What is the one rule you wish could be changed

[LICC]

Agree but it’s almost impossible to enforce.

[Halebopp]

You wanted to use the same criteria as is used for determining whether a ball has moved or merely oscillated and how to decide if a lost ball is in a penalty area. The level of certainty is 95% and that is what you yourself wanted. As of now I am perfectly capable of deciding when my ball is in a playable or an unplayable lie. But requiring the use of knowledge or virtual certainty would make that decision much more difficult unless the ball was truly lodged in between two rocks. If I was forced to play the ball as it lies when I have a 5.1% chance of moving it, I would need to try and make strokes at balls in lies I'd never try with the current set of rules.

 

The R&A and the USGA actually tackled this very issue and you know what they did? They actually thought it would be a good idea to make the game easier to play by the rules by allowing people to drop outside of bunkers with a two-stroke penalty.

 

Don't feel the need to reply if all you have to say is I'm being illogical, I don't make any sense or that I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be. We all already know everyone else but you are illogical and can't provide any sound reasoning to back up our views.

[LICC]

"Unplayable for me is not that same as unplayable for you." - That is the same illogical nonsense you try to use to support your other arguments. A ball is playable or it is not. This isn't a subjective exercise. Someone can safely put a stroke on it or they can't. Some may be able to put a better swing on it than others, but that doesn't make a ball unplayable. Some may try to play an unplayable ball anyway, or try to make a more risky swing than the safe swing that can be easily played, but that still doesn't change when a ball is playable or not.

[HitEmTrue]

No, that choice is currently stroke-and-distance. You are wanting to make that choice become a much better option.

 

[LICC]

I never said anything about using the same criteria or putting a percentage certainty on anything. I pointed out that there are other rules where determinations have to be made based on assumptions, so this is not a unique concept.

[isaacbm]

Well this is just ridiculous. I’ll give you a very common example that happens often. A ball is plugged under the lip of a very steep bunker. Being agile, I can get in that bunker and play the shot. My 85-year-old grandfather with a sore hip and bad ankles cannot get into that bunker to play the shot. He must drop it or else he will literally hurt himself.

In this case, the ball is unplayable to him but playable to me.

[CaseyC]

Being next to a tree or rock does not make a ball unplayable.

[Vindog]

This is also in line with the reasoning that one is allowed to enlist help in removing a loose impediment. What I can physically remove is not the same as what another can physically remove.

[LICC]

You have to resort to 85 year-old grandfather hypotheticals to support your argument. That's weak. How many 85 year-olds are out playing full courses? But ok, I'm fine with a special rule for seniors that lets them declare balls unplayable based on the standards of seniors.

[DaveLeeNC]

You are not comprehending what am saying. Maybe you have not encountered bermuda rough that typically is cut to 1" that (for whatever reason) is suddenly now at 4 inches and your ball is in a depression in that. Or globs of wiregrass and your ball flew into the middle of that. etc. Or arthritic wrists that cannot tolerate digging a ball that is exceptionally buried in the rough.

dave

[LICC]

I never said it did.

[Warrior42111]

It would be easier in life if everything was black and white, yes and no etc. But that is not the way the world works. The reason why the rule is written is because there are so many unforeseen or new/ novel ways a ball could be positioned that every possible unplayable vs playable lie can not be listed. Also, as others have stated there are physical limitations on some of us people. That's why it comes to judgement and it will usually err on the side of the person deciding.

A prefect example of this is literally my career. I do certification of aircraft interiors. Now like the rules of golf there are plenty of black and white regulations and tests to be passed. But in aviation everything is always evolving and new or novel creations occur. When they occur there is not specific regulation or golf rule interpretation to go off of. In these cases I have to use my engineering knowledge, and training to make the decision. The same for an unplayable lie, you have to look at the full situation, and make a decision, based on that particular setting.

Now we might disagree on the decisions and that is fine it what the forums allow us to discuss. But if the person who makes that determination, in the case, the golfer, then by the rules they have that right.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

This maybe be the most uninformed post of 2019 (re: A ball is unplayable or it is not). dave

ps. Oops - I just read post #789. I amend my statement of above to be 2nd most uninformed post of 2019.

[LICC]

Merriam-Webster: unplayable lie- a position that does not allow a shot to be made

You seem to think there are multiple variations to this based on each individual. That is ridiculous. A ball buried under wiregrass is unplayable. A ball sitting in thick rough is not unplayable. Give me a picture of any lie that you want and I'll tell you right away if it is playable or not.

[isaacbm]

“Resort” Lol! There are 22 members at my golf course that are over 80 years old that play 18 holes three times a week. 15 of them walk. All under 4 hours I might add.

 

That’s not really the point though. The point is that GOLF is a game of choices. And of consequences. Hitting balls to certain places require hard choices and tough consequences. I don’t really want that taken away from me. That’s the best part of the game to me. It makes the game more intricate, challenging, and rewarding.

