PCC Experiences under the WHS

[bortass]

Nope because I haven't found anything you can count on weatherwise to say oh, it'll be a high PCC day. I've seen a +1 and +2 so far. I didn't consider either day difficult but it may be because of my particular circumstance. I just started playing in Dec after taking many years off from the game. All I'm used to playing in is cold and wet conditions right now. Add in trying to regain any semblance of a swing and the weather has been the least of my issues, lol.

 

It all comes down to how many people post on that day and how those scores fit into their PCC model. So it's a crapshoot, lol.

[davep043]

I think you're right, on a day like that, I'm not sure you'd get a ton of play, you might not get enough scores posted to even do the calculation.

[lchang]

I got a +1 PCC adjustment (meaning it was playing harder) for a round in Palm Springs a month ago on what I remember as sunny, not-windy weather conditions and flawless course conditions. Weird.

 

I mean, my foursome was drinking too much and I shot poorly, but I don't think that explains it!

[davep043]

I think we're going to see some results that seem odd. With any statistically based analysis, there will be some statistically unusual events that can't be explained by the difficulty of play that day, they're just statistical outliers. I'll be interested to see how often the PCC applies. If its two rounds of your last 20, and only one of those is in the best 8 scores, the likely result will be a tenth or two in your HI. More often than not, the PCC will apply to higher-than-average scores (that's what triggers the PCC), and these scores will NOT be in the best 8, so there will be no difference at all for those scores.

[nsxguy]

If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying that your "true" differential was increased by 1, like a true 7.5 was adjusted to an 8.5, yes ?

Unless I'm mistaken, yet again, that means the course was playing easier, not harder.

[lchang]

Nope. The PCC was +1. Which as stated in an earlier post lowers the differential. I also checked the math for this round’s effective differential entered in GHIN. (It didn’t matter for me as it was nowhere near top 8 of 20.)

just a bunch of people posted high scores that day for some reason I guess....

 

[nsxguy]

So your true diff was lowered by 1 then, like 7.5 to 6.5.

Gotcha, that would mean the average scores returned were higher than expected. Certainly guess that can happen even on a great day to play.

I guess that might even be likely at a resort course, no ? Often(?) a bunch of out-of-towners on vacation just beating the ball around having a good time, maybe even with rental clubs, and with no familiarity with the course ?

[davep043]

Just a tiny quibble, but that 1 stroke difference (increasing the CR is the best way to think of it) gets reduced by a factor of (113/Slope), so could make a difference of 0.8 or 0.9. But I think you're probably right, if the play at a resort course is mostly by first-timers, some of whom are just slapping it around, scores seem likely to be higher than you'd anticipate.

[lchang]

Correct on both fronts. 130 slope, so ended up being .9 reduction.

and yes it was a resort course on a slow and crowded Saturday. That probably explains it

[nsxguy]

Never really thought about it much and that is just a guess of course but I wouldn't think too many locals, who take the game seriously, would be playing resort courses all that often.

Or perhaps stated more accurately(?) resort courses would probably have a larger percentage of part-timers/vacationers/high handicappers, who just happen to have a handicap, playing there.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Thank you for defining the topic first. I was just guessing as to what everything meant.

PCC seems to depend only upon posted scores? That doesn’t seem very reliable?

[ThinkingPlus]

Basing adjustments on unposted scores seems problematic given the dearth of information available. ;-)

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Exactly, or obvious abuse.

[Newby]

What else would you base it on? Unposted scores?

[davep043]

What would you suggest as an option, an alternative to using actual data available?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I would propose simply posting the scores good or bad. Over time your handicap would converge to where it needs to be.

Many courses play by “Winter Rules” making it difficult to ascertain a “real score” given pick and place and “fluffing” the turf?

In the summer months I might shoot 76 and in winter 82. My average score would simply move about 79, and my handicap based upon the best 8 would be something a little lower than that. So, in the winter time, I’m approximately a 10 and in the summer better than 6. If I lived in Virginia, perhaps my rounds would be a bit more extreme, but generally speaking, my handicap would converge where it needs to be especially when playing against others. Seems self correcting if left alone and simple.

[davep043]

That's fair, you just don't want any PCC. I suppose the PCC is the result of attempting to combine 6 different systems into one. The inclusion of a PCC is either a compromise, or its a group trying to select the best features from each system. In the case of the PCC or similar adjustments, they've been in use for decades in other parts of the world, and seem to work reasonably well. Either way, I don't believe it will make a huge difference in most handicaps. Maybe it will reduce the seasonal swing we see in some parts of the country. And for the user, nothing could be more simple, just enter your scores.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

True, I admit that I’m not that knowledgeable about the handicap system.

