Golf Course Architect

[birdiebeggar]

Curious to know people's tastes and preferences on current golf course architects.

 

If you were to have a current golf course architect help build your dream course who would it be and why?

[CMCSGolf]

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1223628-favorite-course-designer/

[Aleriooon]

Coore and Crenshaw, because they give the player a variety of holes and use the land to the fullest extent, without feeling like it's too man made. I like the golf course to feel like an extension of the surrounding landscape, and I think this duo could design a compelling course out of any piece of land given to them.

[Luke.Sutton]

http://www.mnuzzo.com

 

If you have to ask you have not seen Wolf Point...

[irvtrain]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

[Dancin]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

 

They always say that about C&C and Doak but it isn't completely true. While I don't agree that Common Ground is worthy of as high a ranking as they give it in CO, I doubt any other architect would have made as interesting a course as Doak did with the very boring old course and land that existed before the renovation. I think one reason it gets so high a ranking is anyone who had seen the old course would never believe you could make Common Ground out of that. As for C&C, Trinity Forest was a garbage dump, so not exactly prime property but they made a great course (which the PGA still managed to dial down to avoid offending any tour pros instead of letting the ball really run like it normally does for members).

[FairwayFred]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

 

LACC South isn't Hanse. He did restoration work there but the course is designed by George Thomas.

[FairwayFred]

http://www.mnuzzo.com

 

If you have to ask you have not seen Wolf Point...

 

I didn't really like Wolf Point all that much. I wanted to love it. Mike and Don are great guys. I love firm and fast golf. At the end of the day I thought the greens were just too much and the rest of the course was just not that exciting. Obviously I'd kill to have something like that in my backyard but on its own merits I didn't think the course was great.

[Luke.Sutton]

Being in someone’s backyard makes it more special for sure. I loved the greens and thought length was it’s only weakness

[irvtrain]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

 

LACC South isn't Hanse. He did restoration work there but the course is designed by George Thomas.

 

He did restoration on the more famous North course (2023 US Open). The South he remodeled 1, 2, 17, and 18. 3-16 on the other side of Wilshire Blvd are all his own design. It was completed in 2014.

[irvtrain]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

 

They always say that about C&C and Doak but it isn't completely true. While I don't agree that Common Ground is worthy of as high a ranking as they give it in CO, I doubt any other architect would have made as interesting a course as Doak did with the very boring old course and land that existed before the renovation. I think one reason it gets so high a ranking is anyone who had seen the old course would never believe you could make Common Ground out of that. As for C&C, Trinity Forest was a garbage dump, so not exactly prime property but they made a great course (which the PGA still managed to dial down to avoid offending any tour pros instead of letting the ball really run like it normally does for members).

 

I'll agree about those not being completely true but C&C courses always seem to be highly regarded right away. Common Ground is a good course for what was there no doubt, but yes, it shouldn't be highly regarded as it is. The US Mid-Am players will tear that course up during stroke play. It will be interesting to see how Colorado Golf Club holds up as they're still hoping to host a US Open. Not having played even half of his courses, I feel Doak's best work is Ballyneal.

[sabram]

http://www.mnuzzo.com

 

If you have to ask you have not seen Wolf Point...

 

Mike would be on my short list for sure, in partnership with Don Mahafey I'm a bigger fan of WP than Fairway Fred. There are so many good architects out there in addition to C&C, Doak and Hanse. Tom Weiskopf, Keith Foster and Bobby Weed have done a bunch of courses I've really liked. Bobby Weed is one of the most underappreciated GCA's out there. Some of the former and current associates at Renaissance would be on my list including Jim Urbina,Bruce Hepner, and the guys who worked on Stotan Brae. I love Ian Andrew's thought process about course architecture although I haven't seen his work first hand.I think Jeff Brauer would be a great person to work with and has done some great courses..Also Riley Johns and Keith Rhebb who recently did Winter Park. Dave Axland and Dan Proctor who did Wildhorse, Tripp Davis.who did Old American, the Tribute and Patricia Island.

