PIN IN or PIN OUT??

[sui generis]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > >

> > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > >

> > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> >

> > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> >

> >

>

> So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

 

Thanks, but I don't need a study because I have no conclusion to defend. I like the 2019 Rule simply because it gives the players a choice.

[North Butte]

Anyone complaining about a Rule that lets them choose to continue exactly as before but gives other players the option of playing differently is just being a Grandpa Simpson.

 

If you choose to totally ignore the new Rule nobody is going to stop you. But that's not the complaint, the complaint is that you want everyone to be forced to go back to doing things your way because...OK, I'll admit...I'm a little stumped on the "because" part...

[dpb5031]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > > >

> > > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> > >

> > > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

>

> I'm confused.

>

> Do YOU leave the pin in when you putt? If so, then of course you haven't seen any improvement in pace. How could you, you're still pulling the pin like you always have?

 

I play a lot of golf, much of it tournament/competitive and always with enough on the line to mean something.

 

In my experience, which is pretty extensive from a relative perspective, the new rule has done little to nothing to impact pace of play. Personally, if the flagstick is already in, I'll leave it in on long(ish) putts that I previously would have had tended, or if I know one of my fellow competitors is going to want it in next (just to accommodate). Otherwise, I prefer the flagstick out.

 

I've played a lot of competitive as well as0 recreational golf since the rule change and have yet to play with a foursome with full consensus to leave it in. In tournaments, almost no one wants it in, and these are good players, typically scratch or better.

 

Anyway, I've witnessed absolutely no change in pace. Slow players are slow, and will continue to be slow, and fast players are fast. Being ready to hit the ball when it's your turn is the major factor, but honestly, we rarely have an issue and most of my rounds are 4 hours or less.

 

The only notable difference is damage to the hole from guys sticking their fat hands in to remove the ball with the stick in.

[North Butte]

Right you play with a bunch of people who were going to pull it out no matter what. They ain’t gonna speed up.

[sui generis]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > > > >

> > > > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> > > >

> > > > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

> >

> > I'm confused.

> >

> > Do YOU leave the pin in when you putt? If so, then of course you haven't seen any improvement in pace. How could you, you're still pulling the pin like you always have?

>

> I play a lot of golf, much of it tournament/competitive and always with enough on the line to mean something.

>

> In my experience, which is pretty extensive from a relative perspective, the new rule has done little to nothing to impact pace of play. Personally, if the flagstick is already in, I'll leave it in on long(ish) putts that I previously would have had tended, or if I know one of my fellow competitors is going to want it in next (just to accommodate). Otherwise, I prefer the flagstick out.

>

> I've played a lot of competitive as well as0 recreational golf since the rule change and have yet to play with a foursome with full consensus to leave it in. In tournaments, almost no one wants it in, and these are good players, typically scratch or better.

>

> Anyway, I've witnessed absolutely no change in pace. Slow players are slow, and will continue to be slow, and fast players are fast. Being ready to hit the ball when it's your turn is the major factor, but honestly, we rarely have an issue and most of my rounds are 4 hours or less.

>

> The only notable difference is damage to the hole from guys sticking their fat hands in to remove the ball with the stick in.

 

I am aware that you are a competitive player and I respect your point of view. There are other points of view, of course. Many less skilled players, for example seem to appreciate this change. Then, gasp, there are some who play for money on TV who avail themselves of the choice.

[dpb5031]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> > > > >

> > > > > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

> > >

> > > I'm confused.

> > >

> > > Do YOU leave the pin in when you putt? If so, then of course you haven't seen any improvement in pace. How could you, you're still pulling the pin like you always have?

> >

> > I play a lot of golf, much of it tournament/competitive and always with enough on the line to mean something.

> >

> > In my experience, which is pretty extensive from a relative perspective, the new rule has done little to nothing to impact pace of play. Personally, if the flagstick is already in, I'll leave it in on long(ish) putts that I previously would have had tended, or if I know one of my fellow competitors is going to want it in next (just to accommodate). Otherwise, I prefer the flagstick out.

> >

> > I've played a lot of competitive as well as0 recreational golf since the rule change and have yet to play with a foursome with full consensus to leave it in. In tournaments, almost no one wants it in, and these are good players, typically scratch or better.

