My Work Around COVID-19 (no politics please)

[BeerPerHole]

I'm an engineer who works in hospital facility design, and I write mechanical plumbing and HVAC codes for healthcare facilities. Work, as you might imagine, has been a little crazy lately. When it looked like this bug wasn't fading away in China I did what I've always done and fully immersed myself in any available research. I'm seeing all kinds of uninformed stuff on the internet and the news about it. Lots of anxiety out there. I can't help but chuckle at the toilet paper craze. The thing that sets this baby apart is how contagious it is. Remember all your old rules to get you through flu season? Step it up a notch. Early on, and still, I suggested we treat this like it's airborne - not unlike measles or TB. My theory was supported by a paper published by johns hopkins a few days after I drafted my notes for my organization. Very contagious, possibly airborne. It has demonstrated, at least, that it flies much better than what we see with the flu. We'll know more as we get more time with it. Now's not the time to ride crowded buses or commuter trains, stand in crowded elevators, etc.

I like to joke that a golf course is a great place to be. I'm standing by that. Leave the pin in the cup. I like golf, good beer and Al Czervik because we have to find balance in life, and there's been a little pressure in the office lately. I sincerely hope you guys and your families get through this unscathed.

[MtlJeff]

I think we have done a decent job here in Quebec. Our premier early on advised against large gatherings, cancelled schools and daycares , we say we've invested in hotlines and tests etc. Most people seem to be doing the social distancing thing. Our stores are mostly empty and we only have "24" confirmed cases right now

It's the calm before the storm. Next 3 weeks we will know whether we will do ok or be in total deep ****. Still too early to tell. I'm tentatively optimistic due to seeing how well countries like South Korea and the Scandinavian countries seem to be doing

Im not sure we can handle the bandwidth of a big outbreak in hospitals. Our first attempt at a hotline crashed after a few days and at that time we had < 10 cases . But big outbreaks seem to have only happened in places who weren't prepared at all

Many companies are still requiring their employees be in the office. Even ones with 1000+ people. Though i am guessing this will change rapidly . Anyway I guess well find out shortly enough

 

[Bob Cat]

Daughter's in Co Springs. She went out to eat and the restaurant had napkins on the bathroom sink with a note of apology for no TP because people were stealing it. W. T. H.

OP: Agree on golf. I'm an OS sales rep and we've been told to get off the road. I have a bluetooth earpiece that I'll be wearing this week while doing some Spring work outside the house and I expect to play more golf this Spring during working hours.

The panic is real. My son's boss saw two ladies fighting over TP at a Wal-Mart last week. lol. C'mon maaan.

[Mych]

Stress, anxiety, loss of routine, inability to get off social media... all good reasons to take a nice pleasant 7 mile walk down the golf course.

I'm forcing my kids to walk the dogs every 3-4 hours. I refuse to let us to become cavemen over the next few weeks.

[Petethreeput]

We are pretty careful to stay in our lane without being alarmists. I don't have an igloo of toilet paper or thousands of hand sanitizers, but I also don't want to be the guy who unknowingly has the virus and passes it along to someone who dies.

The selfishness I see on my social media feeds is what amazes me. For everyone posting about flattening the curve, there is someone else saying, "Its the flu and I won't die so who gives a ****?" Given the contagiousness of the virus, and the deadliness of it for those over 70, I just don't get it. Yeah, it may not be your parent/grandparent/great grandparent who gets it, but it is someone else's, and this just makes me wonder how we can ever come together if these people are so nonchalant with public health.

I cannot imagine being a hospital worker, or worse, an elderly patient in the hospital for something completely unrelated. I cannot imagine how important your work with the HVAC system is for these institutions. One of those unsung infrastructures. Never would have even thought about this, unless you had posted. Thank you.

[bladehunter]

So why not quarantine the at risk ? And everybody else go on . Who cares for the elderly after it passes if we’re all broke ?

[Petethreeput]

Well, it seems like many of the elderly are already being quarantined. But it is a ball of thread and once its pulled it begins to unravel. So, we quarantine an old folks home, but someone has to work there. That worker is fastidious in their hygiene, but they went to the store to buy their toilet paper (four times since they were out the first three times) and the stocker was partying the night before and isn't showing symptoms. This nursing home worker grabs the TP, then without thinking touches their face (or whatever) and gets the virus. Of course, there are no symptoms yet, the worker has their temperature taken, let into work, and then off goes the nursing home. Now the stocker has no idea they have done it, and of course, they probably didn't mean to kill a bunch of geriatrics, but lo and behold, they have unwittingly continued the virus.

