Golf ball marked "on the green" by mistake - lifted and it was off

[2bGood]

As an aside, with our Match everything was good to go as for the ruling. I don't post this about the one instance, but more the broader discussion about how this situation is handled but the rules.

[2bGood]

> @2bGood said:

> As an aside, with our Match everything was good to go as for the ruling. I don't post this about the one instance, but more the broader discussion about how this situation is handled but the rules.

 

 

 

> @Twism86 said:

> You all agreed it was mark-able to best of your knowledge. Go with that. Keep golf fun, dont be a rules grouch!

>

 

I am a "rules grouch" in that I do my best to play within them - _when it matters_...

 

Regular Sunday round and a guy is already at his ESC on a hole, then I am not too fussed, but when playing in an actually competition I do expect everyone to play by the rules.

[Augster]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @Augster said:

> > I’m with rogolf completely on this one.

> >

> > Even in match play, with both of your opponents coming over and saying “That’s on the green” and the other says “that’s on the green” and then you say thanks, and lift it, and now KNOW it wasn’t on the green, you can’t agree to waive the penalty.

> >

> > All 3 of you were just wrong. Which happens. But you have to apply the penalty. Didn’t change the outcome at all due to partners ball as said.

> >

> > But when it’s close, don’t mark it. Just play it. Problem solved.

>

> I don't know how you can say in your example that the players end up "knowing" the ball wasn't on the green. They absolutely did not "know" that, in fact, one of the player's confusion caused him to write this OP.

>

> Beyond this, and my preceding belief that this ball (which I see as tangentially touching the inside of the "circle" of the green) is on the green, there is this to consider from 1.3b(2) regarding the accurate determination of the ball's location under the rules:

>

>

> "So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information."

>

>

> In this case, not only the player but his opponent behaved in a reasonable way and came to a determination.

 

What?

 

The entire reason he posted is that he picked up the ball and it wasn’t touching the green. If it was, this wouldn’t be a thread. Yes, you can mark your ball on the green. Thread over.

 

He picked it up and the ball was not touching ANY grass cut to green height. In the first post:

 

“After the ball was marked and lifted it became clear that there was no way it was touching grass cut to the green height.”

 

They absolutely DID know the ball wasn’t on the green, physically touching any grass on the green, after he lifted it. If it was touching the green, this thread would have been unnecessary.

[sui generis]

> @Augster said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > I’m with rogolf completely on this one.

> > >

> > > Even in match play, with both of your opponents coming over and saying “That’s on the green” and the other says “that’s on the green” and then you say thanks, and lift it, and now KNOW it wasn’t on the green, you can’t agree to waive the penalty.

> > >

> > > All 3 of you were just wrong. Which happens. But you have to apply the penalty. Didn’t change the outcome at all due to partners ball as said.

> > >

> > > But when it’s close, don’t mark it. Just play it. Problem solved.

> >

> > I don't know how you can say in your example that the players end up "knowing" the ball wasn't on the green. They absolutely did not "know" that, in fact, one of the player's confusion caused him to write this OP.

> >

> > Beyond this, and my preceding belief that this ball (which I see as tangentially touching the inside of the "circle" of the green) is on the green, there is this to consider from 1.3b(2) regarding the accurate determination of the ball's location under the rules:

> >

> >

> > "So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information."

> >

> >

> > In this case, not only the player but his opponent behaved in a reasonable way and came to a determination.

>

> What?

>

> The entire reason he posted is that he picked up the ball and it wasn’t touching the green. If it was, this wouldn’t be a thread. Yes, you can mark your ball on the green. Thread over.

>

> He picked it up and the ball was not touching ANY grass cut to green height. In the first post:

>

> “After the ball was marked and lifted it became clear that there was no way it was touching grass cut to the green height.”

>

> They absolutely DID know the ball wasn’t on the green, physically touching any grass on the green, after he lifted it. If it was touching the green, this thread would have been unnecessary.

 

Just because the mower missed a part of the "specially prepared for putting" area doesn't mean the ball was not on the putting green. Sawgrass speaketh the truth.

[2bGood]

> @Augster said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > I’m with rogolf completely on this one.

> > >

> > > Even in match play, with both of your opponents coming over and saying “That’s on the green” and the other says “that’s on the green” and then you say thanks, and lift it, and now KNOW it wasn’t on the green, you can’t agree to waive the penalty.

> > >

> > > All 3 of you were just wrong. Which happens. But you have to apply the penalty. Didn’t change the outcome at all due to partners ball as said.

> > >

> > > But when it’s close, don’t mark it. Just play it. Problem solved.

> >

> > I don't know how you can say in your example that the players end up "knowing" the ball wasn't on the green. They absolutely did not "know" that, in fact, one of the player's confusion caused him to write this OP.

