Jimmy Ballard

[erikro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDy6VIQtqX8?si=kU1rWi8tS2POAFXD

[Ayersjj]

Norman always admired Curtis toe hang @ top 

 

 

Edited January 29 by Ayersjj

[mocokid]

On 10/25/2023 at 8:10 PM, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

I went back and read the first two pages and watched Annika’s swing. So simple. Why we don’t teach shifting into the trail leg more often does not make sense to me. You would see Ballard do a demonstration of this and he always really exaggerated the move. It’s never that drastic and I think Annika is the model.

Stenson is similar. 

[mocokid]

On 4/13/2018 at 5:00 PM, Cwing said:

 

Wow!

Ah those were the notes I was looking for. 

[bluedot]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:43 PM, mocokid said:

Stenson is similar. 

It’s not unusual to see really good players make this move as a swing trigger, no matter what sort of swing they employ, though not to the extent Stenson does.  With most, it’s a subtle pressure shift, rather than the exaggerated move Stenson makes.

 

I think there are two possible issues with this, and btw neither is really a valid criticism of Jimmy Ballard.  One is that it increases the possibility of a sway, or breaking the wall, which is a problem that a lot of us struggle with anyway, with or without that move.  
 

The other is that modern technology has helped us understand that elite ball strikers ALL recenter their bodies even BEFORE they complete the backswing, which enables a full release and avoids issues with early extension.  For NOT elite ball strikers, it’s just easier to do all of that from a “coil” into the trail instep and knee, rather than the Stenson shift move.

 

I think we always have to be careful about thinking that because an elite athlete does something and gets great results that it’s a good thing to do, and this becomes more true when a particular athlete is doing something that most other elite athletes do NOT do.  The Stenson move is that to me; if it was a great idea, more pros would do it, and they don’t. I think you COULD make the case that Stenson succeeds IN SPITE OF this rather than because of it…

 

I think the two things about Ballard’s teachings that are most misunderstood are the idea of a coil, which he DOES teach, rather than a sway, which he does NOT teach, and what he means by “connection” of the trail arm.  There ARE points on which Ballard is significantly different than most teachers, but not those two things.

[torbill]

I never thought about shift (Stenson) versus coil, good point.  Both get the weight shifted but in a different sort of a way. 

Ballard talks about coil a lot and covers it in numerous videos, so I think that we can all get a good sense of his teachings by watching youtube.

 

Connection of the right arm is a bit of a different story.  It can be confusing.  He has us set up with our elbows on our body.  He talks quite a lot about connection of the left elbow.   But how about the right arm?  Not a lot on the right arm as I recall the videos.  So we might conclude that the right elbow should stay on the body throughout the swing, which is definitely not what he wants.   For me, the most helpful discussion of what he wants is in his book, especially the pictures of Miller Barber:

https://holetheputt.com/jimmy-ballard-connection/

Edited November 25, 2023 by torbill

[vernon]

Good stuff!

[Boise59]

11 hours ago, torbill said:

I never thought about shift (Stenson) versus coil, good point.  Both get the weight shifted but in a different sort of a way. 

Ballard talks about coil a lot and covers it in numerous videos, so I think that we can all get a good sense of his teachings by watching youtube.

 

Connection of the right arm is a bit of a different story.  It can be confusing.  He has us set up with our elbows on our body.  He talks quite a lot about connection of the left elbow.   But how about the right arm?  Not a lot on the right arm as I recall the videos.  So we might conclude that the right elbow should stay on the body throughout the swing, which is definitely not what he wants.   For me, the most helpful discussion of what he wants is in his book, especially the pictures of Miller Barber:

https://holetheputt.com/jimmy-ballard-connection/

The right arm goes back and up.....

[bluedot]

12 hours ago, Boise59 said:

The right arm goes back and up.....

Correct, and that’s where the misunderstanding about “connection” comes from.  Ballard means that the trail arm moves like it would if an infielder were throwing a baseball, so the elbow goes back and up; in the book, he spends quite a bit of time explaining why this isn’t a flying elbow.  So for Ballard, losing connection means getting away from what he considers to be a powerful, athletic move with the trail arm.  
 