> >

> > Anyway, I've witnessed absolutely no change in pace. Slow players are slow, and will continue to be slow, and fast players are fast. Being ready to hit the ball when it's your turn is the major factor, but honestly, we rarely have an issue and most of my rounds are 4 hours or less.

> >

> > The only notable difference is damage to the hole from guys sticking their fat hands in to remove the ball with the stick in.

>

> I am aware that you are a competitive player and I respect your point of view. There are other points of view, of course. Many less skilled players, for example seem to appreciate this change. Then, gasp, there are some who play for money on TV who avail themselves of the choice.

 

I dont care what anyone chooses to do as long as they keep pace and dont damage the edges of the hole.

[sui generis]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

> > > >

> > > > I'm confused.

> > > >

> > > > Do YOU leave the pin in when you putt? If so, then of course you haven't seen any improvement in pace. How could you, you're still pulling the pin like you always have?

> > >

> > > I play a lot of golf, much of it tournament/competitive and always with enough on the line to mean something.

> > >

> > > In my experience, which is pretty extensive from a relative perspective, the new rule has done little to nothing to impact pace of play. Personally, if the flagstick is already in, I'll leave it in on long(ish) putts that I previously would have had tended, or if I know one of my fellow competitors is going to want it in next (just to accommodate). Otherwise, I prefer the flagstick out.

> > >

> > > I've played a lot of competitive as well as0 recreational golf since the rule change and have yet to play with a foursome with full consensus to leave it in. In tournaments, almost no one wants it in, and these are good players, typically scratch or better.

> > >

> > > Anyway, I've witnessed absolutely no change in pace. Slow players are slow, and will continue to be slow, and fast players are fast. Being ready to hit the ball when it's your turn is the major factor, but honestly, we rarely have an issue and most of my rounds are 4 hours or less.

> > >

> > > The only notable difference is damage to the hole from guys sticking their fat hands in to remove the ball with the stick in.

> >

> > I am aware that you are a competitive player and I respect your point of view. There are other points of view, of course. Many less skilled players, for example seem to appreciate this change. Then, gasp, there are some who play for money on TV who avail themselves of the choice.

>

> **I dont care what anyone chooses** to do as long as they keep pace and dont damage the edges of the hole.

 

Well, that's a start.

 

One of my points of view is that of a referee. I see all kinds from Juniors, college players, highly skilled ams, and geezers. Most embrace the new option. As to hole damage, it exists but may be attributed to several other practices as well, such as careless flagstick replacement. Green damage from dropped flagsticks seems less.

[dpb5031]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm confused.

> > > > >

> > > > > Do YOU leave the pin in when you putt? If so, then of course you haven't seen any improvement in pace. How could you, you're still pulling the pin like you always have?

> > > >

> > > > I play a lot of golf, much of it tournament/competitive and always with enough on the line to mean something.

> > > >

> > > > In my experience, which is pretty extensive from a relative perspective, the new rule has done little to nothing to impact pace of play. Personally, if the flagstick is already in, I'll leave it in on long(ish) putts that I previously would have had tended, or if I know one of my fellow competitors is going to want it in next (just to accommodate). Otherwise, I prefer the flagstick out.

> > > >

> > > > I've played a lot of competitive as well as0 recreational golf since the rule change and have yet to play with a foursome with full consensus to leave it in. In tournaments, almost no one wants it in, and these are good players, typically scratch or better.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, I've witnessed absolutely no change in pace. Slow players are slow, and will continue to be slow, and fast players are fast. Being ready to hit the ball when it's your turn is the major factor, but honestly, we rarely have an issue and most of my rounds are 4 hours or less.

> > > >

> > > > The only notable difference is damage to the hole from guys sticking their fat hands in to remove the ball with the stick in.

> > >

> > > I am aware that you are a competitive player and I respect your point of view. There are other points of view, of course. Many less skilled players, for example seem to appreciate this change. Then, gasp, there are some who play for money on TV who avail themselves of the choice.

> >

> > **I dont care what anyone chooses** to do as long as they keep pace and dont damage the edges of the hole.

>

> Well, that's a start.

>

> One of my points of view is that of a referee. I see all kinds from Juniors, college players, highly skilled ams, and geezers. Most embrace the new option. As to hole damage, it exists but may be attributed to several other practices as well, such as careless flagstick replacement. Green damage from dropped flagsticks seems less.

