 56°

Rossa Tourismo 3 Counterbalanced

Link to post
Share on other sites

Speedster, as to your comments about Annika in the second item of Downswing, and your March 14, 2018 note, have you seen this video of Annika:

 

 

I use the Ballard method, and my biggest problem is getting my weight forward. Annika is doing this by looking at the target right away, it seems to be the initiator of her downswing and it really gets her placet moving (and anybody who takes the Ballard method seriously has to love just about everything she is doing in the video).

 

Did Ballard give you any drills to stop you from hanging back? Gary Player walk through is from Ballard, supposedly, and it helps. Another one is what Johnny Miller calls his best tip ever, where he concentrates on returning his left shoulder to the address position - probably didn’t come from Ballard. I only pay attention to tips that are consistent with what Ballard teaches, and this one from Miller is one of them. Was hanging back an issue for you?

 

 

The comments here in response to what you wrote, that there are too many things to be aware of, seem unsound to me.. When I am going to make a right turn in my car I have to properly perform an entire series of mental and physical steps. I have to decide that I am going to turn at the next intersection, I have to move my left hand to the turn signal lever, I have to push up on the lever with a finger, I have to time the initiation of the turn to just the right moment, and on, and on, and on. Obviously I had to consciously think about these actions at one time. But once I had them down they passed from my conscious processes to my unconscious, and now I don’t think about these steps when I make a right turn.. Isn’t it obvious that these things that you have listed are the same way? You learn them, you groove them, and they pass out of conscious thought, and your mind is free to focus on whatever swing thought you are working with at the moment. It is only when things go off the rails that you have to go back through the list, item by item, to find the problem. And isn’t this what we want from an instructor, which is to say, being told the correct things to perform? I think the fact that Ballard tells the student every detail of the swing is a huge advantage for the serious student who wants to improve.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Speedster, as to your comments about Annika in the second item of Downswing, and your March 14, 2018 note, have you seen this video of Annika:

 

 

I use the Ballard method, and my biggest problem is getting my weight forward. Annika is doing this by looking at the target right away, it seems to be the initiator of her downswing and it really gets her placet moving (and anybody who takes the Ballard method seriously has to love just about everything she is doing in the video).

 

Did Ballard give you any drills to stop you from hanging back? Gary Player walk through is from Ballard, supposedly, and it helps. Another one is what Johnny Miller calls his best tip ever, where he concentrates on returning his left shoulder to the address position - probably didn’t come from Ballard. I only pay attention to tips that are consistent with what Ballard teaches, and this one from Miller is one of them. Was hanging back an issue for you?

 

 

The comments here in response to what you wrote, that there are too many things to be aware of, seem unsound to me.. When I am going to make a right turn in my car I have to properly perform an entire series of mental and physical steps. I have to decide that I am going to turn at the next intersection, I have to move my left hand to the turn signal lever, I have to push up on the lever with a finger, I have to time the initiation of the turn to just the right moment, and on, and on, and on. Obviously I had to consciously think about these actions at one time. But once I had them down they passed from my conscious processes to my unconscious, and now I don’t think about these steps when I make a right turn.. Isn’t it obvious that these things that you have listed are the same way? You learn them, you groove them, and they pass out of conscious thought, and your mind is free to focus on whatever swing thought you are working with at the moment. It is only when things go off the rails that you have to go back through the list, item by item, to find the problem. And isn’t this what we want from an instructor, which is to say, being told the correct things to perform? I think the fact that Ballard tells the student every detail of the swing is a huge advantage for the serious student who wants to improve.

 

You make a good point. As I said I have also stumbled upon most of these thoughts, but I wanted to make it clear that I no longer think of any of them as they have become inherent. And as you said, when things go awry, it is good to have them at my disposal to set things right. But they have become part of the background for the most part. I just focus on making square contact, I guess while all 140 of those thoughts run on autopilot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

-Let the eyes release to the target faster on the downswing.

 

This is good when examining Annika and Duval. When asked they will tell you the reason why they release their head is because in many other sports the last thing the eyes do is acquire the target- like shooting a free throw, the focus goes from the ball and us to the target: the rim.

 

But they left out one other important thing, peripheral vision. Ever sit in your car at a stop light when a car on the side of you moves and you feel like your car moves and it startles you into some kind of physical or emotional response! Our peripheral vision field is quite acute to motion. In our downswing when the club enters our peripheral field and our subconscious senses we are out of positional sequence to task compensations can start to occur.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I posted something similar to this about 15 years ago under the name Tiburon on another golf message board. Over the last 15 years I have updated it as I went so I wanted to post my recent version. This is not a post to discuss whether Jimmy is right or not, I don't argue the golf swing because I know what works for me and only me. Enjoy!