Some I know, who seem to care about their handicaps seem frustrated because changes are not as intuitive. Your explanation partially explains why.

[Newby]

Yes, PCC or variants have been running in the other major systems for many years. The Australian DSR algorithm was reckoned to be the most sophisticated but I believe has been tweaked slightly for PCC.

This, from an old GA document may be of interest:Four inputs are used which are key to describing a competition

 The average handicap of the field  The average score of the field  The size of the field and  The type of competition, ie Stroke, Par or Stableford, Men or Women. Once we have the average handicap of the field, and the competition type, it is a straightforward calculation to arrive at what the average score should be under normal conditions. We then consider the actual average score. Its difference to the normal score is a measure of course condition. But there is one further factor which makes this method universally applicable. It is the weighting factor which is based on the type of competition and most importantly field size.

[klebs01]

I would love this. Play 20 rounds in the winter and move from like a 3 to a 25. It would make spring events nuts. Really though, it’s just not practical. I played today because it was in the mid 40s and courses stared opening. No tee markers, no flags, holes full of water, greens haven’t been cut in months, can barely get a tee in the ground, and snow still on parts of the course. It was great to get out but not remotely close to in season conditions. It really isn’t worth allowing scores to be posted before the season opens on April 1.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Misery has its rewards, if you’re willing to get out there and play in frozen ground conditions, the first few rounds of the season should be yours.

I’m surprised you play 22 strokes worse in the winter months, but golf is certainly more than 50% a mental game.

[klebs01]

Tough to find a ball in the snow. Lots of penalty strokes.

 

 

I was actually joking. The closed season just makes a ton of sense and prevents some manipulation by sandbaggers posting when courses aren’t maintained.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I wonder if that’s the real reason bright orange colored balls were created by a Nordic sounding company? If there was snow on the ground, one could ski up to the ball. Interesting.

Right, my only complaint is even with PCC, sand baggers can do the same manipulation. Their handicaps can still go up. Especially, if they’re losing two balls per hole. Although, I’ve never actually attempted to hit a ball out of snow before so I don’t know if that’s two strokes or not?

Joking aside, I think PCC is designed for honest golfers who work hard to maintain their handicaps. Nothing wrong with that?

[nsxguy]

klebs was referring to the "closed season" as preventing (some) sandbagging.

PCC has to nothing to do with sandbagging as the bagger will bag. He/she has no idea what everybody else is doing that day. PCC is to make a more accurate differential based on all scores that day.

[Sawgrass]

From the definition of temporary water:

 

Snow and Natural Ice (other than frost), are either loose impediments or, when on the ground, temporary water, at the player’s option.

All you have to do is to opt to call the snow temporary water, and R16.1e provides free relief for a ball lost in snow.

 

[lchang]

What would the PCC have been for Saturday's round at the Arnie Palmer Invitational?!

[golfortennis]

The reason for PCC is this: say a day is rainy, or really windy. You and I go out and play, and post a score. Either we shoot a real good score in horrible conditions(ie, around par when we would be under in regular conditions), or it's a real struggle. Our handicap goes up, or goes down, but not by as much. Jim, Bob, or whoever, doesn't bother to play. So his handicap has no change at all. In many ways, he is rewarded, unless he is a sandbagger, by not playing.

I know some of our friends across the pond were confused when I posited this situation in the past, as they thought "the field was playing under the same conditions." But some guys aren't playing. Should they be rewarded by keeping their caps down because they only play in perfect conditions?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Makes sense. Although, I agree that the non players are the ones that are punished. Lower handicaps are not something to treasure.

[davep043]

Who can say when they go out that they'll shoot a good score or a bad one? You can certainly tell if its likely to be a difficult day, but do we always know in advance how we'll perform? What the PCC is intended to do is to recognize a good score on a difficult day, even if the raw number doesn't look as good as it might if the conditions were easier. But not playing in order to maintain a low handicap, that seems silly. And in my mind, anyone choosing not to play is being punished, he doesn't get to spend the day playing golf with friends.

[golfortennis]

"recognize a good score on a difficult day" is a better wording to what I was trying to get at.

But I can tell you a number of guys at many clubs do not show up unless it's 75 and sunny. Whether it is done due to comfort, handicap management reasons, or otherwise, they aren't out there. I wasn't commenting as much from their perspective, moreso from mine that playing in those conditions hurts my handicap. The social aspect is unquantifiable, so that can certainly be viewed that way. I just like the fact conditions are now going to have at least some impact.