Tour Pro Driving Distance

[Lark]

Tiger hits his 3-wood about 265, and the article said the persimmon is about as far, so 265 or so, and that using a modern ball. A good 30-40 yards less than his modern driver. Fairly near but less than Nicklaus in his prime. Sounds about right.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

TW has a 40 yard gap between his average driver and average 3w off the tee? Holy heck! I didn't know that!

[Lark]

32 yards:

“HOW FAR DOES TIGER WOODS HIT HIS GOLF CLUBS?(These yardages are averages, according to his caddie Joe LaCava)DRIVER: 297 YARDS3-WOOD: 265 YARDS5-WOOD: 245 YARDS ...”

[Ashley Schaeffer]

That’s incredible! Thanks very much.

[Shilgy]

If it’s like every other pro listing those are carry numbers, not total. Spends about right.

[Lark]

I think those are total distances, as the driver number matches the PGA Tour statistic for him for average total drive for 2019. Here are the rest of the numbers:

 

HOW FAR DOES TIGER WOODS HIT HIS GOLF CLUBS?(These yardages are averages, according to his caddie Joe LaCava)DRIVER: 297 YARDS3-WOOD: 265 YARDS5-WOOD: 245 YARDS3-IRON: 227 YARDS4-IRON: 215 YARDS5-IRON: 200 YARDS6-IRON: 186 YARDS7-IRON: 170 YARDS8-IRON: 157 YARDS9-IRON: 148 YARDSPITCHING WEDGE: 136 YARDSSAND WEDGE: 118 YARDS

[disco111]

Numbers reflecting averages are/could be misleading. According to the footage of Tiger playing in his 3 AM's, his 3wd went 300+. He also was hitting the 2 iron 260 carry. I'm sure we all have seen footage of that 6 iron over water that went 200+. The thing that I find questionable is that those particular shots were with equipment that were not up to today's specs. One would think that with the new modern equipment, distances would have increased. It's been noted on another thread that the senior tour guys have all had increases and hit it further than when they did in their prime. Hmmmmmmmmmm, Just saying........

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Wait. Hold up. Are you indirectly saying that comparing the averages of a 44yo with spinal fusion to prime Nicklaus’ absolute best might not be a valid comparison? Gotta be careful around here if you’re not going to show blind loyalty to Nicklaus in the face of common sense.

It’s like visiting grandparents: “Yeah, pops, I bet Hormel did put a lot more meat in the canned chili back then. They’re out to get ya!” It’s better to just let them think they’re right.

[disco111]

Wow my bad, I surely missed the part of my own post where i mentioned Nicklaus............Oh wait, I didn't Hmmmmmmmmmm!

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Yeah, I know. Once @Lark brought up Nicklaus in response to a TW article about a persimmon driver, every subsequent post must at least mention Nicklaus and/or that peak athleticism in golf occurred 50 years ago. Question those rules at your own peril.

[Shilgy]

So our opinions differ...no biggie.

Woods did not have enough rounds it appears to be on the stats for carry distance average. His average driver carry was 291.9 yards in 2018. Makes me doubt 265 would be total 3 wood.YMMV

[Lark]

Fowler and Justin Thomas have average driving distance about 5 yards more than Tiger. IMO, that doesn't change the rationale. @Shilgy According to Trackman data from 2015, the average three-wood carry for Tour pros is 243.https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/

[smashdn]

It tends to come back definitely. You can hit a heel cut that starts way left and finishes right and is more or less straight on the target line but you give up some distance. The converse however, hitting it out on the toe and bringing it back to the left from right of target line you lose a bunch of distance. On the magnitude of 30 yards from a shot hit flush for me.

 

You can certainly hit a drive with persimmon 300 yards. I have done it and handed my driver off to another that did it. But how you get there is different. And that difference does matter. Modern clubs you can go high with little to no spin and get it out there mostly carry. With persimmon I have found it to be a lower ball flight that produces more roll from hook spin that is needed to maximize distance.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Agreed. I notice the same whenever I try my old stuff on the garage sim. The high bomb is kind of not a thing with the old stuff (at least when I swing it). That's with wood. I have a rad old Titleist PT 8.5* with a x100, and that thing still gets the ball speed close to modern on a center strike. Spin is high, and off-center goes nowhere, though! Still can get around with it, but it's different.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

There’s a good bit of wisdom here.
Hitting old equipment is like driving an old car. If you put on new tires, you might be able to get one of those old muscle cars to perform quite well. Old tires just won’t cut it. Lol.
A better comparison is to manufacture old designs now fit them properly , then see how far new players can hit.
@oikos1 , If I accidentally hit “flag”, sorry... did not intend to.

[Shilgy]

And based on the tour stats out of 188 players 275 is 130th last year. With benign conditions-no wind helping or hurting and flat ground- do you believe then that over half of the tour would be worried about a needed 250 carry with their three wood? With a 243 average you think most would lay up?

https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.y2019.html

[aenemated]

He actually says in that Golf Digest "My Game" series that he's comfortable hitting a 3W around 300. He was talking about the difference in equipment now vs. when he came on tour.

[Shilgy]

Now that I believe, you just have to convince @Lark

[Lark]

He is just getting his driver to 300 nowadays under normal conditions. But sure, show some video of him hitting his three wood that far and I’ll believe it. There were some players who could hit a persimmon driver 300 on occasion back 40-50 years ago.

