The golf ball is not a heavy weight...

[iteachgolf]

Ok, so a lacrosse stick and broom were both given as examples of levers. I found this demo of a basic lacrosse throw at about 1:30 to 1:45. Notice the split grip and also notice the handle end and basket part move in opposite directions during his move.

In a golf swing this is not what happens. In golf the handle and club head are moving in the same direction in a good swing.

As for the comment about changing perspective changing the results of ones efforts well it’s obvious if you change what you are trying to do with the club there s a good chance in change in results.

Maybe it is all semantics. I just think specific words make a difference.

The swing is simple to create and the rub is that we get so lost in its description and analysis that grown men and women often struggle with learning. Maybe it would not be a big deal to me had I not taken so long to kinda get it. Maybe just pointing out things that good golfers and pros just take for granted sometimes need to be specifically explained to people who do not know them.

In practice swinging a club can be very very simple. I am not saying that means the game is easy just that people often would be best off focusing on producing a swinging action before looking at all the advanced stuff and detail that goes into really putting in time and getting good.

 

Edit I think the internet has had a negative impact for many people who try to self diagnose. Far better to go ahead and get a lesson from one of the good guys here in person and shut the you tube white noise out.

Thanks for listening.

 

In a shot on goal in lacrosse with real speed it’s not done with a split grip.

 

 

 

And no in golf the handle and clubhead are often not moving in the same direction. In transition the handle works down while the clubhead works up. Hip high to impact the handle is moving up and in while the clubhead is moving down and out. You don’t understand what moves the club or how it moves in a good swing.

[thug the bunny]

This entire thread is an exercise in semantics.

 

And it is really teaching me a lot about the golf swing. Lots of useful information here...

[Hawkeye77]

This entire thread is an exercise in semantics.

 

And it is really teaching me a lot about the golf swing. Lots of useful information here...

 

No doubt, and Dan and some others know their stuff which is why there are some gems in here.

 

Having said that, it's pretty obvious it was and continues to be a trolling effort - however, it did have me recheck and affirm that I understand the definition of obtuse (not in the geometry context), so a bonus!

[glk]

This entire thread is an exercise in semantics.

 

And it is really teaching me a lot about the golf swing. Lots of useful information here...

 

No doubt, and Dan and some others know their stuff which is why there are some gems in here.

 

Having said that, it's pretty obvious it was and continues to be a trolling effort - however, it did have me recheck and affirm that I understand the definition of obtuse (not in the geometry context), so a bonus!

[jut111]

Ok, so a lacrosse stick and broom were both given as examples of levers. I found this demo of a basic lacrosse throw at about 1:30 to 1:45. Notice the split grip and also notice the handle end and basket part move in opposite directions during his move.

In a golf swing this is not what happens. In golf the handle and club head are moving in the same direction in a good swing.

As for the comment about changing perspective changing the results of ones efforts well it's obvious if you change what you are trying to do with the club there s a good chance in change in results.

Maybe it is all semantics. I just think specific words make a difference.

The swing is simple to create and the rub is that we get so lost in its description and analysis that grown men and women often struggle with learning. Maybe it would not be a big deal to me had I not taken so long to kinda get it. Maybe just pointing out things that good golfers and pros just take for granted sometimes need to be specifically explained to people who do not know them.

In practice swinging a club can be very very simple. I am not saying that means the game is easy just that people often would be best off focusing on producing a swinging action before looking at all the advanced stuff and detail that goes into really putting in time and getting good.

 

Edit I think the internet has had a negative impact for many people who try to self diagnose. Far better to go ahead and get a lesson from one of the good guys here in person and shut the you tube white noise out.

Thanks for listening.

 

If your handle and clubhead are moving in the same direction throughout the swing it is certainly not a good swing.

[Jasonic]

This entire thread is an exercise in semantics.

 

And it is really teaching me a lot about the golf swing. Lots of useful information here...

 

No doubt, and Dan and some others know their stuff which is why there are some gems in here.

 

Having said that, it's pretty obvious it was and continues to be a trolling effort - however, it did have me recheck and affirm that I understand the definition of obtuse (not in the geometry context), so a bonus!

 

In the hole for a month glk

[Swingman420]

Cpretty good lacrosse shooter here split grip

 

However he does look like he’s swinging even with the split grip.