[davep043]

So I hit a tee shot deep into the woods. I arrive to find that ball, and I can hit it, but I see that my chance of getting it back into the fairway in two more shots are pretty low. So I decide, playing with complete integrity and in strict accordance with the rules, to take stroke-and-distance relief, return to the tee, and hit my next shot. And somehow I have violated the principles of the game, the principle that you quoted,

“1.2 Standards of Player Conduct

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.”

So I have followed the rules, I have applied all appropriate penalties, I have honestly told my opponent what I am doing, and I've still somehow violated the Standards of Conduct? You really ARE out of touch with logic.

[LICC]

You bolded the wrong phrase. Try bolding "being honest in all aspects of play". You declared a playable ball as unplayable in your hypothetical. It is also a ridiculous hypothetical- your ball is in a position where you can play it but it can't get back to the fairway in two more shots. This is the scenario you are conjuring up to support these illogical and severe penalties.

[Sawgrass]

Would you like another of your "special rules" that permits a shorter person to take an unplayable for a ball stuck 9 feet up in a tree, but a taller person who can reach it with their club must play it? Just trying to figure out the logic behind the conditional special rule system . . .

[davep043]

I've been in plenty of places where the most likely result of a shot is similar to a pachinko game, with the ball ricocheting off multiple trees, and quite possibly ending up in an even worse position. If I choose to take relief, I am the sole authority for making that decision, under the rules. I make an honest assessment of my chances, I honestly choose an option that I am specifically empowered to make under the rules, I honestly inform my opponent of my choice. The rule that YOU quoted is:

"A player is the only person who may decide to treat his or her ball as unplayable by taking penalty relief under Rule 19.2 or 19.3."

That doesn't tell me what the basis for my decision must be, it doesn't say the ball MUST be impossible to move, it only tells me that I must decide. So I decide, I apply the penalty. That is absolutely appropriate under every principle of player conduct.

[isaacbm]

Seriously? Have you never played a course with dense underbrush? Very easy to find your ball but not have it be playable. In another example, Nearly every round we play in the desert we can find people’s balls off of the fairway in a desert bush where in theory they could get in there and swing but because there are cactus everywhere they could get hurt.

 

you make it sound like the only course you have ever played is a Parkland course with individual trees that run back-and-forth between each hole.

[HitEmTrue]

Miriam-Webster didn't write the rules of golf:"Purpose of Rule: Rule 19 covers the player’s several relief options for an unplayable ball. This allows the player to choose which option to use – normally with one penalty stroke – to get out of a difficult situation anywhere on the course (except in a penalty area).

A player is the only person who may decide to treat his or her ball as unplayable by taking penalty relief under Rule 19.2 or 19.3."

 

[LICC]

There are all sorts of special rules for senior citizens in our society. That's not quite like giving special treatment based on height. But keep going with these crazy arguments of yours ...

[LICC]

If you can't execute a 30-50 yard pitch through a window between trees, that is an execution challenge, not an unplayable ball. Tell yourself whatever you want to feel better, but if you declare a ball that you can clearly put a swing on it as "unplayable", then you are not being honest. The word in the rule is "unplayable". I guess if you have this near-impossible scenario of yours that your ball has a good lie and you can strike it fine but is behind a wall of trees with no window to hit any shot through to anyplace near a fairway, then you can justify relief. That sounds like it should be a penalty area. And it also sounds unlike any course I've ever played.

[Sawgrass]

Oh, did you think I said that age is the same thing as height? Or do you simply not wish to acknowledge that a shorter person's ball may be unplayable for him or her, where a taller person may be able to get a club on it?

[LICC]

If a ball is buried in underbrush than you can't strike it-unplayable. If the ball is in a cactus and you can't safely take a stance- unplayable. Easy to determine. Next ...

[LICC]

Oh please do further explain this scenario of yours ...

[davep043]

@LICC
"Tell yourself whatever you want to feel better, but if you declare a ball that you can clearly put a swing on it as "unplayable", then you are not being honest. The word in the rule is "unplayable"."
Perhaps you should read this part too:"Purpose of Rule: Rule 19 covers the player’s several relief options for an unplayable ball. This allows the player to choose which option to use – normally with one penalty stroke – to get out of a difficult situation anywhere on the course (except in a penalty area)."
The Purpose of the Rule specifically says the rule allows the player this as an option to get out of a "difficult situation"
You may choose to condemn others for knowing and utilizing the rules to their advantage, but you're being illogical if you can read the purpose of the rule and conclude that the player is somehow being unethical or disingenuous. Being in the woods is a "difficult situation". Sometimes the smart choice is to take stroke-and-distance.

[isaacbm]

I think I finally understand. You don’t actually play golf.

[nsxguy]

What ? "His" arguments are crazy and YOURS aren't. LOL

Your sole objection here is to the word "unplayable" when clearly the ROG, in this case, is not applying the word literally as you so dearly want to do.

So send the USGA and R&A a suggestion as to what to call it so that they can amend the RB to say "Unplayable/XXXXXXX" where XXXXXX is YOUR term for 1 shot relief anywhere on the course.

Problem solved. (<---- just kidding LOL)

[HitEmTrue]

And other scenarios where a smaller person may be able to squeeze into a tight space, in between the limbs or whatever, and play the ball, and a large person may not be able to.