That movement of the trail arm and elbow is pretty different from what most golf instruction means when the term connection is used.  And that’s unfortunate, really, In understanding Ballard; I THINK he may have been using the term before it became popularized?  

[iacas]

34 minutes ago, bluedot said:

like it would if an infielder were throwing a baseball

 

Relative to where the sternum is pointing (i.e. straight out away from your chest), where does that put the trail upper arm? Sounds like if the sternum is pointing north, the upper arm is pointing somewhere east.

[bluedot]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Relative to where the sternum is pointing (i.e. straight out away from your chest), where does that put the trail upper arm? Sounds like if the sternum is pointing north, the upper arm is pointing somewhere east.

I think that’s a fair view of it, and I think that is one of the biggest differences between Ballard and “everybody else”.  
 

The vast majority of instructors work their students on the turn; internal rotation of the lead knee, some degree of hip turn, and something approaching 90* of shoulder turn on full swings.  I think it’s fair to say that if one takes a lesson from a Ballard instructor (I have, fwiw, in addition to reading the book) that is NOT going to be the focus of the lesson.

 

Thats not a value judgement on either Ballard or other instructors; I just think it’s perhaps THE critical difference.  And whether or not it is a correct Ballard swing, FOR ME there was a lot of timing involved in the Ballard stuff, which is ultimately why I had to abandon it after many, many years; I got old, and I wasn’t fast enough to save swings when my timing was off.  My good days and swings were still ok, but my bad days and swings became just awful.  I liked the Ballard method because it is very athletic; I abandoned it because I wasn’t the athlete in my 60’s that I was in my 40’s.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, bluedot said:

I think that’s a fair view of it, and I think that is one of the biggest differences between Ballard and “everybody else”.  
 

The vast majority of instructors work their students on the turn; internal rotation of the lead knee, some degree of hip turn, and something approaching 90* of shoulder turn on full swings.  I think it’s fair to say that if one takes a lesson from a Ballard instructor (I have, fwiw, in addition to reading the book) that is NOT going to be the focus of the lesson.

 

Thats not a value judgement on either Ballard or other instructors; I just think it’s perhaps THE critical difference.  And whether or not it is a correct Ballard swing, FOR ME there was a lot of timing involved in the Ballard stuff, which is ultimately why I had to abandon it after many, many years; I got old, and I wasn’t fast enough to save swings when my timing was off.  My good days and swings were still ok, but my bad days and swings became just awful.  I liked the Ballard method because it is very athletic; I abandoned it because I wasn’t the athlete in my 60’s that I was in my 40’s.

 

So, and not to belabor the point, as my "experience" with Ballard is almost limited to:

• along ago thinking he wanted a decent sized sway off the ball (convincingly corrected on this a little over a decade ago).
• "elbows down" on both sides of the ball.
• This bit here about letting the trail arm get much more "around" you.

I'm trying in asking the question above to determine just how much he didn't mind your trail upper arm getting "behind" or "beside" you (and consequently how far across your chest that pulls the lead arm).

 

I've watched some Curtis Strange swings (the newer ones are tough because he's also much older of course, so it's tough to know whether he's not turning back far/swinging his arms back far because of older age or what), but they're 2D and this stuff can look so different…

 

 

Even the poster frame there implies that Jimmy is okay (assuming CS is doing a very Jimmy-approved swing) with your trail elbow getting "around" or "behind" you some.

 

Ditto for Rocco, though he appears to lift and then "dive" the right elbow in a bit more than Curtis does.

 

 

So… Jimmy was fine with the trail elbow going a bit farther "around" and not staying "in front of the golfer's chest" more than others taught or teach currently? Is that a fair statement?

[bluedot]

50 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

So, and not to belabor the point, as my "experience" with Ballard is almost limited to:

• along ago thinking he wanted a decent sized sway off the ball (convincingly corrected on this a little over a decade ago).
• "elbows down" on both sides of the ball.
• This bit here about letting the trail arm get much more "around" you.

I'm trying in asking the question above to determine just how much he didn't mind your trail upper arm getting "behind" or "beside" you (and consequently how far across your chest that pulls the lead arm).