 

I started working with Jimmy Ballard in 1995, but in the mid 1980's I did spend time with one of his assistants. I also worked with Claude Harmon (Butch Harmon's father) in 1980-1982. Also also have worked with Butch and quite a bit with one of Butches assistants named Shawn Callahan who has taught under Butch since 1997. Believe it or not, but Butch actually compliments Ballard quite a bit if you ever talk to him about other golf teachers.

 

Below are notes I took from many, many hours of lessons with Jimmy over the last 23 years. Recently I have been spending quite a bit of time with again again now that he left Ocean Reef Club and moved 20 minutes away from me. Below are my notes that I started back in 1995 to simplify my understanding of how I worked on swinging the club:

 

SET-UP

 

-Feet with the driver should be atleast shoulder width apart.

-The right foot is turned in; the left foot is flared out 45*, but keep the hips square.

-A straight back at address promotes a level, less around swing. Drill: put the club behind the ball, then look at your caddy in front of you while taking your stance, then lower the eyes to ball (gets rid of the hunched look)! Weight lifters position for posture.

-My a** should feel under me like I holding something heavy. Sticking the butt out kills the legs.

-In the grip, both hands oppose each other in a neutral position.

-The ball is a few inches inside the left heel for full shots.

-The chin should be up, and the chest high.

-The shoulders should be level at address with the left arm connected (short left arm at address).

-The left arm points down at a address, not at the target.

-The right arm should be above my left at address, not tucked under.

-Both knees are braced in at address.

-At address, the arms form a triangle with the butt end pointed at the middle of the chest bone.

-Measure to the ball at address by hovering the club just above the grass.

 

BACKSWING

 

-On the backswing there is a loading of the weight into the inside of right foot and leg. Get the right hip to the wall, instead of moving away from the wall.

-Coil the left shoulder behind the ball. Turning the right foot in towards the target helps keeps the right leg braced.

-The left arm should be bent and feel short the entire swing.

-The thumbs both feel like they are under the shaft at the top of the swing.

-The club works straight back (not around) with no forearm rotation. The triangle formed by the arms remains intact with the butt end still pointing at the chest bone.

-No angles set or cocking of the wrists and the toe should be down at the top of the backswing.

-The left hip and left shoulder all get behind an imaginary line drawn up from the ball.

-Maintain a short left arm on the backswing (connection).

-The right shoulder works up, not around.

-The right wrist is flatter, not cupped. This helps keep the club in front of the body the entire swing.

-The left heel comes up, and the left knee points behind the ball.

-Keep the same amount of flex in my right knee from address to the top of the backswing.

 

DOWNSWING

 

-The right side stays high at the start of the downswing. Split grip practice swings to help get this feel.

-The hips and shoulders work level through impact with the eyes releasing to the target (aka. Annika, who Jimmy thinks has the most sound swing in golf!)

-If the head stays down and still through impact, there will be a hang back in your finish...REVERSE C!

-The only cocking in the swing "feels" like it is done by the elbows, not the wrists.

-Both elbows "feel" like they point down to the ground on the backswing, downswing, and when you finish.

-The left thumb and elbow work like you're "thumbing a ride" through impact. Don't get separation between the arms, this leads to a blocked position.

-The elbows should finsih close together with a full body release. For good measure this can be exaggerated when making practice swings.

-Finish with the right shoulder where the left shoulder was. The weight should finish on the left toes, not the heel which leads to spinning out.

-The finish mirrors the backswing.

-The weight finishes on the left toes. When you go to your toe you’re not going to hook it, it will help you to swing down the line!

-In the finish, the shoulders, eyes, and hips are all level and the player should finish at full height with the club in front of the body and no weight on the right foot.

-Feel light in the right side at the finish.

 

 

November 9, 2017

 

-Turn my right foot in to help me load my right side back to the wall with no sway.

-Stand more with my a** under me at address.

-Feel like the right side stays high on the downswing. Make two split hand practice swings before each shot to get this feel.

-Work on feeling like I am maintaining my levels, especially on the downswing.

 

December 1, 2017

 

-Feel like I am hitting a knock down.

-Both elbows point down and spring the shaft while keeping the right side high.