 

I can only speak for myself and my experience. I've been vocal that I do not believe leaving it in is an advantage for score or pace. Based on my Amateur (state/county level) play it seems that most players still prefer it OUT. I do play with some guys (mostly higher caps than me) who prefer it in, and I'm happy to accommodate. That said, the change has done zero to improve pace based on my observation exactly because there is rarely a consensus to leave it in amongst an entire foursome, let alone the entire field of players on the course on any given day.

[sui generis]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm confused.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do YOU leave the pin in when you putt? If so, then of course you haven't seen any improvement in pace. How could you, you're still pulling the pin like you always have?

> > > > >

> > > > > I play a lot of golf, much of it tournament/competitive and always with enough on the line to mean something.

> > > > >

> > > > > In my experience, which is pretty extensive from a relative perspective, the new rule has done little to nothing to impact pace of play. Personally, if the flagstick is already in, I'll leave it in on long(ish) putts that I previously would have had tended, or if I know one of my fellow competitors is going to want it in next (just to accommodate). Otherwise, I prefer the flagstick out.

> > > > >

> > > > > I've played a lot of competitive as well as0 recreational golf since the rule change and have yet to play with a foursome with full consensus to leave it in. In tournaments, almost no one wants it in, and these are good players, typically scratch or better.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, I've witnessed absolutely no change in pace. Slow players are slow, and will continue to be slow, and fast players are fast. Being ready to hit the ball when it's your turn is the major factor, but honestly, we rarely have an issue and most of my rounds are 4 hours or less.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only notable difference is damage to the hole from guys sticking their fat hands in to remove the ball with the stick in.

> > > >

> > > > I am aware that you are a competitive player and I respect your point of view. There are other points of view, of course. Many less skilled players, for example seem to appreciate this change. Then, gasp, there are some who play for money on TV who avail themselves of the choice.

> > >

> > > **I dont care what anyone chooses** to do as long as they keep pace and dont damage the edges of the hole.

> >

> > Well, that's a start.

> >

> > One of my points of view is that of a referee. I see all kinds from Juniors, college players, highly skilled ams, and geezers. Most embrace the new option. As to hole damage, it exists but may be attributed to several other practices as well, such as careless flagstick replacement. Green damage from dropped flagsticks seems less.

>

> I can only speak for myself and my experience. I've been vocal that I do not believe leaving it in is an advantage for score or pace. Based on my Amateur (state/county level) play it seems that most players still prefer it OUT. I do play with some guys (mostly higher caps than me) who prefer it in, and I'm happy to accommodate. That said, the change has done zero to improve pace based on my observation exactly because there is rarely a consensus to leave it in amongst an entire foursome, let alone the entire field of players on the course on any given day.

 

So, no deleterious effects on golf and now everyone has a choice. I agree, good Rule change.

[dpb5031]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I love the argument that giving us an OPTION to play a little faster is "ill-advised" because it's only faster if we actually use the option.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > That's kind of like saying there shouldn't be a provisional ball rule since it only helps if you actually hit the provisional. Well, d'uh!

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Bad logic. **It's really only faster if the entire foursome agrees to leave it in.** Otherwise it's pretty much a wash.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I suspect there's no data to support your conclusion.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So maybe you should conduct a study and let us all know for certain. I've got over 100 rounds in this year. I've seen no improvement on pace, but I have seen the edges of the hole all f'ed up from guys retrieving the ball without removing the flagstick.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm confused.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do YOU leave the pin in when you putt? If so, then of course you haven't seen any improvement in pace. How could you, you're still pulling the pin like you always have?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I play a lot of golf, much of it tournament/competitive and always with enough on the line to mean something.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In my experience, which is pretty extensive from a relative perspective, the new rule has done little to nothing to impact pace of play. Personally, if the flagstick is already in, I'll leave it in on long(ish) putts that I previously would have had tended, or if I know one of my fellow competitors is going to want it in next (just to accommodate). Otherwise, I prefer the flagstick out.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I've played a lot of competitive as well as0 recreational golf since the rule change and have yet to play with a foursome with full consensus to leave it in. In tournaments, almost no one wants it in, and these are good players, typically scratch or better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anyway, I've witnessed absolutely no change in pace. Slow players are slow, and will continue to be slow, and fast players are fast. Being ready to hit the ball when it's your turn is the major factor, but honestly, we rarely have an issue and most of my rounds are 4 hours or less.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The only notable difference is damage to the hole from guys sticking their fat hands in to remove the ball with the stick in.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am aware that you are a competitive player and I respect your point of view. There are other points of view, of course. Many less skilled players, for example seem to appreciate this change. Then, gasp, there are some who play for money on TV who avail themselves of the choice.