 

I've watched some Curtis Strange swings (the newer ones are tough because he's also much older of course, so it's tough to know whether he's not turning back far/swinging his arms back far because of older age or what), but they're 2D and this stuff can look so different…

 

 

Even the poster frame there implies that Jimmy is okay (assuming CS is doing a very Jimmy-approved swing) with your trail elbow getting "around" or "behind" you some.

 

Ditto for Rocco, though he appears to lift and then "dive" the right elbow in a bit more than Curtis does.

 

 

So… Jimmy was fine with the trail elbow going a bit farther "around" and not staying "in front of the golfer's chest" more than others taught or teach currently? Is that a fair statement?

Yes, I think that is a fair statement.  He’s not only fine with it, it’s a core teaching.

 

Get into a position from which a shortstop would throw to 1B, cocked and ready to throw.  That’s a Ballard “connected” trail arm, and that’s right out of the book.

[iacas]

3 hours ago, bluedot said:

Yes, I think that is a fair statement.  He’s not only fine with it, it’s a core teaching.

 

Get into a position from which a shortstop would throw to 1B, cocked and ready to throw.  That’s a Ballard “connected” trail arm, and that’s right out of the book.

 

Thank you.

[JBug]

Looking for a copy of JB’s early video with Jim Grant.  I think it was titled Jimmy Ballard’s Connection golf.  Any help would be appreciated.

 

JBug

[Boise59]

So question....how many of you have actually taken lessons from Jimmy and if so how long ago?

[bluedot]

14 hours ago, Boise59 said:

So question....how many of you have actually taken lessons from Jimmy and if so how long ago?

I have not; I never had that opportunity.  I have worked with two instructors recommended by Ballard’s office, one in GA for many years, and one in NC.  Both were excellent, and very faithful to Ballard’s teachings in the book, which I had used for years before I worked with either one of them.

 

The guy in GA could ALWAYS fix me when things went haywire; I finally abandoned the Ballard stuff after a long, long time (at age 67) when I was mired in a long period of terrible inconsistency and did an “emergency” trip to GA and a 2 hour session with him that didn’t work.  I was still having some decent rounds, but almost no really good ones, and my bad rounds were just awful.  I just couldn’t maintain any sort of timing; I believe pretty deeply now that the Ballard swing is VERY athletic, BUT is far more timing-dependent than most modern instruction requires.  
 

After 6+ months of that, I finally went in a different direction, did a full rebuild over the next winter, and at 71 I’m playing the best golf of my life.  Again, that is NOT a knock on Ballard; I won a club championship playing that way.  It’s totally MY OWN experience.

Edited November 29, 2023 by bluedot

[Boise59]

8 hours ago, bluedot said:

I have not; I never had that opportunity.  I have worked with two instructors recommended by Ballard’s office, one in GA for many years, and one in NC.  Both were excellent, and very faithful to Ballard’s teachings in the book, which I had used for years before I worked with either one of them.

 

The guy in GA could ALWAYS fix me when things went haywire; I finally abandoned the Ballard stuff after a long, long time (at age 67) when I was mired in a long period of terrible inconsistency and did an “emergency” trip to GA and a 2 hour session with him that didn’t work.  I was still having some decent rounds, but almost no really good ones, and my bad rounds were just awful.  I just couldn’t maintain any sort of timing; I believe pretty deeply now that the Ballard swing is VERY athletic, BUT is far more timing-dependent than most modern instruction requires.  
 

After 6+ months of that, I finally went in a different direction, did a full rebuild over the next winter, and at 71 I’m playing the best golf of my life.  Again, that is NOT a knock on Ballard; I won a club championship playing that way.  It’s totally MY OWN experience.

I get where you are coming from, but I'd disagree....the Ballard swing while athletic in nature is the easiest to repeat especially late in life. Btw I'm 64 and playing the best golf of my life....

[Nels55]

21 minutes ago, Boise59 said:

I get where you are coming from, but I'd disagree....the Ballard swing while athletic in nature is the easiest to repeat especially late in life. Btw I'm 64 and playing the best golf of my life....