 

December 19, 2017

 

-Don't let the left knee lock on the through swing, instead keep the flex in my left knee and finish with the weight on my left toe.

-Work on holding my balance until the ball lands.

-Practice with two alignment rods 6 feet in front and 2 feet apart and hit balls through them like they are a doorway. This drill gets the right side high and the upper body on top at impact and through the ball.

-Widen my stance a little more and flare my left foot out about 45*, but don't let the flared foot open my hips too much. Pinch my knees in and grip the ground with my legs.

 

March 14, 2018

 

-Let the eyes release to the target faster on the downswing.

 

Wow!

TaylorMade Kingdom M4 9.5* Red 5S stiff Atmos 44.5”
TaylorMade M4 3HL 16.5* fairway stiff Atmos
TaylorMade M4 3 hybrid stiff Atmos
TaylorMade M4 4 hybrid stiff Atmos
PING G410 5-U w/DG 105s
Callaway Apex CF19  5-A w/KBS $-Taper 120
Cleveland RTX 54*
Cleveland RTX 58*
Seemore si5, si3 and Directed Force 2.0
Garmin g6/Precision Pro Nx7 Pro slope
http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/838786-cwings-witb-2013/
https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1580770/recaps-the-taylormade-twistfaceexperience-7-golfwrx-members-visit-the-kingdom-for-an-exclusive-m3/p1

Link to post
Share on other sites

I started golfing about 12 months ago and started the Ballard swing 2 months ago from Bill Abrams (what an awesome teacher).

 

The swing, when I get it to work, it tremendous. Very effortless and powerful.

 

My issues are....

Getting the weight forward

Sometimes I hit before the ball (fat)

Sometimes I hit on off the toe of the club

Hook shots

Slices (driver only)

 

Not too many thinned shots since I started using this method. I am about a 22 handicap.

 

If anyone has any tips, I would appreciate them.

 

The biggest thing for me consistency wise is to get the left shoulder behind the ball (with the left arm connected and using my body to start the backswing) and also getting to the front toe area. Sometimes I cant get to the toe area and the weight goes to my front heel instead.......Bill told me that will lead to cutting across the ball (hooks & slices with driver). For some reason though - I just cant get that weight consistently to the proper spot.

 

 

97speedster - awesome write-up. Everything you wrote applies to me too :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I started golfing about 12 months ago and started the Ballard swing 2 months ago from Bill Abrams (what an awesome teacher).

 

The swing, when I get it to work, it tremendous. Very effortless and powerful.

 

My issues are....

Getting the weight forward

Sometimes I hit before the ball (fat)

Sometimes I hit on off the toe of the club

Hook shots

Slices (driver only)

 

Not too many thinned shots since I started using this method. I am about a 22 handicap.

 

If anyone has any tips, I would appreciate them.

 

The biggest thing for me consistency wise is to get the left shoulder behind the ball (with the left arm connected and using my body to start the backswing) and also getting to the front toe area. Sometimes I cant get to the toe area and the weight goes to my front heel instead.......Bill told me that will lead to cutting across the ball (hooks & slices with driver). For some reason though - I just cant get that weight consistently to the proper spot.

 

 

97speedster - awesome write-up. Everything you wrote applies to me too :)

 

I had a lesson with Abrams, he's very good, and sent me a video. Most of the lesson was just hitting short punch type shots with the body only, virtually no arm swing. He's in Chicago when weather gets warmer. I'd suggest you see Ballard himself or another Ballard instructor in FL, I think there are a few others in FL besides Jimmy, in fact I've heard of folks calling Ballard for a name of an instructor. This method will require time to master, but you are lucky, sounds like as a newbie to golf you don't have an ingrained swing like myself at the time I went to see Abrams. It's a lot harder to change after years of a different swing style. Just my opinion.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I started golfing about 12 months ago and started the Ballard swing 2 months ago from Bill Abrams (what an awesome teacher).

 

The swing, when I get it to work, it tremendous. Very effortless and powerful.

 

My issues are....

Getting the weight forward

Sometimes I hit before the ball (fat)

Sometimes I hit on off the toe of the club

Hook shots

Slices (driver only)

 

Not too many thinned shots since I started using this method. I am about a 22 handicap.

 

If anyone has any tips, I would appreciate them.

 

The biggest thing for me consistency wise is to get the left shoulder behind the ball (with the left arm connected and using my body to start the backswing) and also getting to the front toe area. Sometimes I cant get to the toe area and the weight goes to my front heel instead.......Bill told me that will lead to cutting across the ball (hooks & slices with driver). For some reason though - I just cant get that weight consistently to the proper spot.

