Jimmy Ballard

[Nels55]

Jimmy Ballard.  I have 5 hours of Jimmy and the 7 common denominators that I recorded on VHS many years ago.  I also have his book "How to perfect your golf swing".  I read the book and watched the videos many times.  Never could get it though.  Just didn't work for me as I understood it LOL.  I am sure that in person lessons would have been a lot better. 

"Artie Mac Nickle" 

"Pro golfers are atha letes".  Ahh, the good old days!

 

 

There are a lot of theories out there about different swing types being better for different golfers, I guess that Jimmy would be a glider per Mike Adams.  Maybe I simply don't fit the method.  Don't know!

[Ayersjj]

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Jimmy Ballard.  I have 5 hours of Jimmy and the 7 common denominators that I recorded on VHS many years ago.  I also have his book "How to perfect your golf swing".  I read the book and watched the videos many times.  Never could get it though.  Just didn't work for me as I understood it LOL.  I am sure that in person lessons would have been a lot better. 

"Artie Mac Nickle" 

"Pro golfers are atha letes".  Ahh, the good old days!

 

 

There are a lot of theories out there about different swing types being better for different golfers, I guess that Jimmy would be a glider per Mike Adams.  Maybe I simply don't fit the method.  Don't know!

A few of us here have spent time w Jimmy in a live personal lesson and on a phone after video tape. I go back to 1987 and always felt sitting on the range w Jimmy was the most productive no doubt. 

[torbill]

6 hours ago, Ayersjj said:

Hal Sutton basically throwing Ballard technique under the bus. Claims Ballards load into the right hip possibly cause his hip problems. Ironically Ballard told me Hal struggled with a reverse not loading enough. What Sutton is now promoting sounds “twisty” which is more stress on the hip joints  than Ballard ever taught him. Boy, when one gets off track in their golf swing they really go off the rails. Not surprised Sutton struggled in his comeback journey on senior tour w twisty hips and arm extension per the article.  Ballard helped him come out of his funk in 2000s. Seems pretty petty of him to trash his old swing sayn nobody swings the way he did. Wonder if he ever thought his unique technique is what catapulted him to being the straightest driver of the ball for years. Natural talent goes just so far imo. 

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/hal-sutton-players-championship-1983-2023-golf-swing-analysis

 

I remember hearing Ballard once, when he said that he didn’t expect a lot from players he worked with, other than the recognition of who had give them some help, that this was the lifeblood of any teacher.  With no accompanying explanation, the message I got from that statement was the some of the players he worked with had very big egos and were reluctant to believe that anybody other than themselves was responsible.  Sounds as though Sutton may be one of these people.

I think the blame he places on lack of hip rotation is hollow, for a couple of reasons.  First, “everybody is/was doing it” in the sense that the X-factor type of swing has long been common.  I see no evidence that these sorts of players have a higher incidence of hip problems. X-factor stuff creates enormous torsional stress on the lower spine, and that’s exactly where we see the problems emerge.  Hips?  Not so much.  Second, in all of the Ballard instruction I’ve ever come across, I can’t think of a single time where he taught what Sutton’s hips are (not) doing.  He always seemed to be promoting things other than hips, such as connection, large muscle control, weight shift, etc.   I don’t know what Sutton thinks Ballard taught him about hips, but I’ve seen Ballard stuff going back 40 years and never once got the impression that he wants us to have Sutton’s hips.  

[golfer07840]

On 1/6/2023 at 8:10 PM, ggpro said:

Here's a couple of modern players who move a lot laterally, they're pretty good

Every pro moves off the ball slightly. The difference is they start moving to their front side before they are

even done with their backswings. Also, they don't actually shift "weight". They shift pressure. And yes there's a difference. 

 

Weight would insinuate body mass moving. That's not what's happening in the modern swing. This has all  been measured via 3D GEARS technology. 

 

Also notice that the 3 examples above, all allow their right hip to turn towards the target. There is no bracing of the right leg. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by golfer07840

[torbill]

4 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

Every pro moves off the ball slightly. The difference is they start moving to their front side before they are

even done with their backswings. Also, they don't actually shift "weight". They shift pressure. And yes there's a difference. 

 

Weight would insinuate body mass moving. That's not what's happening in the modern swing. This has all  been measured via 3D GEARS technology. 

 

Also notice that the 3 examples above, all allow their right hip to turn towards the target. There is no bracing of the right leg. 