 

I will conclude that I am technically in a grey area on this. Thanks I teach. I am not qualified to continue debating my point even though it does have merit.

 

For those of you trolling me for some reason thanks for contributing. Your posts have contributed to a quality discussion. Typical internet it’s to be expected strawmen attacks galore against simple honest truth.

[PorscheFan]

Cpretty good lacrosse shooter here split grip

 

However he does look like he’s swinging even with the split grip.

 

I will conclude that I am technically in a grey area on this. Thanks I teach. I am not qualified to continue debating my point even though it does have merit.

 

For those of you trolling me for some reason thanks for contributing. Your posts have contributed to a quality discussion. Typical internet it’s to be expected strawmen attacks galore against simple honest truth.

 

I dunno, man. You saw a post from another thread and seemed to 'rolleyes' the use of the term 'lever' in the golf swing.

 

You then started a spin-off thread, which makes complete sense, but you started with a pejorative and erroneous title and lead-in which presumed that others where crazies who were thinking about the swing all wrong:

 

'So why do so many treat it as such? There were a couple earlier posts regarding leverage which is a principle often used to move heavy things. How much does a

ball weigh?'

 

Nobody, but nobody, but nobody in either of these threads ever suggested that the reason they considered golf as a lever sport was because they thought that the gold ball was heavy and that the golf club needed to be treated as a class 1 lever. I think when you read lever that you interpreted it that way, but I think we've gotten to the point of articulating that that isn't the type of lever that we're talking about.

 

I think this thread has been useful and it's certainly aided in my understanding. I'm starting to believe that nobody on the Internet ever changes their minds regardless of the arguments presented to articulate a different point. I don't think there's a 'simple honest truth' that anyone is railing against. Many people simply don't agree with you.

 

I was hoping this would end with "You know what? I still don't believe that the golf club is a class 1 lever, but I've realized that nobody else thought it was either; nor did they ever consider the golf ball a heavy object. I see how it could be considered a class 3 lever. I'm still on the fence, but I've learned something"

 

Oh well, either way I think we've all expanded our knowledge and been challenged by some counter-points. Always valuable.

[Man_O_War]

how else would one swing in a circle with any speed? Can't be a straight arm/locked wrist with center of circle being left shoulder...there is just no speed in that. You need levers. wrist set, angles of ankles, knees , hips, shoulder sockets.. all add to leverage in a circle

[jekato]

Cpretty good lacrosse shooter here split grip

 

However he does look like he’s swinging even with the split grip.

 

I will conclude that I am technically in a grey area on this. Thanks I teach. I am not qualified to continue debating my point even though it does have merit.

 

For those of you trolling me for some reason thanks for contributing. Your posts have contributed to a quality discussion. Typical internet it’s to be expected strawmen attacks galore against simple honest truth.

 

I don't believe you are in a grey area at all, you're incorrect from the start, but it's a common misunderstanding for those who have not gone deep into the weeds on some of the more finer points about what happens inside the swing's momentum as it's experienced. In the other thread you said:

 

The shaft is a flexible medium not rigid. A crowbar is rigid.

 

The shaft compared to a string is very rigid. Flexible plastic pry bars are often used on delicate projects but function the same way as the iron beasts. So the process involved speaks more loudly at times than the material composition of the lever

[Hawkeye77]

This entire thread is an exercise in semantics.

 

And it is really teaching me a lot about the golf swing. Lots of useful information here...

 

No doubt, and Dan and some others know their stuff which is why there are some gems in here.

 

Having said that, it's pretty obvious it was and continues to be a trolling effort - however, it did have me recheck and affirm that I understand the definition of obtuse (not in the geometry context), so a bonus!

[media=]

[/media]

 

That brings up a whole "nuther" kind of lever discussion, lol!

[iteachgolf]

Cpretty good lacrosse shooter here split grip

 

However he does look like he’s swinging even with the split grip.

 

I will conclude that I am technically in a grey area on this. Thanks I teach. I am not qualified to continue debating my point even though it does have merit.

 

For those of you trolling me for some reason thanks for contributing. Your posts have contributed to a quality discussion. Typical internet it’s to be expected strawmen attacks galore against simple honest truth.