 

 

97speedster - awesome write-up. Everything you wrote applies to me too :)

 

Yeah, “getting on top of the ball” is Ballardese for getting your weight off the back foot, as opposed to “staying behind the ball”, which is a no-no in this method.

 

I asked Speedster if Ballard has a drill for helping with this. You can read his reply, above. I haven’t tried it yet, but I am going to.

 

The classic is the drill that Ballard is said to have given to Gary Player, the walk-through:

 

 

This drill is easy. Anybody who can walk can do it, grin. Do it and you will not hit hooks and weak fades.

 

So, what is happening here? When I am having problems and do this drill, the first thing that I notice is faulty movement of my back hip - I am bumping it or dipping it, and it rocks too much, rather than turning. You can see the difference in this video, near the end when Ballard talks about his “best tip ever”, with Hogan and the cigarette and the club on the hip thing:

 

 

Swing thoughts are a personal thing. As Ballard says, they teach the same thing to all players, but everybody feels it differently. You might try thinking of keeping your back hip high on the downswing, that might be a useful swing thought. Hal Sutton, who worked with Ballard, really likes this thought. Ballard himself uses the image of throwing something heavy, two hands underhanded, like a medicine ball. I like this one a lot. Imagine having a medicine ball or a sack of something very heavy, and you have to heave it as far as you can to your left (or right if you are left handed). Your elbows are on your body, pointed at the ground, your legs are under you and you are not leaning over. You heave it forward by shifting your weight from one side to the other. If you rock your hips, the weight isn't going to go very far. Keep that back hip high and you have real power.

 

And if you can’t solve it on your own you are at least fortunate to have a Ballard-trained instructor near you. Good luck!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

torbill, some people say that her head looking up pre-impact is NOT a move she purposefully makes but a RESULT of her strong move through the ball. Same with David Duvall, he had that big time. Just saw Todd Hamilton at the Champions Senior event in At;Fanta, he had the same dynamic.

 

I might be wrong...but food for thought.

 

To speedster (OP), I admire your passion and commitment. I really do.

TM M2 driver (2016)
TM M2 3 and 5 woods (2017)
PXG 19 degree
Mizuno MP 25, 4-9 (about to change)
Miura CB-57 PW
Miura wedges, 53 and 59, Y grind
1964/5 Wilson 8813

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it a cause or an effect?

 

Early on, I was taught to watch my divots form. What terrible advice. It encouraged me to hang back. With the Ballard method I never see the divot form, and I never see the club hit the ball. Releasing of the eyes seems to be fundamental to the method, but not something that I have ever heard Ballard comment on, or heard that he teaches. So, for me it has been an effect, just something that happens.

 

Some of what Annika does with her eyes and head is striking. The video that I linked, above, is extreme, and it made me think that she doing this on purpose, that it is a cause for her and not an effect. Speedster, you are confirming that this is the case, at least in part. And I can see what you mean with Duvall and anti-hooking because turning the head early tends to pull the body forward and eliminate a flip. (The other video that I linked, the one with Johnny Miller, shows his way to avoid the hook, which is to think about putting the lead shoulder back to the address position. Same effect, it pulls the body forward, it gets the weight shifting hard off the back side.)

 

Check out the way that these guys are swinging, starting at about the 11 minute mark of the video:

 

 

It makes me think that Ballard is teaching this as a cause, and it isn’t something that just happens, but I don’t know...

 

I am looking for ways to start my body reliably moving forward, with the correct motion. It feels so effortless, and right, in my living room, to start the downswing by releasing my eyes. (The world will never know how many perfect swing thoughts were invented in my living room, yeah right...).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Speedster, You are seeing Ballard this weekend. You rascal. I am SO JEALOUS!! ;-)

 

The closest I ever got to him was a few years ago, when a son-in-law was starting golf, and I wanted him to do it right, so I wanted to get him Ballard’s book. Well, the book was out of print at the time and eBay was showing used ones at about $250, and I wasn’t about to let go of my copy of the book. So I called down there and got ahold of his wife. She said, sure, they would send me a copy, new, for the retail price of about fifty bucks, whatever. I asked if she thought that she could get Jimmy to write a message in the book. “Sure, what do you think that it should say?” So I told her, and soon I had a book with a personal inscription.

 

I know that Ballard is a genuinely nice human being, as I know a former tour pro worked with him, and he just loves Ballard as a person, not to mention the great help that he got. Obviously, you are lucky to know him..