[CMCSGolf]

Do you guys think the great modern architects are starting to become too similar to one another? Taken individually, almost any one of Doak, C&C, Kidd, Hanse, other minimalist architects... is very good, if not great. But when you look at them as a whole, they seem to have a very similar look that is beginning to bore me a little bit. I haven't been to Sand Valley yet, but I have a really good idea of what it will be like considering I have been to Barnbougle, Bandon, and Streamsong. Sometimes I wish there were more difference between them because they look and play so similar. On the other hand, they are almost all great courses in a style I like, so why ruin a good thing?

 

It is also true that hundreds of Scottish, Irish, and English links courses looks very similar and the sameness I see in modern courses is due to being on sandy sites. I certainly would not want any one to change a great Scottish links to look like something else just to be different.

 

I'm not sure this is really a problem or if there is a solution, but my desire to get to Sand Valley or Cabot is lessened because of how close they look to other modern greats. I'm sure I would love the courses if I went, but I can't help feeling that I have seen it before.

[Schley]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

 

They always say that about C&C and Doak but it isn't completely true. While I don't agree that Common Ground is worthy of as high a ranking as they give it in CO, I doubt any other architect would have made as interesting a course as Doak did with the very boring old course and land that existed before the renovation. I think one reason it gets so high a ranking is anyone who had seen the old course would never believe you could make Common Ground out of that. As for C&C, Trinity Forest was a garbage dump, so not exactly prime property but they made a great course (which the PGA still managed to dial down to avoid offending any tour pros instead of letting the ball really run like it normally does for members).

 

I'll agree about those not being completely true but C&C courses always seem to be highly regarded right away. Common Ground is a good course for what was there no doubt, but yes, it shouldn't be highly regarded as it is. The US Mid-Am players will tear that course up during stroke play. It will be interesting to see how Colorado Golf Club holds up as they're still hoping to host a US Open. Not having played even half of his courses, I feel Doak's best work is Ballyneal.

 

Playing ballyneal this summer and will report back. Tara iti is supposed to be otherworldly! Have to get down to New Zealand to play it.

[ATXHorn]

Do you guys think the great modern architects are starting to become too similar to one another? Taken individually, almost any one of Doak, C&C, Kidd, Hanse, other minimalist architects... is very good, if not great. But when you look at them as a whole, they seem to have a very similar look that is beginning to bore me a little bit. I haven't been to Sand Valley yet, but I have a really good idea of what it will be like considering I have been to Barnbougle, Bandon, and Streamsong. Sometimes I wish there were more difference between them because they look and play so similar. On the other hand, they are almost all great courses in a style I like, so why ruin a good thing?

 

It is also true that hundreds of Scottish, Irish, and English links courses looks very similar and the sameness I see in modern courses is due to being on sandy sites. I certainly would not want any one to change a great Scottish links to look like something else just to be different.

 

I'm not sure this is really a problem or if there is a solution, but my desire to get to Sand Valley or Cabot is lessened because of how close they look to other modern greats. I'm sure I would love the courses if I went, but I can't help feeling that I have seen it before.

 

I'm not going to waste a lot of time doing your research but one way to understand how good of work this new wave is doing is to look at the restorations these guys are doing, let alone new builds like Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Pac Dunes, Pikewood, Tara Iti, Nanea...or what this country really needs which are communal places like Common Ground, Winter Park or Goat Hill that anyone can affordably access. If Doak is able to move forward with Sharp Park, Oh Boy!!!

 

Marvelous restorations that once again justify rankings and reputations at CalClub, Meadow, Pasa, Bellair, Orchard Lake, LACC....Fun & challenging golf everyone can get around. Check out the aerials and how far this idiot clubs got away from the masterpieces created. Take a peek at how small the greens are at PB or Brookline vs what was built when created. Unfortunately a lot of guys who are still alive ruined a lot of good land across our country the last 50 years.

[CMCSGolf]

Do you guys think the great modern architects are starting to become too similar to one another? Taken individually, almost any one of Doak, C&C, Kidd, Hanse, other minimalist architects... is very good, if not great. But when you look at them as a whole, they seem to have a very similar look that is beginning to bore me a little bit. I haven't been to Sand Valley yet, but I have a really good idea of what it will be like considering I have been to Barnbougle, Bandon, and Streamsong. Sometimes I wish there were more difference between them because they look and play so similar. On the other hand, they are almost all great courses in a style I like, so why ruin a good thing?