 

Ridiculous.  Of course there is a weight shift in all three of those players.  The approximate center of gravity/mass at address is at the center of the sternum, and in each of the three cases that point is shifted away from the target at the top.  It doesn’t matter if “they start moving to their front side before they are even done with their backswings”.  If the center has moved back for a single instant there has been a weight shift, and that’s just the basic physics of kinematics and kinetics.  I have a couple of degrees in mechanical engineering from a major university and I do know something about forces and motions.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

Every pro moves off the ball slightly. The difference is they start moving to their front side before they are

even done with their backswings. Also, they don't actually shift "weight". They shift pressure. And yes there's a difference.

 

No, their weight shifts too. Even if all they did was make a perfectly centered turn, their arms go back, ergo… weight shift.

 

But they also move their bodies a bit toward the trail side, too.

5 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

Weight would insinuate body mass moving. That's not what's happening in the modern swing. This has all  been measured via 3D GEARS technology.

 

I have a GEARS: the mass shifts to the trail side early in the backswing in almost every PGA or LPGA Tour player in the system.

[Boise59]

2 hours ago, torbill said:

 

Ridiculous.  Of course there is a weight shift in all three of those players.  The approximate center of gravity/mass at address is at the center of the sternum, and in each of the three cases that point is shifted away from the target at the top.  It doesn’t matter if “they start moving to their front side before they are even done with their backswings”.  If the center has moved back for a single instant there has been a weight shift, and that’s just the basic physics of kinematics and kinetics.  I have a couple of degrees in mechanical engineering from a major university and I do know something about forces and motions.

This is the battle between the modern teacher and those of us who have been around a bit longer.
 

Have been to a ton of teaching seminars and no one has explained how to me how you get pressure w/o weight (ie a feather falling from the same height as a bowling ball).

 

I guess I’ve resigned myself to the fact that just as soon as one of these “modern” teachers produces as many major winners and tournament champions as Mr Ballard I may change my ideas ….but until then …..

[golfer07840]

2 hours ago, torbill said:

 

Ridiculous.  Of course there is a weight shift in all three of those players.  The approximate center of gravity/mass at address is at the center of the sternum, and in each of the three cases that point is shifted away from the target at the top.  It doesn’t matter if “they start moving to their front side before they are even done with their backswings”.  If the center has moved back for a single instant there has been a weight shift, and that’s just the basic physics of kinematics and kinetics.  I have a couple of degrees in mechanical engineering from a major university and I do know something about forces and motions

 

 

Smh...ok..

[TexasTurf]

40 minutes ago, ggpro said:

This is the battle between the modern teacher and those of us who have been around a bit longer.
 

Have been to a ton of teaching seminars and no one has explained how to me how you get pressure w/o weight (ie a feather falling from the same height as a bowling ball).

 

I guess I’ve resigned myself to the fact that just as soon as one of these “modern” teachers produces as many major winners and tournament champions as Mr Ballard I may change my ideas ….but until then …..

This is interesting. My biggest problem is I do everything in reverse. Naturally I move my center back by moving my pressure/weight forward. No pressure on my trail foot and I can move my sternum over it no problem.

[torbill]

56 minutes ago, ggpro said:

This is the battle between the modern teacher and those of us who have been around a bit longer.
 

Have been to a ton of teaching seminars and no one has explained how to me how you get pressure w/o weight (ie a feather falling from the same height as a bowling ball).

 

I guess I’ve resigned myself to the fact that just as soon as one of these “modern” teachers produces as many major winners and tournament champions as Mr Ballard I may change my ideas ….but until then …..

My comment was not so much a battle with the concepts of modern teaching versus Ballard.  It was more about what was stated and what is technically correct.  It is just not technically possible that the sternum can move away from the target without a weight transfer, and the sternum for these three players clearly moves away.  I also agree with iacas that even in pure rotation, where a point in the middle of the chest behind the sternum simply twists and does not shift back, that the arms and the weight of the club create a (significant) weight transfer.

I also agree with you that it’s a physics mystery (to me) how a pressure change in the feet can be accomplished without a weight transfer.  Yes, it may be momentary, but that doesn’t mean that there hasn’t been one.

I don’t disagree with golfer07840’s comment about (not) bracing the right leg.  Yes, technically there has to be a bracing, but when we coil our muscles in hard rotation I don’t think it’s a pronounced/conscious effort.  I think that the Ballard method with it’s emphasis on more lateral shift does require more of a conscious effort, and it’s in this sense that I understand his point.