> > > >

> > > > **I dont care what anyone chooses** to do as long as they keep pace and dont damage the edges of the hole.

> > >

> > > Well, that's a start.

> > >

> > > One of my points of view is that of a referee. I see all kinds from Juniors, college players, highly skilled ams, and geezers. Most embrace the new option. As to hole damage, it exists but may be attributed to several other practices as well, such as careless flagstick replacement. Green damage from dropped flagsticks seems less.

> >

> > I can only speak for myself and my experience. I've been vocal that I do not believe leaving it in is an advantage for score or pace. Based on my Amateur (state/county level) play it seems that most players still prefer it OUT. I do play with some guys (mostly higher caps than me) who prefer it in, and I'm happy to accommodate. That said, the change has done zero to improve pace based on my observation exactly because there is rarely a consensus to leave it in amongst an entire foursome, let alone the entire field of players on the course on any given day.

>

> So, no deleterious effects on golf and now everyone has a choice. I agree, good Rule change.

 

I'd call it "not bad." It really depends on the group if you're talking about pace. In terms of advantage v. disadvantage, I think it's pretty much a wash.

I'll admit I do find it mildly annoying having to replace the stick on a 6 footer for a 15 hc player who wants it in, then have to remove it for a a 2 hc who prefers it out for his 5 footer.

 

It is what it is though...

[dpb5031]

> @"North Butte" said:

> Right you play with a bunch of people who were going to pull it out no matter what. They ain’t gonna speed up.

 

Apparently you have a problem with comprehension. Go back and read what I actually wrote and try to leave your bias aside for a moment.

 

[chippa13]

I often pair up with strangers and I see consensus on leaving it in the majority of the time. It has been rare that someone wants it pulled and usually if that is the case then the whole group just goes along. It isn't a big deal either way and the jury is still out on whether in or out is more beneficial so just go with the group and be done with it.

[North Butte]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > Right you play with a bunch of people who were going to pull it out no matter what. They ain’t gonna speed up.

>

> Apparently you have a problem with comprehension. Go back and read what I actually wrote and try to leave your bias aside for a moment.

>

 

You're going around in circles. You keep saying it's a bad Rule that doesn't speed anything up. Then you say the groups you play with, by and large, opt not to use the option of leaving it in. So I point out that OF COURSE if you don't leave it in it's not going to save time.

 

Then you insist I don't understand and you repeat the same damn thing.

 

If the groups you played in never touched the flag, just left it in all the time like the groups I play with, there is no way that doesn't save time. Maybe a few seconds a hole but something. The reason you've seen no time saving is because you're still pulling the flag.

[dpb5031]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > Right you play with a bunch of people who were going to pull it out no matter what. They ain’t gonna speed up.

> >

> > Apparently you have a problem with comprehension. Go back and read what I actually wrote and try to leave your bias aside for a moment.

> >

>

> You're going around in circles. You keep saying it's a bad Rule that doesn't speed anything up. Then you say the groups you play with, by and large, opt not to use the option of leaving it in. So I point out that OF COURSE if you don't leave it in it's not going to save time.

>

> Then you insist I don't understand and you repeat the same **** thing.

>

> If the groups you played in never touched the flag, just left it in all the time like the groups I play with, there is no way that doesn't save time. Maybe a few seconds a hole but something. The reason you've seen no time saving is because you're still pulling the flag.

 

I cannot even imagine why you're arguing with me, and I have not gone round in circles. You are so consumed by your bias you've apparently lost all ability to be objective.

 

I don't think I've said it's a "bad"rule, but just in case I did, let me clarify. What I have said is that it's not speeding up play within my circles, and I have played a lot of golf since the rule change.

 

I play a decent amount of tournament golf, and otherwise in a large group with different foursomes each time out. Either way, I cannot control the rest of the foursome's preference with regard to pin in or out. I have to live with it. Are you suggesting I should tell a competitor what they should do with the flagstick?

