Tour Pro Driving Distance

[oikos1]

I'm not the get off my lawn type but what exactly is "wrong" with the game? I just played 4 of the last 5 days and loved absolutely every minute.

[OrangeGravy]

Is distance really a draw for viewers though? Do more people watch long drive comps compared to the LPGA? Are they even televised most of the time? The LPGA doesn't draw as many viewers because it doesn't employ the best golfers in the world. Has nothing to do with distance.

[storm319]

Distance is part of the criteria in defining the “best”. If you look at many common stats between the PGA vs LPGA the largest variance is driving distance/accuracy and several others are indirectly effected by distance.

[Shilgy]

How long is the par 5? If it’s driver 7 iron today it was always a two shot hole for most players. Some hit woods in and some irons. Today’s field is the equivalent, length wise, of a field with Jack, Weiskopf, Bean and Dent. Just complaining that it’s a 7 iron is like complaining about a sub 300 yard “par4” being hit with fairway woods.

[Sean2]

I agree. I recently turned 65 and play the senior tees. A lot more fun hitting irons in to greens then fairway woods. The game is hard enough as it is.

[Sean2]

I was watching a tournament a couple years ago and Kevin Tway hit a drive 302 carry into the rough, where it pretty much stopped dead. Ryan Moore hit next, his drive carried 276, found the fairway, and he was 20 yards past Tway. It's my understanding that some venues cut and roll the fairways so the pros hit prodigious drives as it makes for good TV.

[Sean2]

It's possible. I have a friend who's ball speed in the the mid-180s with driver. He has no problem hitting an 8-iron 170+ yards.

[Sean2]

Or because they hit the ball straighter?

[Sean2]

I like to watch good golf, no matter who is playing.

[Shilgy]

All of those wishing for a rollback also advocate the firm fast fairways. It’s not just a PGA Tour tv thing.

[gvogel]

So, what if there was a second ball, reduced distance, so that great players could play a 6,900 yard course like Seminole and hit fairway woods on par 5's; and have the greens stimp at 9 or 10?

[Shilgy]

So you want Seminole to play shorter and the greens slower than the match today? Why?

 

What would be your estimate, really, of how many courses are affected? The truly elite, the tour, are never ever going to visit clubs that don’t want them or do not have room for fans and other infrastructure. So Seminole and Pine Valley and the like are out. Any club that has the room for infrastructure is not short meaning if they have the room they have used some of it for added length over the years. So what are you really attempting to accomplish?

 

Edited to add, the club player does not need nor desire a rollback.

[disco111]

I've been watching the older AM's from the 90's and all the USGA opens and whatever else they find in the vault and I've somewhat had an epiphany. Everybody at the elite/semi elite levels since the mid 90's have been long. Watching Tiger at 18 hitting a 3wd 300 plus and guys hitting 8 and 9 irons from 180. Now I'm wondering why at this late date in the game why there is such a debate on distance? If there is a real problem it should have been addressed over 25 years ago. Apparently the folks at the USGA must have been out of the office that day when the memo came down and was filed by an under paid clerical worker and overlooked. Just something that made me go Hmmmmm!!

[gvogel]

Well, disco, you are absolutely right. The USGA had a technical director named Frank Hannigan who was a buffoon - google the putter he came up with. But more important, Frank Hannigan said that 460 cc drivers would not change the game. Well, they did, and so did the modern ball combined with 460 cc. And titanium made it much easier to increase COR - and the USGA accepted a much higher COR value than historical clubs (persimmon). Hence, the modern game that bears no resemblance to historical golf.

Hey, i get it that the modern game is easier for beginners and old fogies like me. But for the very best, the old game separated the men from the others. But disregard that, the old game could be played on a 6,800 yard course and challenge the best. The better the technology gets, and the faster the hitters can hit the ball, the more need for longer golf courses. I think that is bad for the game.

[Lark]

In the 90s Tiger was way ahead of almost everyone else. Now you have 50+ who can bomb it and some that are enormously long. Look at today’s match. All of them regularly drove it 320 and Wolff hit 356 and 368 on his long drives.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I watched four guys today who bore absolutely no resemblance to nearly all players from the 1990s standing still, let alone when they put the club in motion.

[storm319]

I think you are referring to Frank Thomas (Hannigan was the executive director in the 80’s).

In terms of COR, the USGA acted when there was a noticeable gain which also coincided with a sizable head size increase (1998 release of the Ping TISI was the instigator).