[aenemated]

I mean, that's what he SAID. Episode 2 of "My Game", around 2:20. Just re-watched to make sure I wasn't mis-remembering.

296 is the actual number he mentions.

I guess you can call bullshit on the guy if ya want.

[Golfjack]

296 was his driving average for 2019 which I’m sure includes some 3 woods and driver. It’s like theoretical he can hit 296 3 wood, but not in a tournament.

[Lark]

I believe 296 was his average for measured holes, which are the two per round that the tour selects and which are chosen to be holes that the player is most likely to hit driver.

[Golfjack]

I agree, just saying it might include 3 wood since it is more conservative, but driver brings up the average anyway. We all saw Tiger hit 180 ball speeds when he first came back, but the results were really off. He had success after he turned it down to 170 ball speed with his driver.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Haha, right. I agree with your assessment of many of the arguments made in this and similar threads.

What’s actually happened, is more players are capable of hitting like Tiger in his heyday, then they say it’s the equipment and not the fact that more players are as fit and strong as Tiger?

I like to compare this phenomenon with olympic sports, where all the athletes have gotten close to peak performance. Every now and then you get a freakish athlete such as Usain Bolt, who sets a record, which I predict to be broken again some day along with the entire field catching up.

It’s the nature of the beast. Athletes are not one of a kind and somehow “the mold was broken after their birth”. They are rare, but not that rare.

Equipment is limited already and has been limited. Athletes are simply getting better.

[jons1]

Fitness

I think folks quickly figured out that in a basic fitness program, where you increase flexibility, increase core strength, and work on explosiveness, that it will have an impact on how fast you can move the club. It's just common sense. The evolution of fitness has made a difference.

Shafts

When shafts were noodles, e.g. hickory, brute force was never going to produce great results. With the introduction of steel shaft, you could swing as hard as you wanted and it really didn't hurt dispersion. With the introduction of lighter graphite shafts that are nearly as stable as metal, you could take that same smash it mentality to the next level. So the evolution of the golf shaft has made a difference.

Golf Balls

Solid golf balls certainly optimize distance, as well as better ability to dial in perfect launch conditions. It's just a fact. Even if it's just 5-10%, that's a lot in terms of total distance. The evolution of the ball has made a difference in total distance, and a reduction in spin from the driver to allow for a more aggressive swing.

Course Maintenance

And finally, the maintenance of the courses is unlike anything seen before. The precision of mowing is next level. Many courses have slopes (e.g. Augusta) that were never designed with the idea the grass could be cut so short and precisely. The evolution of course maintenance has also made a difference.

 

When you add up all of these differences, you've got a game that is played in the air instead of the ground, and players that produce longer distances overall. It's pretty straight forward. You can't change one thing to reverse this as there are many factors at play.

Here are the real questions...

Has it made the game better or worse?

Has it made competition better or worse?

How can you stop innovation and evolution? Should you attempt to do so?

Should golf be played under different rules for equipment or play during competition?

Does any ruling body truly have the power to do anything to reverse this if you believe it's negative?

I think you have to answer the basic questions that either make this an executable plan, or simply more cheese to go with the whine.

 

Personally, I don't think you can stop innovation or evolution, and attempting to do so is a waste of time, effort, and money. The people and equipment used to play golf will evolve, and the game itself must evolve with it. The most you can do at this point is draw a line in the sand with the things you can control (like C.O.R.), and uphold that standard. But don't be surprised if it still doesn't stop the evolution of players and innovation of equipment.

[gvogel]

Does any ruling body have the power to reverse this?

Of course the two ruling bodies do. In 1931 the USGA rolled the ball back. Some would say they over reacted, and after that year players were mostly universal in going back to a heavier ball. But the ruling bodies have a history of regulating equipment. The R&A permitted higher COR drivers for a period (remember the ERC?), and then dropped the COR to fall in line with the USGA.

I think the bigger question is: should courses continue to be lengthened? Or should the players and ruling bodies just concede that the nature of the game has been changed? I am in favor of a roll back to preserve the historic nature of the game.

[jons1]

 

there will either be fewer golf courses than exist today (those that can afford the cost of length), or shorter courses are going to be considered adequate competition. The land and maintenance costs will reach a tipping point making any more length unattainable and/or unsustainable imo. I think that may be the #1 argument for a rollback, and it’s certainly not subjective.

[gvogel]

Rory McIlroy, for one, agrees with you.

[Lark]

I just don’t see much strength in this theory, based on facts and correlations. Distance took a big jump with the 1990s and 2000s equipment technology jump. Before that and after that, more gradual equipment advances caused more gradual distance increases over time. There were fit players years ago. Are more players incorporating more fitness now than years ago? Seems like it but nothing conclusively evidences that greater fitness results in greater distance for Tour pros. Yet when today’s pros hit yesterday’s equipment, they don’t hit it farther than pros of that day did. When you look at senior tour players hitting it today in their 50s and 60s compared to in their 20s, that tells you something too.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Steel shafts were not noodles.

Courses being lengthened have nothing to do with players shooting 50s, but everything to do with the egos of the owners and architects who claim they’ve made courses unplayable by anyone other than longest hitting tour pros.

Ridiculous to say the least.

Agree, the game is evolving.