> >

> > Beyond this, and my preceding belief that this ball (which I see as tangentially touching the inside of the "circle" of the green) is on the green, there is this to consider from 1.3b(2) regarding the accurate determination of the ball's location under the rules:

> >

> >

> > "So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information."

> >

> >

> > In this case, not only the player but his opponent behaved in a reasonable way and came to a determination.

>

> What?

>

> The entire reason he posted is that he picked up the ball and it wasn’t touching the green. If it was, this wouldn’t be a thread. Yes, you can mark your ball on the green. Thread over.

>

> He picked it up and the ball was not touching ANY grass cut to green height. In the first post:

>

> “After the ball was marked and lifted it became clear that there was no way it was touching grass cut to the green height.”

>

> They absolutely DID know the ball wasn’t on the green, physically touching any grass on the green, after he lifted it. If it was touching the green, this thread would have been unnecessary.

 

I chose the words I posted carefully for a reason. I did not say "I picked it up and it was clear it was **not on the green**" I said it was not touching grass cut to green height. The central question is - does the grass height define the green or does shape define the green. Given some areas of green can have no grass at all, or higher grass than other parts of the green or even the area surrounding the green and the green are cut to the same height. I am coming to the side were simply a raised area of grass does not mean it is not part of the green, just like short grass in the fringe does not make the fringe part of the green.

 

[sui generis]

> @2bGood said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @Augster said:

> > > > I’m with rogolf completely on this one.

> > > >

> > > > Even in match play, with both of your opponents coming over and saying “That’s on the green” and the other says “that’s on the green” and then you say thanks, and lift it, and now KNOW it wasn’t on the green, you can’t agree to waive the penalty.

> > > >

> > > > All 3 of you were just wrong. Which happens. But you have to apply the penalty. Didn’t change the outcome at all due to partners ball as said.

> > > >

> > > > But when it’s close, don’t mark it. Just play it. Problem solved.

> > >

> > > I don't know how you can say in your example that the players end up "knowing" the ball wasn't on the green. They absolutely did not "know" that, in fact, one of the player's confusion caused him to write this OP.

> > >

> > > Beyond this, and my preceding belief that this ball (which I see as tangentially touching the inside of the "circle" of the green) is on the green, there is this to consider from 1.3b(2) regarding the accurate determination of the ball's location under the rules:

> > >

> > >

> > > "So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information."

> > >

> > >

> > > In this case, not only the player but his opponent behaved in a reasonable way and came to a determination.

> >

> > What?

> >

> > The entire reason he posted is that he picked up the ball and it wasn’t touching the green. If it was, this wouldn’t be a thread. Yes, you can mark your ball on the green. Thread over.

> >

> > He picked it up and the ball was not touching ANY grass cut to green height. In the first post:

> >

> > “After the ball was marked and lifted it became clear that there was no way it was touching grass cut to the green height.”

> >

> > They absolutely DID know the ball wasn’t on the green, physically touching any grass on the green, after he lifted it. If it was touching the green, this thread would have been unnecessary.

>

> I I am coming to the side were simply a raised area of grass does not mean it is not part of the green, just like short grass in the fringe does not make it part of the green.

>

 

Hang onto that notion. (The Definitions are the very first place referees are taught to consider when making a ruling.)

[2bGood]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @2bGood said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > I’m with rogolf completely on this one.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even in match play, with both of your opponents coming over and saying “That’s on the green” and the other says “that’s on the green” and then you say thanks, and lift it, and now KNOW it wasn’t on the green, you can’t agree to waive the penalty.

> > > > >

> > > > > All 3 of you were just wrong. Which happens. But you have to apply the penalty. Didn’t change the outcome at all due to partners ball as said.

> > > > >

> > > > > But when it’s close, don’t mark it. Just play it. Problem solved.

> > > >

> > > > I don't know how you can say in your example that the players end up "knowing" the ball wasn't on the green. They absolutely did not "know" that, in fact, one of the player's confusion caused him to write this OP.

> > > >

> > > > Beyond this, and my preceding belief that this ball (which I see as tangentially touching the inside of the "circle" of the green) is on the green, there is this to consider from 1.3b(2) regarding the accurate determination of the ball's location under the rules:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > "So long as the player does what can be reasonably expected under the circumstances to make an accurate determination, the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if, after the stroke is made, the determination is shown to be wrong by video evidence or other information."

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > In this case, not only the player but his opponent behaved in a reasonable way and came to a determination.

> > >

> > > What?

> > >

> > > The entire reason he posted is that he picked up the ball and it wasn’t touching the green. If it was, this wouldn’t be a thread. Yes, you can mark your ball on the green. Thread over.

> > >

> > > He picked it up and the ball was not touching ANY grass cut to green height. In the first post:

> > >

> > > “After the ball was marked and lifted it became clear that there was no way it was touching grass cut to the green height.”