I have no problem with what many of the modern players are doing - it’s not a good method for me and I think that some forms of it are hard on the back/knee/wholebody but, hey, there are many ways to skin a cat.  It’s just that we need to correctly represent what’s happening with the forces and motions in both sorts of methods, or we will create even more confusion than what’s already out there..  

[torbill]

36 minutes ago, TexasTurf said:

This is interesting. My biggest problem is I do everything in reverse. Naturally I move my center back by moving my pressure/weight forward. No pressure on my trail foot and I can move my sternum over it no problem.

 

I’m afraid that I don’t quite understand what you are saying here. 

[Ayersjj]

On 4/24/2023 at 10:32 PM, golfer07840 said:

Smh…ok..

On 4/24/2023 at 10:32 PM, golfer07840 said:

 

 

Smh...ok..

You can shake your head all you want but reality is Ballard has many more major Championship players in his hat than anyone here. 

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Ayersjj

[golfer07840]

9 hours ago, Ayersjj said:

You can shake your head all you want but reality is a flamingo has two legs but stand on one. 

 

Pros today pressure shift. Not move their body mass, nearly as much as Jimmy promoted. Nor do they push off their back foot to start the downswing. 

 

But you guys can stay stuck in the 80s and die on this hill. 

 

 

[golfer07840]

16 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

This is interesting. My biggest problem is I do everything in reverse. Naturally I move my center back by moving my pressure/weight forward. No pressure on my trail foot and I can move my sternum over it no problem.

You're going the stack and tilt way to pivot. 

 

Nothing wrong with that. But it's hard to generate any power from ground forces that way. There has to be pressure put into the ground with the trail foo, ever so briefly, then it transfers down into the ground into the front foot when you got flexion in transition and then all that power comes out of the ground at impact as you extend again. 

 

It's why you see guys like Justin Thomas, Scottie Scheffler and Jon Rahm practically on their toes just past impact, especially with driver. They are using the ground and launching the ball. 

 

Now to be fair to Jimmy, no way he would have known any of this since he didn't have the luxury of trackman, 3D video, pressure boards, etc. 

 

Jack Nicklaus used the ground in a similar way, but I doubt he actually understood the physics behind it the way they do today..

Edited April 25, 2023 by golfer07840
Clarity

[Ayersjj]

1 hour ago, golfer07840 said:

 

Pros today pressure shift. Not move their body mass, nearly as much as Jimmy promoted. Nor do they push off their back foot to start the downswing. 

 

But you guys can stay stuck in the 80s and die on this hill. 

 

 

[Boise59]

5 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

 

Pros today pressure shift. Not move their body mass, nearly as much as Jimmy promoted. Nor do they push off their back foot to start the downswing. 

 

But you guys can stay stuck in the 80s and die on this hill. 

 

 

Lol….go :14 seconds into this video and let’s see what the second greatest player of all time says…..

[iacas]

I didn't see Jack in that video. Also, feel ain't real.

[golfer07840]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

I didn't see Jack in that video. Also, feel ain't real.

 

[Ayersjj]

On 4/25/2023 at 10:51 PM, golfer07840 said:peeps “stuck in the 80s” your modern day twist  💀 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Ayersjj

[jonsnow]

On 4/25/2023 at 5:40 AM, Ayersjj said:

You can shake your head all you want but reality is a flamingo has two legs but stand on one. 

I'll see your flamingo stance & raise you one crane technique:

[Ayersjj]

18 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

I'll see your flamingo stance & raise you one crane technique:

Lmao I dont do the twist. I like to LoAD and move 😎

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Ayersjj

[Ayersjj]

On 4/25/2023 at 9:11 PM, iacas said:

I didn't see Jack in that video. Also, feel ain't real.

 modern swing is a twister move w shut clubface

Edited April 28, 2023 by Ayersjj

[torbill]

If we look at what Tiger is actually doing in the video it’s clear that he’s doing exactly what he feels and says he’s doing.  In this case feel = real.  

[torbill]

Still haven’t seen a technical explanation for how it is physically possible to have pressure shifting from one foot to the other in the absence of a weight transfer.

[golfer07840]

1 hour ago, torbill said:

Still haven’t seen a technical explanation for how it is physically possible to have pressure shifting from one foot to the other in the absence of a weight transfer.

Weight is mass. These guys aren't loading their mass into their right side. 

 

As for that picture, not sure who that is, what year it is, but that is a horrible swing. That looks like stack and tilt which was a horrible fad. Just ask Mike Weir. He went down the road and wasn't seen again for years.

 

Look at what Rory does, he does not move his entire body/mass into his right side. 