 

What I've stated, and quite clearly, is that I've yet to play in a foursome where's there's been consensus. Therefore, it's "pin in, pin out, pin back in, sorry... please take it out again." I'm pretty sure I've acknowledged that the only way it really saves time is if the entire foursome chooses to leave it in? My point is, in my world, which I think is representative of many others, is that this just doesn't happen.

 

Now, if you play with the same foursome every time you tee it up and choose to leave it in for pace of play, God Bless you and thanks for moving along! As for me, that's not reality. Regardless of my opinion, I cannot control my competitors preference on the matter.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @ibradley said:

> > > > > I think that if everyone left the pin in all the time the game would be much faster. Faster is needed to keep golf from shrinking. For the good of the game leave the pin in. You quickly get used to it.

> > > >

> > > > Last time I checked low score wins and faster is rarely better. For the good of my game I think I will take the pin out or have it tended when I really care about score which is most of the time.

> > >

> > > And, isn't it lovely that you may play as you wish and so may others.

> >

> > Not really. It was an ill-advised change to address PoP which only works if everyone leaves the pin in all the time. It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread. The perfect passive-aggressive ploy to coerce folks to keep the flag in.

>

> ???

>

> Has anyone actually prevented you from pulling a flagstick out when you play? Where's the "coercion"?

>

> If you want to keep wasting time pulling the pin, nobody that I've ever met is going to stop you. So why do you object to the Rules giving the other 90% of us the ability to leave it in when we play?

>

> Yeah, it only saves time when somebody doesn't insist on pulling it out. But lots and lots of us play golf every day with everyone happily leaving it in. That's who the Rule was written for.

>

> But not to worry. I don't think the Rules are going to change to forbid you from continuing to waste time however you see fit. Including the alignment line (which I'll venture a guess you also do).

 

> @Newby said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread.

> What conflict? I haven't seen any between inners and outers

>

 

Folks who want the flag left in because it speeds up play if everyone leaves it in get annoyed with folks who want it out. That is conflict. Leaving it in all the time benefits the group via faster PoP. Pulling the flag only benefits the single person who is putting. This will generally be viewed by the group as selfish behaviour or a "waste of time". Hence conflict, passive-aggresive coercion, etc... .

[North Butte]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > @ibradley said:

> > > > > > I think that if everyone left the pin in all the time the game would be much faster. Faster is needed to keep golf from shrinking. For the good of the game leave the pin in. You quickly get used to it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Last time I checked low score wins and faster is rarely better. For the good of my game I think I will take the pin out or have it tended when I really care about score which is most of the time.

> > > >

> > > > And, isn't it lovely that you may play as you wish and so may others.

> > >

> > > Not really. It was an ill-advised change to address PoP which only works if everyone leaves the pin in all the time. It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread. The perfect passive-aggressive ploy to coerce folks to keep the flag in.

> >

> > ???

> >

> > Has anyone actually prevented you from pulling a flagstick out when you play? Where's the "coercion"?

> >

> > If you want to keep wasting time pulling the pin, nobody that I've ever met is going to stop you. So why do you object to the Rules giving the other 90% of us the ability to leave it in when we play?

> >

> > Yeah, it only saves time when somebody doesn't insist on pulling it out. But lots and lots of us play golf every day with everyone happily leaving it in. That's who the Rule was written for.

> >

> > But not to worry. I don't think the Rules are going to change to forbid you from continuing to waste time however you see fit. Including the alignment line (which I'll venture a guess you also do).

>

> > @Newby said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread.

> > What conflict? I haven't seen any between inners and outers

> >

>

> Folks who want the flag left in because it speeds up play if everyone leaves it in get annoyed with folks who want it out. That is conflict. Leaving it in all the time benefits the group via faster PoP. Pulling the flag only benefits the single person who is putting. This will generally be viewed by the group as selfish behaviour or a "waste of time". Hence conflict, passive-aggresive coercion, etc... .

 

No, it simply one person being selfish. Just like the alignment line or multiple practice swings or all the other stuff that golfers do because they think it is going to help them play better.

 

Every round of golf is filled with opportunities for each player to play quickly or to delay a few seconds (or more) to do some little thing or another allowed by the Rules. The new Rule has simply added pulling the flagstick as one of those options.

 

The groups I play with treat it *exactly* like fiddling with alignment lines or making multiple practice swings. It's not exactly welcomed but nobody is going to be told not to do it. The rest of us just tolerate it like any other slight delay while one person indulges a personal quirk.