But this may just be me. And like I said, I am not an alarmist, I don't fit the demographic, but I do feel like being socially responsible to others is part of the equation.

[BeerPerHole]

That's a great question. From my perspective....Hospitals in the US have a woefully low number of airborne infection isolation rooms (AII). I help design them, so I know. I never liked how few there are. Now, I know why it didn't seem right. The CDC's initial recommendation was to place such patients in these rooms (which really were initially created for airborne illness...see my curiosity?) Then the cases started exploding: Jan 19 - 100 cases. Jan 24 - 1000 cases. Jan 28 -5000 cases. Feb 12 - 50,000 cases (the CDC discourages testing at this point). March 6 - 100,000 cases (CDC says to just try to get such patients into a room where you can close the door). Now, over 150,000 cases (and I'm sure I'm already behind on the numbers this morning). My point is that this will very likely overwhelm even our medical system in America - unless we can slow it down. Think of all those people who are undergoing chemo for cancer, those going in for hip replacements so they can walk again, mothers giving birth, etc. This will impact all of those people. Just last night, laying in bed, I was going over this in my head. And, FWIW, we are seeing cases with healthy people who aren't elderly but who are really suffering from this. Nothing warrants panic as far as I'm concerned. But, this requires increased diligence from everybody.

[bladehunter]

Right. I get all of that. And don’t dispute its possibilities. But.

I worry that the panic driven hoarding and no work can turn to chaos quickly as folks get bills next month they can’t pay. Crime rises. And suddenly guard duty on the home front is a real thing. Will take months to get there of course. But not 8. More like 2-3.

I guess. As unpleasant as it is. There is a tipping point for when trying to push back natural selection becomes ignoring the greater good for the perceived benefit of the few. And then on top of that , realizing that the few aren’t safe or saved either. Just delayed. I hope we aren’t close to that point.

 

and I’m not speaking from a “ I know I’m safe spot “. I have a kid and a wife. So I have things to consider. I’m a guy who has been homeless technically As a kid. Or more accurately abandoned. Although I did have a roof and a couch indefinitely at my grandmothers. Didn’t have a bed of my own till my teens. And have adopted and am raising a nephew who has been really homeless , on the run from the authorities for truancy etc. has been hungry at a young age , had food shortage fears until around 5-6. And finally saved from a Meth lab. So I get the hoarding reflex more than most. I do. I want badly to fill my house with food , ammo and other supplies. I refuse. It shows a lack of faith in humanity. Although mine is being tested now.

 

 

but. I go outside. And I look around at spring coming everywhere. Peach orchard blooming behind me. I have daffodils up and blooming. All the weeds you can eat green in my yard. Lol. Animals everywhere. and I realize that this too will pass. Whether it takes me or not. but. What I don’t see a path from is the economic collapse it could bring in a very short time. . I don’t see a recovery from that. For any age group. I don’t think we’ve ever had a work shut down like this since the 20s. It took a world war to get out of that.

 

not trying to preach. Just share my worries. Hope it’s took as that. Of course in a perfect world I’d save all lives I can. But I know this world isn’t perfect. And I know that if we aren’t careful we will lose more lives trying to save a few.

[MtlJeff]

Around here many business are still open. The big businesses are mostly working from home. Small businesses like coffee shops or fast food places are takeout only but are still open.

For sure this is going to hurt the economy, but unless this becomes an Italy-like disaster here, I imagine we'll be on the rebound in ~ 2 months and I think our economy can probably handle that.

Hopefully, anyway

[bladehunter]

I’m rooting for your version for sure. essentials are still open here. But. Things like home stores , service contractors , retail stores not linked to food or cleaning. Ghost towns. May as well be closed. They’d lose less money closing.

and then you have business like mine. Where you have Accounts receivable that is routinely 30-60 days old because of the being married to a project thing. When times like these hit people just stop paying that bill. 08 we were forced to decrease employees 75% to survive. And stayed smaller after that . So my overhead is less now. But still. Loads of mom and pops don’t own their buildings etc like me and have little to back up and punt with.

[MtlJeff]

Definitely some of the businesses you mention are in a lot of trouble, non food related services for sure. Food places should do ok since they quickly moved into delivery models.