 

I wish that you would tell him a couple of things for me, if it fits the conversation: I am going to be 74 in a couple of weeks. I was lost in the confusion of golf instruction for decades, literally, as a result of all of the bad instruction that is pervasive in golf. Very early on, in the early 1980s as I can best recall, Ballard was a pretty big name in golf instruction and was on the outs with the teaching establishment because they claimed (wrongly) that he taught a sway. I bought his book, got a grainy VHS tape of his swing basics, tried the method, failed, and moved on to more confusion. It took me a long long long time to realize that a lot of what is conventionally taught is things that can either be done only by a 25 year old tour professional, or that will hurt my body, or that defy the laws of physics. I remembered Ballard, and went back and reviewed the method. By this time I had a much better understanding of the golf swing, and I realized that my first pass with the method was at a time when I didn’t understand basic principles, I didn’t understand what Ballard was trying to teach me, and I didn’t study the method closely. The second time through I realized that I blew it the first time around, and I really applied myself.

 

I am a mechanical engineer by training, and I have an exceedingly good understanding of forces and motions (which is a lot more than I can for a lot of professional golf instructors, lol). Everything that Ballard teaches is in accordance with physical principles - everything. The thing that strikes me as being the biggest problem in golf is the upper body. Ballard knows this, obviously, but I think about the problem of the upper body in a way that I have never heard him discuss, as follows:

 

The arms have six joints. In automotive terminology, we have universal joints in the wrists, knuckle joints in the elbows, and universal joints in the shoulders - 6 joints, all told. When I am trying to get somebody to understand just how big a problem all these joints are, I ask him to stand with his back against a wall, holding a golf club in front of him. The entire body is now immobilized except for these 6 joints. Now I ask the person to waive the golf club around, using all of these joints freely. The number ways for the club face to move in unwanted directions is essentially infinite. This, to me, is the #1 problem that the golfer needs to manage.

 

Pros manage the problem, among other ways, through pure repetition. You can groove a swing that will put these joints in basic control through endless hours of focused practice (read, wear and tear on the body). And even the pros, in their quest for ever more distance, cannot control the process at times, especially under pressure.

 

I maintain that most amateurs have no chance with these swings that emphasize hard rotation of the body. Most amateurs would be better off if they found ways to minimize the movement of these joints, which is what so much of the Ballard swing is about. Put the elbows on the body and you have placed four of the six joints under good control - shoulders and elbows. Grip the club high up in the palm (rather than in the fingers, as Nicklaus and others favor), and you have minimized wrist inconsistency by placing the club nearer the pivot point (I would grip the club directly with my wrists, if that were physically possible, in order to get wrists out of the swing). Ballard teaches what it takes to get these joints under control, but I like my way of demonstrating the problem of these joints when I am trying to get a golfer to listen. I wonder if Ballard has thought about it in this manner.

 

The other thing is the success that I have had, and how much it has meant to me(!), and all Jimmy ever got out of it was the revenue from a book and a VHS tape. The most graphic way that I can state what it has meant to me is that I used to, on average, hook a ball out of play on average about every 27 holes. I walk the golf course, and late in the round my legs sometimes get tired, and when this happens I can get disconnected and flip the club. After committing to the Ballard method and getting most of it grooved, I do much better. I play about 90 rounds of golf every winter in Arizona. Last year I did not put a single ball out of play until the 18th hole of the final round that I played before heading north for the summer. And that only happened because I was screwing around with a new swing thought. The difference in the way that I get from tee to green has been incredible, and I owe 100% of it to Ballard’s videos that come up on YouTube and a lot of study and hard work on my own, to incorporate the principles. I think that Jimmy would like to know that there are people like me out there whose lives have been enormously affected by him, who he never met or knew existed. That, to my way of looking at it, has to be satisfying to a person like Ballard, who has subjected to so much unfair, inaccurate criticism over the years. Golf is an important deal in my life, and nobody comes close to the influence that Ballard has had on keeping me going and making me better.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

97 Speedster:

 

That is a super "tale from the trenches" of battle. Really appreciate it.

 

Did you have just one swing thought from Jimmy which you used under pressure that time?

 

Thanks, 97 Speedster.

TM M2 driver (2016)
TM M2 3 and 5 woods (2017)
PXG 19 degree
Mizuno MP 25, 4-9 (about to change)
Miura CB-57 PW
Miura wedges, 53 and 59, Y grind
1964/5 Wilson 8813

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...