 

If you do something that annoys people, you can either live with annoying them or you can change your behavior. The Rules of Golf are not your problem.

[sui generis]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > @ibradley said:

> > > > > > I think that if everyone left the pin in all the time the game would be much faster. Faster is needed to keep golf from shrinking. For the good of the game leave the pin in. You quickly get used to it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Last time I checked low score wins and faster is rarely better. For the good of my game I think I will take the pin out or have it tended when I really care about score which is most of the time.

> > > >

> > > > And, isn't it lovely that you may play as you wish and so may others.

> > >

> > > Not really. It was an ill-advised change to address PoP which only works if everyone leaves the pin in all the time. It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread. The perfect passive-aggressive ploy to coerce folks to keep the flag in.

> >

> > ???

> >

> > Has anyone actually prevented you from pulling a flagstick out when you play? Where's the "coercion"?

> >

> > If you want to keep wasting time pulling the pin, nobody that I've ever met is going to stop you. So why do you object to the Rules giving the other 90% of us the ability to leave it in when we play?

> >

> > Yeah, it only saves time when somebody doesn't insist on pulling it out. But lots and lots of us play golf every day with everyone happily leaving it in. That's who the Rule was written for.

> >

> > But not to worry. I don't think the Rules are going to change to forbid you from continuing to waste time however you see fit. Including the alignment line (which I'll venture a guess you also do).

>

> > @Newby said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread.

> > What conflict? I haven't seen any between inners and outers

> >

>

> Folks who want the flag left in because it speeds up play if everyone leaves it in get annoyed with folks who want it out. That is conflict. Leaving it in all the time benefits the group via faster PoP. Pulling the flag only benefits the single person who is putting. This will generally be viewed by the group as selfish behaviour or a "waste of time". Hence conflict, passive-aggresive coercion, etc... .

 

Speak for yourself with respect to conflict. As a referee in stroke play and match play with men, women, juniors, ams, mid-ams, seniors, and college golfers, I bet that I see much more competitive golf than most here. I have never, never seen or even sensed conflict over the flagstick nor have I ever had conflict over the flagstick reported to me. An anecdote? Sure, but my sample size is not insignificant.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > @ibradley said:

> > > > > > > I think that if everyone left the pin in all the time the game would be much faster. Faster is needed to keep golf from shrinking. For the good of the game leave the pin in. You quickly get used to it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Last time I checked low score wins and faster is rarely better. For the good of my game I think I will take the pin out or have it tended when I really care about score which is most of the time.

> > > > >

> > > > > And, isn't it lovely that you may play as you wish and so may others.

> > > >

> > > > Not really. It was an ill-advised change to address PoP which only works if everyone leaves the pin in all the time. It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread. The perfect passive-aggressive ploy to coerce folks to keep the flag in.

> > >

> > > ???

> > >

> > > Has anyone actually prevented you from pulling a flagstick out when you play? Where's the "coercion"?

> > >

> > > If you want to keep wasting time pulling the pin, nobody that I've ever met is going to stop you. So why do you object to the Rules giving the other 90% of us the ability to leave it in when we play?

> > >

> > > Yeah, it only saves time when somebody doesn't insist on pulling it out. But lots and lots of us play golf every day with everyone happily leaving it in. That's who the Rule was written for.

> > >

> > > But not to worry. I don't think the Rules are going to change to forbid you from continuing to waste time however you see fit. Including the alignment line (which I'll venture a guess you also do).

> >

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > It leads to extra conflict just like you see in this thread.

> > > What conflict? I haven't seen any between inners and outers

> > >

> >

> > Folks who want the flag left in because it speeds up play if everyone leaves it in get annoyed with folks who want it out. That is conflict. Leaving it in all the time benefits the group via faster PoP. Pulling the flag only benefits the single person who is putting. This will generally be viewed by the group as selfish behaviour or a "waste of time". Hence conflict, passive-aggresive coercion, etc... .

>

> Speak for yourself with respect to conflict. As a referee in stroke play and match play with men, women, juniors, ams, mid-ams, seniors, and college golfers, I bet that I see much more competitive golf than most here. I have never, never seen or even sensed conflict over the flagstick nor have I ever had conflict over the flagstick reported to me. An anecdote? Sure, but my sample size is not insignificant.