 

It's the easiest swing for you to repeat.  It is not necessarily the easiest swing for someone else to repeat.  For instance Grant Waite.  Grant has the most efficient swing measured by Dr. Kwon:

Different golfers do better with different setups, grips, and movement patterns.  There is no swing method that is universally easiest.

[Boise59]

Just now, Nels55 said:

 

It's the easiest swing for you to repeat.  It is not necessarily the easiest swing for someone else to repeat.  For instance Grant Waite.  Grant has the most efficient swing measured by Dr. Kwon:

Different golfers do better with different setups, grips, and movement patterns.  There is no swing method that is universally easiest.

Actually it is the easiest for me to repeat and for my students, who by and large are not great athletes. It's also the simplest and easy to understand.

[Boise59]

32 minutes ago, Boise59 said:

Actually it is the easiest for me to repeat and for my students, who by and large are not great athletes. It's also the simplest and easy to understand.

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Boise59

[torbill]

On 11/28/2023 at 1:54 PM, JBug said:

Looking for a copy of JB’s early video with Jim Grant.  I think it was titled Jimmy Ballard’s Connection golf.  Any help would be appreciated.

 

JBug

 

Several here have inquired, including me.  No luck so far.

[torbill]

I haven’t taken a lesson from Ballard or a Ballard teacher.  I never lived near one so far as I knew.  What I know about the method is based on Ballard’s book and various videos.  Not an easy path, but I felt that I had to do something different.  My back had been giving me problems for years, I was getting older, it was obvious that muscles and hard rotation were not going to take me the rest of the way.  

My experience is different from Bluedot’s.  What I find is that as time goes on I tend to drift away, or not emphasize, basic Ballard principles as well as I should.  When I realize what’s happened I go back to the basics and always find a problem with my technique. Since I am on my own it takes me a long time to realize what’s happening, and react.  This happened over the last year.  My handicap drifted up from 7 to 8-1/2.  I suppose that I thought that it was due to creeping old age but in reality it was technique - time to dig out the book and the videos. Now I’m back to 7.1 and want to get down well into the 6’s by spring.  So, whereas Bluedot’s solution was to find a better method for him, my solution has been to do the Ballard method better when I drift away.

 

What I like about this method is that my back is much happier, even as I get older - I now think that my back is going to last for the duration, knock on wood.  I’m going to be 80 on my next birthday, old age is upon me, sigh.  Yet I can still play good golf.  One of the key reasons is, that I can still get the ball out there far enough from the regular tees to hit all GIR - the day I can’t do this good golf is over.  I attribute adequate distance and control to the method - I would argue that connection and weight shift as a viable way of propelling a golf ball will be with us later in life than strong muscles.

[JBug]

On 9/24/2023 at 8:26 PM, Lefty Adams said:

I was able to get the original video JB made with Jim Grant, and it has Jim for about 15 minutes with JB explaining his principles as Jim swings. I burned on to a disc and can transfer some of it on here. But it may take me a week or so, as I have a busy week. But I will do it. Grant's swing was all-Ballard. He was low-am at the Masters in 66 (Nicklaus's third win). 

Lefty,  Is that the video entitled Jimmy Ballard Golf Connection?  If so I would love to get a copy.

[Ayersjj]

On 11/29/2023 at 8:46 AM, bluedot said:

I have not; I never had that opportunity.  I have worked with two instructors recommended by Ballard’s office, one in GA for many years, and one in NC.  Both were excellent, and very faithful to Ballard’s teachings in the book, which I had used for years before I worked with either one of them.

 

The guy in GA could ALWAYS fix me when things went haywire; I finally abandoned the Ballard stuff after a long, long time (at age 67) when I was mired in a long period of terrible inconsistency and did an “emergency” trip to GA and a 2 hour session with him that didn’t work.  I was still having some decent rounds, but almost no really good ones, and my bad rounds were just awful.  I just couldn’t maintain any sort of timing; I believe pretty deeply now that the Ballard swing is VERY athletic, BUT is far more timing-dependent than most modern instruction requires.  
 