 

There’s no grey area. And if he were wearing lacrosse gloves they be essentially together. Did you miss the whole part about it being a series of levers is how the speed is created?

[Swingman420]

Iteach

Did you miss the part about angular momentum?

Linear momentum converting to rotational?

I guess my opinion is that momentum is an important facet of a swinging motion and although leverage can create circular motion most are better off avoiding the idea of levers altogether.

As Ernest Jones famously taught hands and clubhead. A swing motion is like a weight on a string swinging around the bodies cog.

Leverage is a different method entirely. Not saying that’s bad only different from a true swing.

[Krt22]

This is like having a conversation with someone who believes the earth is flat

 

The club is absolutely a lever. If you didn't c0ck your wrists and release and instead swung with your arms inline with the shaft you wouldn't hit the ball anywhere.

[jut111]

The weight on a string thing is a gross oversimplification of a golf swing. It might be.a great image for you but unless you have no wrists it’s an incomplete picture.

[Krt22]

This is a weight on a string

[Swingman420]

The pic above is an excellent image. More golf in that than a broom isn’t there?

It’s not store hold release. It’s similar to that but a true swing is faster more consistent and far less timing.

[Krt22]

Excellent if you are inherently wrong in the way you view the swing. Absolutely not closer to a real swing than a broom. The only time there is any parallel is at impact when you essentially have 2 point masses colliding, how it gets to impact is totally different. The differences start immediately in the take away

[iteachgolf]

Iteach

Did you miss the part about angular momentum?

Linear momentum converting to rotational?

I guess my opinion is that momentum is an important facet of a swinging motion and although leverage can create circular motion most are better off avoiding the idea of levers altogether.

As Ernest Jones famously taught hands and clubhead. A swing motion is like a weight on a string swinging around the bodies cog.

Leverage is a different method entirely. Not saying that’s bad only different from a true swing.

 

Again you don’t understand physics. Do you know what angular momentum is? Do you know it’s a product of the MOI and the angular velocity? Do you know that the MOI is exponentially affected by the radius. The definition of torque is that the angular velocity or the MOI is changing and therefore when you apply a torque to the lever you are increasing it’s angular momentum. The golf club as a lever is exactly what increases the angular momentum and produces the speed we can generate.

 

You should google moment arm and also research how torque relates to angular momentum. Angular momentum is literally all about leverage

[Swingman420]

Iteach,

This is the crux of the matter. All the information in the world is of no use for the average person learning to produce the correct swinging motion.

Ernest Jones wrote and I agree that one can only acquire the knack of the swinging motion through feel. He gave very simple examples of how to acquire it.

Looking at a golf swing-analysis of it-rehearsal of positions in slow motion-none of this is of any use before the individual can identify a swing by feel and tell the difference between that and a levering action. No one produces a perfect swing motion but that’s what ole EJ wrote that we should strive for.

Conservation of angular momentum happens in a good swing with a club by itself.

The force vectors in a swing motion applied by the hands are constantly changing. It’s circular motion.

 

I just harp because I see many people grunting and sweating on the range and I think to myself if they would only read Jones then they would at least understand the task.

Yes I understand physics fine but I know that one can understand way more than me and not be able to simply swing a club. Just making a point of posting in case others like me struggle with understanding at a fundamental level how to use a golf club.

[Krt22]

Harping to yourself and others something that is simply incorrect isn't going to help anyone understand the fundamentals of the golf swing either.

[Krt22]

Thanks for the PM Swingman, but I really don't appreciate being called a troll when I am simply engaging in the debate that you started. If you make a post, expect others to respond, just because other's don't agree with you doesn't mean they are trolling.

 

The golf ball is not a heavy weight, its a small ball that you hit with the slightly heavier club, the way to propel the ball further is with velocity. (m1v1=m2v2). The way you increase velocity is with acceleration. While it is certainly possible to accelerate a ball on a string, that is not what occurs in the golf swing which is mass attached to a stiff shaft. If you swung a ball on a string the same way you swing the club (ie with proper wrist c0ck and release) you simply would not see the same level of speed increase coming into impact

[iteachgolf]

Iteach,

This is the crux of the matter. All the information in the world is of no use for the average person learning to produce the correct swinging motion.