A lot of retail places have been wiped out by amazon already, sadly. We have big strip malls that are already ghost towns.

I'm hearing Quebec may force shut down more today. My wife's business will be affected as she has to pay rent etc . But its possible she can do her job via skype or conference call. Well see

[bpink21901]

Kohls I can live without, but its definitely a sign of the apocolypse that 4 (Mont, Chester, Del, Bucks as of last evening) counties in PA have closed their golf courses. I am not worried about the health effect to myself but I am worried about carrying it to elderly parents that need our care so I am being extra careful about social interaction these days.

[BeerPerHole]

Our club closed the clubhouse, gatherings, meetings, meals, etc. But, the slider window at the pro shop will be manned. I just walk by, wave, and step on the first tee...haha. Safest place in town, it seems. I like to declare in my loud Al Czervic voice, "OK, place your bets, place your bets!" (just kidding...only sometimes)

[Mych]

I sure hope for the optimistic ending. The pessimist in me still looks for the silver lining, as morbid as it may be. If it ends up as bad as it seems that it could, Social Security insolvency wouldn't be an issue any more. The boomer generation may take a substantial hit.

I'm hoping that there is a vaccine on the shelves before fall weather hits when respiratory illnesses get substantially worse. We may actually end up being lucky that the major spread happened as temperatures were warming, and this interestingly doesn't affect children as much as similar viruses have. As bad as it looks, it could still be much worse.

As I typed this, my kids school system sent a message saying schools will be closed through April 10. My kids are more likely to drive me insane than the Coronavirus is to kill me.

[PedronNiall]

The biggest thing is how it's all handled from the top down, and I don't mean strictly government leadership and the like, I mean people heading entities from universities to business. Realistically if they push policy to eliminate large gatherings, allow workers/students who can to work remotely, and offer whatever pay they are able to workers who can be furloughed we're out of the worst of this much sooner rather than later. WHO and CDC experts are saying the US/Canada are about 13-16 days behind Italy, so what we do right now is critical. If we go ahead and are proactive about social distancing--which a lot of communities are being--then we likely manage the "flatten the curve" strategy that determines whether or not critical care beds get overwhelmed. If we aren't proactive we end up like Italy and suddenly have neither the staff nor equipment to care for so many in such a short period. Remember that on top of this disease we're already dealing with a bad flu season and still have other emergent/critical care incidents that happy as a course of the day-to-day.

There's no reason at all to panic. The simple truth is that regardless of what entity X or Y choose to do on their own, people who are able to minimize their time in semi-crowded settings and who can avoid restaurants, offices, and what have you can make a difference here. With grocery pickup and delivery there's no reason to think that even on lock down people won't be able to get what they need, so what's the harm in staying home if you can other than some boredom? It's a matter of, as others have said in this thread, being concerned for those who won't do well if they get infected and doing what we can to try and lessen that. Regular supplies aren't going to run out, but if we stress the medical system too much we're going to make a bad situation untenable. Medical staff can't deal with the sick in any number if they're suddenly out of masks and beds because of a surge in patients.

These measures aren't to save a few, these measures are to make sure we only lose a few rather than seeing Italy repeat again and again all over the globe with countries losing 6%+ of those infected instead of 1% or less. Why ignore the measures the experts are saying will save lives when it very much doesn't harm you and lowers not only your risk of infection but everyone else's?

[bladehunter]

Yes. They will. Lol. And if you’re like me , you’re not prepared to also be their teacher. I have an 11 year old who does math way above my head. And today was first day of no school till the 6th. He had all work sent to his chrome book via google classroom. And I couldn’t have helped with half of it. But luckily he’s A smart and studious kid. So he was able to get himself going. I cannot Imagine if I had 3-4 . Gracious.

[MtlJeff]

I agree with everything, I just cant believe anyone truly has a 6% rate. They just arent testing enough people, and to be honest I'm not sure what testing people truly does right now anymore. We know a TON of people either have it or will get it and most wont end up in hospitals . We just have to distance ourselves not to overwhelm hospitals. This coronavirus count everyday is just driving people crazy , enough with the count, it just misinforms people about mortality rate and drives them to raid stores

In Canada they arent even testing everyone. We have like "400 cases"....suuuuuure.

Theres no way Italy has 25000 cases. They probably have 500,000

We cant say that 94 percent of cases are mild, (according to official data) and then claim to think we really know how many people have it. A mild case in Canada 100% is not being tested right now. And the data is coming from people that ARE being tested. The only country even testing everyone I think is South Korea.