After 6+ months of that, I finally went in a different direction, did a full rebuild over the next winter, and at 71 I’m playing the best golf of my life.  Again, that is NOT a knock on Ballard; I won a club championship playing that way.  It’s totally MY  

Rocco Is all Ballard and has plenty of speed

Edited April 9 by Ayersjj

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

Did Ballard ever mention anything about the right shoulder squaring the club? I tend to get ‘under’ by dropping my right shoulder, hands will get high and out at impact. When I feel the right shoulder stay higher my hands are lower and I swing more around. Just curious what his thoughts were on this particular part of the swing.

[BigEx44]

On 11/29/2023 at 8:46 AM, bluedot said:

I have not; I never had that opportunity.  I have worked with two instructors recommended by Ballard’s office, one in GA for many years, and one in NC.  Both were excellent, and very faithful to Ballard’s teachings in the book, which I had used for years before I worked with either one of them.

 

The guy in GA could ALWAYS fix me when things went haywire; I finally abandoned the Ballard stuff after a long, long time (at age 67) when I was mired in a long period of terrible inconsistency and did an “emergency” trip to GA and a 2 hour session with him that didn’t work.  I was still having some decent rounds, but almost no really good ones, and my bad rounds were just awful.  I just couldn’t maintain any sort of timing; I believe pretty deeply now that the Ballard swing is VERY athletic, BUT is far more timing-dependent than most modern instruction requires.  
 

After 6+ months of that, I finally went in a different direction, did a full rebuild over the next winter, and at 71 I’m playing the best golf of my life.  Again, that is NOT a knock on Ballard; I won a club championship playing that way.  It’s totally MY OWN experience.

Can you describe the main differences in how you're swing now versus your Ballard swing?

I'm asking because despite reading a bunch of posts on the Ballard swing, and watching some of his video's - I'm not convinced I truly understood how his swing differs from others.

[bluedot]

17 minutes ago, BigEx44 said:

Can you describe the main differences in how you're swing now versus your Ballard swing?

I'm asking because despite reading a bunch of posts on the Ballard swing, and watching some of his video's - I'm not convinced I truly understood how his swing differs from others.

Some of the differences may be more about semantics and “points of emphasis” than the swing itself, but here goes.

 

The biggest difference would be the arms, I think.  My lead arm is higher than the trail arm at address, and then (hopefully) stays higher in the backswing, which puts the club more or less on the same plane as my shoulders at the top.  It also puts the right elbow much lower than what I did with the Ballard swing.  The feeling, when I make a good swing, is that I have a lot more room for the backswing, and that I’m not only deeper, but that I can swing as fast as I want to.  

 

The other different emphasis with what I do now is on turning; internal rotation of the lead hip, full turn of the lead shoulder, trail hip moving up and back.  
 

I’ve said this multiple times in this thread, but I’ll say it again; none of this should be read as a knock on Ballard.  I played that way for nearly 40 years, and well enough to win a club championship.  But it just stopped working for me, and I needed to change.  Without question, I’m longer and more consistent now than I was 4 years ago when I undertook the rebuild, and at 71 that’s more than unusual.  I’ll also add that I’ve been fortunate to be able to do this with two VERY good teaching pros; I think trying to do it on my own would have been disastrous.

[Ayersjj]

 Peeps leave this method bc they dont know how to execute the basic fundamental of connection. 
 

Flash speed is not what JB advocates. Rather a controlled springing of the shaft equal inner pull and outer push of centrifugal force.

 

When  a senior player says he needs speed and leaves this method hes simply failed at achieving that basic fundamental of connection. 💀
 

Period

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2gjIf9NMIB/?igsh=MWgydTkxNGw3NDNiNA==

Edited April 9 by Ayersjj

[golftech]

Having personally seen DeWitt Weaver working with Ballard (and DeWitt worked with Sam Byrd before Ballard), I’ve seen incredible power with controlled connection.  Plus the swing ages well having played with Byrd in his early 70’s.  He had such impressive control of the ball and spin even then.  
 

I was on the longer side during my junior and college competitive days, but once I started working with Ballard I actually got longer.  The reason for this was that connection with my larger muscles gave me added control.  The result was straighter ball flight and confidence with go harder at drives.  Plus I had no problem hitting high trajectory throughout the bag.