Tour Pro Driving Distance

[bladehunter]

Lol. Please let us know what “ facts “ prove your stance there ? If it’s same same as you say , why do sooo many choose the helping hands of “ hit it anywhere on the face “ putters and the like ?

of course today’s player is skilled. But I don’t know how you’d prove more or less skilled either way. Anecdotal evidence suggests players today are less skilled because of conditions and equipment , but even I won’t really call that fact. Because I can’t prove it. But that also means you can’t prove they are better. There’s not even anecdotal evidence on your side.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

A pro doesn’t miss the way we do, that’s the flaw in thinking. Their absolute worst shots fall well within our best.

[DFS PFD]

True, these guys simply can't hit a bad shot!

[gvogel]

I have seen a highly respected pro (by some) putt right off a green!

[gvogel]

From my perspective, there is no question that many of today's elite players have skill equal to, or greater than players in former eras.

That is not the question for me. The question that I address is what happens to the game when the best need to play at 7,700 yards instead of 6,700 yards.

[bladehunter]

Not universally true. Do tell how a miss isn’t a miss ? This is humans hitting a ball with a stick. The flaw in thinking is that they are godlike and somehow don’t poop regularly if they eat.

the am world is full of people who hit it as crisp , as far abs as accurate as nearly anyone. The mental side which includes time spent on game is woefully underrated when comparing the top 1% of players on earth. Hint. That includes a ton of amateurs.

[Sean2]

I wonder if those 170 yard 8-irons come from simply the way the angle of the face hits the ball? Perhaps a professional might hit his 8-iron 170, since at impact the loft isn't that of an 8-iron but more like a 6-iron?

[mokedaddy]

One could easily argue the mental side required now is tougher than in the past. More stimulation, bigger crowds, more money and better fields of players. I definitely agree there are a lot of players that have the physical skill to compete but are a mess between the ears.

[bubbagump]

This site used to be so dope,. Now threads like this with a couple people just draining away an entire conversation, is the norm.

[bladehunter]

Jump in any time. I agree there are a lot of odd new twitter like posters. But I don’t see why a conversation is against anything good ?

[BeerPerHole]

Every time I hear about this I can't help but think that people are looking to what the top elite do on the course and using it to justify changes to the game as a whole. I'm no WXRr. I get out there and hit him 230 to 280 off the tee. That puts me well past a majority of the other weekend warriors I play with. Still...the courses we are on (from the white tees) still eat me alive. And, it remains that the biggest obstacle to growing the game is how difficult it is. Golf is a hard game. So, maybe we shouldn't make it harder for all us millions of shlubs who play it for the fun of it. It's like taking all basketball rims and raising them up to 12 feet...

[bubbagump]

Clearly arguing with others for pages on pages is a conversation to you, but no thanks.

[smashdn]

But yet when you watch the Shell's WWOG videos you see more than a couple pop-ups and snap hooks. So were those guys not as good as today's pros? Not care as much since it was an exhibition match? Or was the equipment far less forgiving?

[smashdn]

"Golf is a hard game. So, maybe we shouldn't make it harder for all us millions of shlubs who play it for the fun of it."

 

Move your goal posts. Golf is a hard game. Find enjoyment in the game in how you are able to play it. Enjoy the good shots and shrug off the bad shots. Don't worry about score and play to your own standards.

 

Match play is a wonderful thing. Wish there was more of it about in the US.

[bladehunter]

I think technically it’s called debate.

[storm319]

I believe what he is referring to is that amateurs benefit from forgiveness far more than pros due to the disparity in impact consistency. Any global rollback would more negatively impact amateurs than pros since amateurs use the "help" more (and bifurcation in an attempt to minimize amateur impact would also be damaging to the game).

Also, what is with this obsession over hickory which has not been relevant for over 80 years? And why stop there and instead compare modern equipment to the field hockey sticks and wood balls that were used in the 15th century? The reality is with each paradigm shift in equipment in this sport came holdouts that resisted change and complained to no end based on optics more than anything. Same old argument, different day...

As for the continued "why not" argument, why don't we see if it actually works in another application :)

Me: @Jack_H should be banned from the forum.

Mod: Could you please provide a reason why this user should be banned?

Me: Why shouldn't the user be banned?

Mod: Good point. User banned.

[storm319]

and that modern equipment sure helped on those shots...