 

It is also true that hundreds of Scottish, Irish, and English links courses looks very similar and the sameness I see in modern courses is due to being on sandy sites. I certainly would not want any one to change a great Scottish links to look like something else just to be different.

 

I'm not sure this is really a problem or if there is a solution, but my desire to get to Sand Valley or Cabot is lessened because of how close they look to other modern greats. I'm sure I would love the courses if I went, but I can't help feeling that I have seen it before.

 

I'm not going to waste a lot of time doing your research but one way to understand how good of work this new wave is doing is to look at the restorations these guys are doing, let alone new builds like Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Pac Dunes, Pikewood, Tara Iti, Nanea...or what this country really needs which are communal places like Common Ground, Winter Park or Goat Hill that anyone can affordably access. If Doak is able to move forward with Sharp Park, Oh Boy!!!

 

Marvelous restorations that once again justify rankings and reputations at CalClub, Meadow, Pasa, Bellair, Orchard Lake, LACC....Fun & challenging golf everyone can get around. Check out the aerials and how far this idiot clubs got away from the masterpieces created. Take a peek at how small the greens are at PB or Brookline vs what was built when created. Unfortunately a lot of guys who are still alive ruined a lot of good land across our country the last 50 years.

 

I agree the restorations are fantastic, but I think that is a different discussion. I've seen Moraine and Mid Pines, among others, and they are amazing. Winter Park and the great 9 hole courses like Sweetens and Sewanee are awesome for the game and there should be many more of them.

 

I'm talking about the original work that I think looks similar among the top few architects. Part of the reason new modern courses look so similar is that so few are built and the jobs keep going to the same guys. The remaining architects who take on the restorations are doing great things and maybe they would create something that looks different if ever given the chance.

[jwellefson1]

I'm gonna say Kyle Phillips, the guy really makes some cool courses. I know Kingsbarns gets mixed reviews, but it looks otherwordly and I am ashamed I didn't make it there while in St. Andrew's. Also, the guy made an imitation links in Abu Dhabi (Yas Links) and it gets absolute rave reviews! Definitely think he's talented. DMK is another one I really like, I liked the Castle Course more than most.

[raynorfan1]

Take a peek at how small the greens are at PB or Brookline vs what was built when created. Unfortunately a lot of guys who are still alive ruined a lot of good land across our country the last 50 years.

 

With the exception of #4 and the holes that have been eliminated/added, Brookline's greens have changed very little from the 1908 renovation of the course or William Flynn's 1927 work (with respect to the new holes built then). #11/9 also had a little shrinkage of an area on the left that was unpinnable (it's too steep), and now plays as tight collar (probably the same length grass as the entire green was designed for). #4 was intentionally changed to improve the strategic intent of the hole, which was required because of increasing driving distances (in the 1930s!).

 

There's a 1938 aerial photo comparison out there that shows basically the same footprint. The green shapes have changed a little bit over time, but in terms of overall size, they have always been among the smallest in the game. One of the interesting (to me) things about The Country Club is that it has no official architect of record, and has long had a policy of retaining a leading architect to make constant tweaks to the course (Ross/Flynn/Jones/Crenshaw/Hanse). It is probably the most organic golf course in the world except for the Old Course as a result.

 

Pebble, on the other hand, I'd love to see restored back to the 1930s aerials.

[raynorfan1]

I'm talking about the original work that I think looks similar among the top few architects. Part of the reason new modern courses look so similar is that so few are built and the jobs keep going to the same guys. The remaining architects who take on the restorations are doing great things and maybe they would create something that looks different if ever given the chance.

 

I think you're reacting to the on-line echo chamber and magazine editors. Tom Fazio, Greg Norman, and Arnold Palmer* are still designing plenty of courses that don't look like Ballyneal. They're just not getting the accolades/rankings that the "minimalist" crowd is getting.

 

*to be clear, in 2018, I obviously mean Arnold Palmer Design, the firm...not the man.

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

 

Counterpoint #1 Talking Stick Scottsdale AZ, and Trinity Forest to an extent.