In terms of the ball, all regulations were in place by the mid-70’s and no one seemed to have a problem until Titleist adopted synthetic covers (1994 Professional) and shifted to solid cores (2000 ProV1) which resulted in noticeable reductions in spin on Tour within the long existing USGA limits even though Titleist was a relatively late adopter of these new technologies.

In terms of club head size, I agree that the USGA should have set a lower limit sooner (1995 release of the Callaway GBB should have been the instigator), but that alone would not have limited certain players at the elite level very much. Aside from this, I believe that the USGA did a good job of effectively limiting the equipment influence on distance.

BTW, the 2013 US Open at Merion seemed to be a greater challenge at <7000 yds than the 2017 US Open at Erin Hills which played ~7800 yds. The perpetuating idea that distance is the only way to challenge the best players in the world is a big part of the problem...

[Lark]

Except not everyone wants to see super narrow fairways and extreme rough as the only way to keep scores in check. Makes for one dimensional target golf.

[storm319]

So you want rough to be penalizing but not too penalizing? Greater emphasis on accuracy but don’t want everyone to be too accurate because that is boring, right?

[Lark]

Accuracy and having to decide where to play your ball are not mutually exclusive.

[gvogel]

My mistake. Frank Thomas. Hannigan was a good guy.

[smashdn]

.25 to .5 a stroke I think is about right. Tall enough to limit spin and create some uncertainty of flight and how the ball will behave when it lands, not so penalizing that it is just an automatic wedge out.

Let the fairways be firm and run where landing your ball in a particular spot is required to keep it out of that rough and accuracy is rewarded. Somehow bring more of the characteristics of persimmon heads into the modern equipment so that you can't always go over or go high and stop it without giving up serious distance, where hitting it in the center is paramount and where less than perfect strikes are significantly shorter and don't just result in long pushes and pulls.

Keep the greens dry and around 10 and they will probably be easier to maintain than wet and 13.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Is that it? As long as we can make the game more difficult for all of us to play, but more “interesting” to watch on TV (which, as yesterday proved, doesn’t really show the whole story), it’ll make a few people happy. I say, let’s go for it!

[smashdn]

@Ashley Schaeffer How does what I proposed regarding "Tour Pro Driving Distance" make the game more difficult for all of us to play? It was said within the context of the pro game only.

Would you prefer the other option that was posited? "super narrow fairways and extreme rough" Seems as though that as well would make it "more difficult for all of us to play." If you are attempting to apply what I was saying to everyone (as I think you may be) then also please make the previous "fixes" apply to everyone equally as well.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Oops! I thought we were over bifurcation. Didn’t realize it was still on the table. My bad. Unrelated, but have you heard about this bubble shaft thing TM is trying? Supposed to be a game changer.

[smashdn]

Bifurcate the course conditions or bifurcate the equipment. You end up picking one. My preference would be to play the course that the pros play since I already am not playing their equipment.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Because courses simply cannot be set up more difficult when pros are in town. Not mowing = changing all equipment.

[smashdn]

That's a gross oversimplification. It is more than just not mowing. "Narrowing fairways" as someone stated earlier can be, and most places is, more than just not mowing. What do you do when your fairway grasses are not the same type as your roughs? Do you add a second or third HOC because you have grown out the primary rough but you want to maintain different playing options around the greens? You have 4-5" primary rough but you may not want 5" rough right up next to a green collar.

Narrowing fairways can also take hazards out of play. That fairway bunker that balls used to run into is now an island in the rough. Balls stop well short of it. The backside of another fairway bunker offered a slope that propelled the ball further down the fairway. Cut as rough that benefit is negated, the temptation to carry the bunker is now gone, the penalty for missing the fairway is too great, so now there are irons in everyone's hands off the tee.

 

You have to balance the risk and rewards in both directions to present compelling options to offer shades of grey. When there is too little risk there is no option but to play one way. When there is too little reward there is but one option to play as well.

 

I simply cannot wrap my mind around how there is a disparity between wanting to see a pro swing the same type of club as me but be totally okay with playing a wholly different course as me. If I were asked to choose which one I would give up today, I would give up that we are lead to believe they play the game with the same equipment as us. We play under the same equipment rules only. The rules are the only common denominator. And that is an odd group of rules to hitch your wagons to given that most golfers seem ok with raking putts, improving lies here and there and not enforcing down and distance penalties as prescribed by the rules that are followed by the pros.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Cool. Coolcoolcool.

[Lark]

Great post. Bethpage would probably be ranked 20 spots higher if they widened fairways, especially on holes where the fairway bunkers are ten yards off the fairways surrounded by rough.