> > >

> > > They absolutely DID know the ball wasn’t on the green, physically touching any grass on the green, after he lifted it. If it was touching the green, this thread would have been unnecessary.

> >

> > I I am coming to the side were simply a raised area of grass does not mean it is not part of the green, just like short grass in the fringe does not make it part of the green.

> >

>

> Hang onto that notion. (The Definitions are the very first place referees are taught to consider when making a ruling.)

The area on the hole the player is playing that:

 

Is specially prepared for putting, or

The Committee has defined as the putting green (such as when a temporary green is used).

The putting green for a hole contains the hole into which the player tries to play a ball. The putting green is one of the five defined areas of the course. The putting greens for all other holes (which the player is not playing at the time) are wrong greens and part of the general area.

 

**The edge of a putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (such as where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge), unless the Committee defines the edge in a different way (such as by using a line or dots).**

 

If a double green is used for two different holes:

 

The entire prepared area containing both holes is treated as the putting green when playing each hole.

But the Committee may define an edge that divides the double green into two different putting greens, so that when a player is playing one of the holes, the part of the double green for the other hole is a wrong green.

 

View Less

 

[Newby]

> @2bGood said:

> The edge of a putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (**such as** where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge),

>

That is simply an example. It does not preclude using the 'natural' line of cut.

[2bGood]

> @Newby said:

> > @2bGood said:

> > The edge of a putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (**such as** where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge),

> >

> That is simply an example. I does not preclude using the 'natural' line of cut.

 

I agree.

[Shilgy]

For those that say the ball in question was NOT on the green let’s flip it.

 

Let’s say the overzealous staff accidentally failed to lift the blades and went over the edge of green creating a little spot of green height grass in the fringe.

Would you then consider that ball to be on the green?

[2bGood]

> @Newby said:

> > @2bGood said:

> > The edge of a putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (**such as** where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge),

> >

> That is simply an example. I does not preclude using the 'natural' line of cut.

 

I agree. > @Shilgy said:

> For those that say the ball in question was NOT on the green let’s flip it.

>

> Let’s say the overzealous staff accidentally failed to lift the blades and went over the edge of green creating a little spot of green height grass in the fringe.

> Would you then consider that ball to be on the green?

 

Funny thing, is I am now paying lots of attention the green/fringe edge. I think mainly from the grass being stressed as opposed to cut low I can find lots of area of fringe that are green height, as you describe. I am also looking more closely at the areas where the fringe reaches onto the green. I have even see a many areas where longer grass encroaches on the green (more sever than myself insane as my ball was able to hide it).

I found I new hobby now that no one need the flagstick tended when they putt.

[Shilgy]

> @2bGood said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @2bGood said:

> > > The edge of a putting green is defined by where it can be seen that the specially prepared area starts (**such as** where the grass has been distinctly cut to show the edge),

> > >

> > That is simply an example. I does not preclude using the 'natural' line of cut.

>

> I agree. > @Shilgy said:

> > For those that say the ball in question was NOT on the green let’s flip it.

> >

> > Let’s say the overzealous staff accidentally failed to lift the blades and went over the edge of green creating a little spot of green height grass in the fringe.

> > Would you then consider that ball to be on the green?

>

> Funny thing, is I am now paying lots of attention the green/fringe edge. I think mainly from the grass being stressed as opposed to cut low I can find lots of area of fringe that are green height, as you describe. I am also looking more closely at the areas where the fringe reaches onto the green. I have even see a many areas where longer grass encroaches on the green (more sever than myself insane as my ball was able to hide it).

> I found I new hobby now that no one need the flagstick tended when they putt.

 

I think you mentioned it earlier but what about when the outer cut has not been done when playing? Many courses have one guy that cuts the greens but a different, and more precise, guy does the edge defining cut. If you play before the edge guy comes through are you not in the green if near the edge? I would say if course you are. You can see where the edge is day in and day out.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

> @2bGood said:

> > @2bGood said:

> > As an aside, with our Match everything was good to go as for the ruling. I don't post this about the one instance, but more the broader discussion about how this situation is handled but the rules.

>

>

>

> > @Twism86 said:

> > You all agreed it was mark-able to best of your knowledge. Go with that. Keep golf fun, dont be a rules grouch!

> >

>

> I am a "rules grouch" in that I do my best to play within them - _when it matters_...

>

> Regular Sunday round and a guy is already at his ESC on a hole, then I am not too fussed, but when playing in an actually competition I do expect everyone to play by the rules.

 

Great discussion.....I applaud your efforts to efforts to ensure you were playing by the rules. I'm of the opinion that calling this "peninsula" of grass part of the green is certainly within the spirit of the rules. A mower leaving some blades of grass on the edge of the green longer than the rest doesn't suddenly transform that grass into the fringe......just as accidentally over-mowing/scalping the fringe doesn't just make the fringe part of the green. What you did was right.