 

Counterpoint 2 More of an estimated guess that they've turned down more properties than they've accepted. I think I posted in another thread that Nicklaus design during its prime run was "designing" more courses in a year than C&C had done in their careers up to the start of 2018

[TadWPJ]

http://www.mnuzzo.com

 

If you have to ask you have not seen Wolf Point...

 

Wolf Point is NLE. Could the course do 20,000 rounds if it wasn't an estate course? There is so much hype.

 

To answer the OP question- Andy Staples, Andrew Green, and a dark horse Colton Craig

[irvtrain]

I'm talking about the original work that I think looks similar among the top few architects. Part of the reason new modern courses look so similar is that so few are built and the jobs keep going to the same guys. The remaining architects who take on the restorations are doing great things and maybe they would create something that looks different if ever given the chance.

 

I think you're reacting to the on-line echo chamber and magazine editors. Tom Fazio, Greg Norman, and Arnold Palmer* are still designing plenty of courses that don't look like Ballyneal. They're just not getting the accolades/rankings that the "minimalist" crowd is getting.

 

*to be clear, in 2018, I obviously mean Arnold Palmer Design, the firm...not the man.

 

Norman's courses seem to be really really good. I've only played two as his work doesn't seem to be in the US. I've played Red Sky and Vidanta course in Nuevo Vallarta. I'm just guessing but his limited work might be because his fee is too much for most developers?

[irvtrain]

Right now, I like Gil Hanse. I love his very "playable" shot making yet difficult to score due to greens. Haven't played the Black course at Streamsong yet, but sounds like he may have gotten carried away there. His other courses I've played (Rustic Canyon, LACC South) are fantastic.

 

Coore and Crenshaw and Doak make instant gems. To be fair, they're hired for the best pieces of properties.

 

Counterpoint #1 Talking Stick Scottsdale AZ, and Trinity Forest to an extent.

 

Counterpoint 2 More of an estimated guess that they've turned down more properties than they've accepted. I think I posted in another thread that Nicklaus design during its prime run was "designing" more courses in a year than C&C had done in their careers up to the start of 2018

 

Fair enough. C&C will only take on two projects at a time. Growing up in the 90s, all of the new courses seemed to be Nicklaus or Palmer lol. Nicklaus courses can be good but he gets carried away with the pea shaped greens.

[hrmgolf72]

Soak. I want to have fun. not saying others dont design a fun course but his always delivers

[mbs_59]

I'm talking about the original work that I think looks similar among the top few architects. Part of the reason new modern courses look so similar is that so few are built and the jobs keep going to the same guys. The remaining architects who take on the restorations are doing great things and maybe they would create something that looks different if ever given the chance.

 

I think you're reacting to the on-line echo chamber and magazine editors. Tom Fazio, Greg Norman, and Arnold Palmer* are still designing plenty of courses that don't look like Ballyneal. They're just not getting the accolades/rankings that the "minimalist" crowd is getting.

 

*to be clear, in 2018, I obviously mean Arnold Palmer Design, the firm...not the man.

 

Norman's courses seem to be really really good. I've only played two as his work doesn't seem to be in the US. I've played Red Sky and Vidanta course in Nuevo Vallarta. I'm just guessing but his limited work might be because his fee is too much for most developers?

 

I love the Grove, outside of Nashville. Norman design opened I think 5 or 6 years ago. Didn't think I would care much for his designs but I love this course. Can't say that I've played any of his other tracks to my knowledge though.

[hybrid25]

I haven't heard too many comments about Jack Nicklaus courses, and frankly, I don't care for them too much. It seems to me that they cater more to the lower handicap accomplished players more so than the bogey golfer type. I just played a Jack Nicklaus design course and it really beat me up, and also other players even with lower handicaps than mine.

[irvtrain]

I haven't heard too many comments about Jack Nicklaus courses, and frankly, I don't care for them too much. It seems to me that they cater more to the lower handicap accomplished players more so than the bogey golfer type. I just played a Jack Nicklaus design course and it really beat me up, and also other players even with lower handicaps than mine.

 

Well you pretty much hit all the points on why most people don't like Nicklaus courses. He almost always makes them too difficult and the holes become redundant from design to design and he especially gets carried away with the pea shaped greens.