 

[Mych]

I'm an engineer, so the math and science part aren't so bad. My temperament works fine with my oldest (almost 15), but my youngest (almost 13) is oil & water when it comes to helping her with schoolwork. It's like a WWE cage match, two enter, but at the end only one is left. I'm putting momma on the job of helping her for the next month. I'll teach my wife, then let her try to teach my daughter.

[bladehunter]

Agree there. The percentage of death is much much smaller than they are reporting , because the actual cases Are much much more than tested. Most will think it’s the flu and not go to the doc. I wouldn’t. Never have. Rest - fluids - rest- fluids ... that’s all that can be done. Treat the symptoms over the counter. That part is just common sense math.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Yep. I hear that. That’s my wife’s tactic .., as in she uses the “ he’s yours on this one “ statement. That means she doesn’t speak 11 year old boy as fluent as I do. And I think that’s exactly how it should be if the option is available.

[PedronNiall]

Italy is being forced to triage because they don't have enough beds. I'll let you read it in the words of someone who's actually there on the ground, though: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/03/13/opinion/coronavirus-cautionary-tale-italy-dont-do-what-we-did/

Do you really think they'd be leaving patients to die if it weren't serious? It's interesting, they've noted on several reports that in general people literally refuse to grasp the gravity of this situation unless it happens where they are or someone they know becomes infected.

We have WHO, CDC, and other officials saying day after day that it's a pandemic. We have cities in Spain and China and the US on lockdown protocols. We have a critical care design engineer in this thread telling us all how serious this is. Who do you think is right about the severity of the situation, you or the people dealing with it in multiple ways firsthand?

I don't know how you even have the gall to call them out as wrong. I can't even imagine the hubris it takes to sit behind a screen and armchair quarterback a situation as though entire organizations who dedicated their careers to learning about disease and treatment know less about what's happening than you do.

[Golfingfanatic]

In Switzerland we have a militia system for the army and a second organisation for civil protection. I have just been called for service and am currently doing entrance control at a hospital. This has been biggest call for service since the second world war.

So that's my job for the next few weeks.

[MtlJeff]

I don't really think you read my post very thoroughly if that's what you took from it. Never said it wasn't serious or that we were wrong to care or wrong to act as we are...

just there is many more cases than being reported and that the statistics are inaccurate because of it. And if statistics are wrong they dont provide much help.

I think you're response was a bit out of line, frankly, and I'm going to report it, which I pretty much never do here.

[MtlJeff]

In Canada we have no idea how many people really have it. I know doctors doing the tests, my good friends brother is also someone doing tests. They are all saying that we dont have enough tests to go around so they are not testing people with mild symptoms. I believe it is like this in many countries with the exception of maybe South Korea who is testing everyone who wants

So yea, a mild case, like we expect 90% of them to be, in many places as not being tested. And that throws the stats way off

I believe this pandemic is very serious, which my friend up there doesnt seem to grasp as he rushed through my post. But as serious as it is, I dont think it helps to release numbers showing rates that are inflated because it makes the hysteria worse. The same experts saying this is a big problem are also saying dont panic just be responsible and listen to the guidance.

[bladehunter]

Might want to pump those brakes. I didn’t read Jeff’s post to say any of that either. Not at all.

[bladehunter]

Agree on all fronts Jeff. And I’ll add. In doing some research on Italy’s medical system I was shocked to read it’s usually ranked inside the top 3 in the world. But after digging deeper that ranking comes from its availability and ease of use plus infant mortality rate. Which translates to it getting a high rating from the WHO for being available to all , not necessarily for its excellent or cutting edge research , or care. A fine example of this is this small fact. They have 12.5 ICU beds per 100k people. The united states has 34.2 per 100k people. Not to mention all of the leading research facilities that are here. ( a trial vaccine was administered yesterday to 40 people here ). The ICU beds are the key. That number is directly linked to the number of ventilators we have , etc. still sounds like not enough I’ll admit. But. The number of folks who will need a Vent are very small. In short. Comparing us to Italy makes little sense. We are at least half or less as concentrated of a population. Meaning square miles to people is a wide ratio compared to Italy. And we show to have way more than double the icu capacity. The math says it’s not the same. Bad ? Yes. Same ? No.

[GwrxMod]

Shutting this down. We're not going to babysit these Coronavirus topics.

Please get back to discussing golf.