Ernest Jones wrote and I agree that one can only acquire the knack of the swinging motion through feel. He gave very simple examples of how to acquire it.

Looking at a golf swing-analysis of it-rehearsal of positions in slow motion-none of this is of any use before the individual can identify a swing by feel and tell the difference between that and a levering action. No one produces a perfect swing motion but that’s what ole EJ wrote that we should strive for.

Conservation of angular momentum happens in a good swing with a club by itself.

The force vectors in a swing motion applied by the hands are constantly changing. It’s circular motion.

 

I just harp because I see many people grunting and sweating on the range and I think to myself if they would only read Jones then they would at least understand the task.

Yes I understand physics fine but I know that one can understand way more than me and not be able to simply swing a club. Just making a point of posting in case others like me struggle with understanding at a fundamental level how to use a golf club.

 

If you understood physics you wouldn’t use angular momentum as a way to try and disprove that the golf club is a lever considering that angular momentum proves the golf club is a lever.

 

Conservation of angular momentum isn’t applicable to most parts of the golf swing because we are applying external torques to the club with our muscles. It’s not a closed system and external torques are being applied. Again you don’t understand the physics

[thug the bunny]

As a chemist, I went through 3 semesters of physics and understand Newtonian mechanics easily. Most of it is stupid simple (even though WRXers are making it convoluted). However, how does understanding angular momentum and the nature of levers and fulcrums aid the average golfer, or even advanced golfers in any way??? Might as well start talking about the chemical composition of urethane covers and butyl rubber cores of golf balls and and the nature of the steel grains in irons to aid golfers to get better...

 

Hit the F'ing ball!

[Swingman420]

Krt

You can’t fool me. But just so you know a true swing produces the most speed with the least effort.

 

Iteach, COAM applies if we are talking about swinging a club vs muscling it via leverage. It applies if one is swinging the club as described by Ernest Jones.

If someone is doing some bastardization of golf like a Homer Kelley straight line hit then that’s something else.

There’s no straight lines in the correct use of the tool ie a swing as defined by Ernest Jones.

 

[iteachgolf]

Krt

You can’t fool me. But just so you know a true swing produces the most speed with the least effort.

 

Iteach, COAM applies if we are talking about swinging a club vs muscling it via leverage. It applies if one is swinging the club as described by Ernest Jones.

If someone is doing some bastardization of golf like a Homer Kelley straight line hit then that’s something else.

There’s no straight lines in the correct use of the tool ie a swing as defined by Ernest Jones.

 

No COAM doesn’t apply because your muscles are doing work. There’s no such thing as a “true swing”. You think you’re right and you got it all figured out and refuse to even listen to anyone else.

 

You literally can’t swing a club without doing work so COAM doesn’t apply and the only way you can produce max speed with minimal effort is by effectively leveraging the club.

[Krt22]

Im not trying to fool you so I'm not sure what you are insinuating. So far you have not provided any data or evidence to support your claim, just pure conjecture. And I'm not sure what the difference between a "true" swing and a regular swing are, but the fastest swings don't have the least effort, the have the least WASTED effort. But either way that effort is exerted on a lever, not pulling a string (which is the only way to accelerate a ball on a string given the string can only act in a single direction)

[Mikey5e]

Put a couple dozen in your carry bag and see how heavy golf balls can be!

A golf cart is my lever?

[Swingman420]

This link discusses two different ways to hit in baseball.

https://www.batspeed.com/tf.html

One way involves swinging the bat-the other uses what I am calling leverage apparently. No expert on baseball here but seems like what I am saying.

The whip effect vs the pendulum effect is what they call it in the video of Rose. The whip effect is like some Gerry Hogan tripwire nonsense. Sure maybe some can do it with constant practice in golf but once you know how to utilize the pendulum effect it’s like riding a bike or walking. Every club driver to putter.

‘One basic swing’

 

CHAKA ITS FRIDAY

[PorscheFan]

But just so you know a true swing produces the most speed with the least effort.

 

Here are some guys with very fast swing speed using very little effort:

 

 

No wait; their ability to supply explosive power (which can be measured) coupled with their ability to efficiently transfer that power through correct sequencing (which can also be measured) produces superior ball speed.