 

[torbill]

I agree on that swing - terrible. 😉

 

Rory.  Perfect example of heavy rotation and a “modern” swing.  Beautiful swing.  To analyze something like this we really would need a drone-level view.  From above, we would see that his body mass shifts slightly back.  Also, we would see his left knee break, which moves the center of mass of his knee slightly away from the target.  And his arms and club move strongly away.  All of these things create a shifting of the composite (torso/leg/arms/club) center of weight/mass.

Until somebody can explain to me with an analysis of the forces and motions how, starting from a state of static equilibrium, there can be change of pressure on a pressure plate without a shift in mass/weight I will claim impossible.  Actually, I will argue that the change of pressure is physical evidence that a weight transfer *occurred*.

 

The Ballard method shifts weight by a shift of the spine away from the target, easily visible from a straight on view.  Either method winds up the large muscles.  Older players like myself have to be careful of their backs, and we lack the strength to achieve decent distance through heavy rotation.  A big weight transfer has allowed me to swing with better distance and consistency without danger to my back.    
 

[Ayersjj]

14 minutes ago, torbill said:

I agree on that swing - terrible. 😉

 

Rory.  Perfect example of heavy rotation and a “modern” swing.  Beautiful swing.  To analyze something like this we really would need a drone-level view.  From above, we would see that his body mass shifts slightly back.  Also, we would see his left knee break, which moves the center of mass of his knee slightly away from the target.  And his arms and club move strongly away.  All of these things create a shifting of the composite (torso/leg/arms/club) center of weight/mass.

Until somebody can explain to me with an analysis of the forces and motions how, starting from a state of static equilibrium, there can be change of pressure on a pressure plate without a shift in mass/weight I will claim impossible.  Actually, I will argue that the change of pressure is physical evidence that a weight transfer *occurred*.

 

The Ballard method shifts weight by a shift of the spine away from the target, easily visible from a straight on view.  Either method winds up the large muscles.  Older players like myself have to be careful of their backs, and we lack the strength to achieve decent distance through heavy rotation.  A big weight transfer has allowed me to swing with better distance and consistency without danger to my back.    
 

Ditto. Well said

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Ayersjj said:

Can u “feel” this in ur right hip modern twister move? If not, patience. ☠️

 

Why do you keep posting old Aaron Baddeley photos?

 

6 hours ago, torbill said:

If we look at what Tiger is actually doing in the video it’s clear that he’s doing exactly what he feels and says he’s doing.  In this case feel = real.  

 

Uhhhhh…

 

4 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

Weight is mass. These guys aren't loading their mass into their right side.

 

 

Sure they are. As noted earlier, even if only their arms moved back… they're loading right. Rory shifts his pelvis between 1 and 2" on the backswing, and his ribs about 2" during the backswing. Early, too.

 

[Ayersjj]

On 4/26/2023 at 10:06 PM, iacas said:

 

Why do you keep posting old Aaron Baddeley photos?

 

 

Uhhhhh…

 

 

 

Sure they are. As noted earlier, even if only their arms moved back… they're loading right. Rory shifts his pelvis between 1 and 2" on the backswing, and his ribs about 2" during the backswing. Early, too.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Ayersjj

[torbill]

2 hours ago, torbill said:

I agree on that swing - terrible. 😉

 

Rory.  Perfect example of heavy rotation and a “modern” swing.  Beautiful swing.  To analyze something like this we really would need a drone-level view.  From above, we would see that his body mass shifts slightly back.  Also, we would see his left knee break, which moves the center of mass of his left leg slightly away from the target.  And his arms and club move strongly away.  All of these things create a shifting of the composite (torso/leg/arms/club) center of weight/mass.

Until somebody can explain to me with an analysis of the forces and motions how, starting from a state of static equilibrium, there can be change of pressure on a pressure plate without a shift in mass/weight I will claim impossible.  Actually, I will argue that the change of pressure is physical evidence that a weight transfer *occurred*.

 

The Ballard method shifts weight by a shift of the spine away from the target, easily visible from a straight on view.  Either method winds up the large muscles.  Older players like myself have to be careful of their backs, and we lack the strength to achieve decent distance through heavy rotation.  A big weight transfer has allowed me to swing with better distance and consistency without danger to my back.    
 

 

Oops, wouldn’t hurt to actually re-read what I wrote, which I just did.  Center of mass of *knee*?  How about center of mass of left leg, which we can see from the breaking away from the target of the knee.,  

Edited April 27, 2023 by torbill