 

I agree. It will never be an issue in competition. Everyone cares far more about score than PoP so the pin will politely be placed in or out as needed without complaint.

[QEight]

Yesterday in competition I felt (internally) conflict. I am usually keeping the flag in. One of the guys wanted it out when about 10' out. I felt this was a small extra task to take care of, small but still there. He said that it had been statistically proven... but him not even hitting the hole and shooting over 100 proved nothing.

[Augster]

I’ve had two putts knocked out by the stick in the past 2 days. Add that to the 7 previous, and I’m done with pin in.

 

Played 36 today and pulled the pin every time within 30 feet. Made a bunch of putts and had ZERO deflected out by the pin.

 

Try putting with the pin out. The hole looks HUGE.

 

Call it “selfish” if you’d like, but it is a rule. I’m done with flagstick in.

[Halebopp]

> @"North Butte" said:

> No, it simply one person being selfish. Just like the alignment line or multiple practice swings or all the other stuff that golfers do because they think it is going to help them play better.

 

Just as it is selfish from those who want the flagstick in to not pull the flagstick. It just slows down the pace of play when you have to ask for it to be pulled or pull it yourself before your putt. Please stop trolling, there's no right or wrong way to do it no matter how much you want to claim keeping it in is the correct thing to do. There's no selfishness, simply different preferences. Now some people might be too lazy, inconsiderate, selfish or whatever to be irritated by having to do even the slightest task for others.

[chippa13]

> @Augster said:

> I’ve had two putts knocked out by the stick in the past 2 days. Add that to the 7 previous, and I’m done with pin in.

>

> Played 36 today and pulled the pin every time within 30 feet. Made a bunch of putts and had ZERO deflected out by the pin.

>

> Try putting with the pin out. The hole looks HUGE.

>

> Call it “selfish” if you’d like, but it is a rule. I’m done with flagstick in.

 

Strange. How thick are those pins that the ball is being rejected that often? I have yet to see a putt knocked out by the pin.

[denkea]

I prefer to leave the pin in until about 10' from the hole. Then take it out.

 

One thing I have noticed is people trying to extract the ball from the hole by pulling up quickly on the flagstick. If the ball gets stuck somewhat between the stick and hole side it **_may_** raise the cup some and balls dieing at the hole will fall off to the side.

 

And, IMO, Pace of Play is more affected by actions before you get to the green. Here's the thing. If everyone in a 4 some speeds up 15 seconds per hole (not much time at all) then the time for the round is faster by 18 minutes. Just food for thought.

[North Butte]

> @chippa13 said:

> > @Augster said:

> > I’ve had two putts knocked out by the stick in the past 2 days. Add that to the 7 previous, and I’m done with pin in.

> >

> > Played 36 today and pulled the pin every time within 30 feet. Made a bunch of putts and had ZERO deflected out by the pin.

> >

> > Try putting with the pin out. The hole looks HUGE.

> >

> > Call it “selfish” if you’d like, but it is a rule. I’m done with flagstick in.

>

> Strange. How thick are those pins that the ball is being rejected that often? I have yet to see a putt knocked out by the pin.

 

I saw a guy today hit a 20-foot putt so hard it would have been at least 6-8 feet past the hole if it missed. It caught some lip, bumped the flagstick and stopped a foot past the hole.

 

He swore that it would have gone in if not for the flag. No way. I was standing 5' from the hole. WIthout the stick that putt get turned slighlty by catching the lip and he ends up with a 6-footer coming back to avoid a 3-putt.

 

How does the song go, "A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest". He looked at it ended up 12" past the cup and thinks he hit it with perfect pace. He only thinks that because the flagstick slowed it down from Mach 3.

[ibradley]

> @Augster said:

> I’ve had two putts knocked out by the stick in the past 2 days. Add that to the 7 previous, and I’m done with pin in.

>

> Played 36 today and pulled the pin every time within 30 feet. Made a bunch of putts and had ZERO deflected out by the pin.

>

> Try putting with the pin out. The hole looks HUGE.

>

> Call it “selfish” if you’d like, but it is a rule. I’m done with flagstick in.

 

9 total putts kept out seems like really bad luck. I have only seen a couple in 140 rounds or so. I have been playing on pretty good greens and early in the day for the most part. I wonder if bumpier greens makes a difference. Ball maybe gets some loft coming over the "lumpy donut" as it approaches the hole.