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Pop ups aren’t from less forgiving clubs. I doubt Jack popped up much. You just have an entire field of Jacks. :-)

[storm319]

What exactly are the criteria that determines that 6700 is an optimal length? If land, water, maintenance, and environmental costs are really the primary concern, then 6700 is likely too long as well. Also, Merion and Riviera have proven that you don't need to lengthen a course to provide a challenge.

Why was the USGA fine with the massive increase (56%) at Shinnecock that occurred prior to 1990 vs the relatively small increase (7%) that has occurred since?

1896 US Open - 4,423 yards

1986 US Open - 6,912 yards

2018 US Open - 7,440 yards

[storm319]

"Move your goal posts"

Oh the irony of this statement

p.s. I do agree that there should be more match play format on the PGA Tour.

[bladehunter]

Nice try. This thread is about pro distance. Not AM. We aren’t discussing an AM rollback here. There’s already a dumpster fire for that.

for the forgiveness argument. We’re not talking about a pro vs joe six pack. For instance. Let’s say pro vs D1 college kid. Literally no measurable difference in mishit or forgiveness needs. None.

 

and the rest is pretty funny. No answer so we start to jiggle the spoon aye ?

[smashdn]

Explain the irony.

 

I fail to see how tempering your personal golf game expectations to you own abilities and capabilities is related to the topic at hand.

[storm319]

Rollback = moving the goal posts

[smashdn]

Then so is moving a tee box. Which oddly enough is at the opposite end of the goal line in golf.

 

(And here's a hint, everything you find irony in that you quoted was in reference to an individuals remark regarding amateur golf and attracting people to the game. Not really germane to the pro discussion at hand.)

[bladehunter]

That’s the trap. They mention the AM game And or a rollback and goat you into commenting on it . Just as you do they swoop in and say “ and there you go moving the goal posts. Ban him !” When all the while the subject was brought up by someone who was having a hard time explaining how adjusting equipment or ball for Pros would hurt , IF they aren’t seeing the benefit of forgiveness , as that same poster/s have so clearly touted. It’s very interesting to me that you can both not see benefit from something , and not be able to afford to lose it .

[smashdn]

I'm the one who said move the goal posts though. In the context of your own game. Poster said golf was hard and we should make it easier for people to get into as it is a barrier. I said you need to find a way to personally get some enjoyment out of your own game and time on the course no matter how good or bad you might be. Score and par are pretty terrible measures for 90% of amateur golfers. Bogey score would be better if you must choose score.

 

I started just trying to hit good golf shots and execute what I am trying to pull off. When it goes in the gunch it just provides me an opportunity to make a miraculous recovery. If I pull it off, great. If I don't, it was a hard ask to begin with.

 

What I said had nothing to do with the OP topic but was in a response to making the game easier as a whole. Chess would be a lot easier for beginners too if it weren't for all the rules about moving pieces. But I don't see them dumbing it down to get more people excited about chess.

[storm319]

The reason references to amateurs keep coming up is that the USGA has historically been firmly against bifurcation. In order for them to avoid that and still rollback for the elite only, they need the cooperation of the PGA tour and PGA of America for the local condition approach to even be realistic. If they don't get that cooperation (real possibility considering that both organizations voiced opposition to the USGA's effort), a mass rollback of the ball becomes a real possibility. We could end up in a situation where the PGA Tour/PGA of America branch off on to their own set of regulations. Even you can't honestly say that different equipment standards for USGA/R&A sanctioned events vs PGA Tour sanctioned events is more desirable than what exists today under one set of unified rules.

If you are pushing for any change, you need to consider the potential consequences.

[bladehunter]

I stated very clearly my opinion in the other thread. That it should be a hard freeze as is. And not be bifurcated. Which means figure out how to not let the face get more forgiving ( larger sweet spot ) and to not let cog move to allow for higher launch and lower spin with a downward AOA. That’s where pros pickup carry and keep control. And I believe there’s more room to grow at the pro level.

 

I didn’t say that because I changed my mind that it’s jumped the shark at the pro level. But because of some first hand experiences with “ average players “ myself. They can’t afford to hit it less. But that doesn’t mean that some don’t hit it too far for courses to play as intended. It’s not a one or the other argument. I can see that the shark is jumped. Realize I can’t rewind that , And yet know that we don’t need to jump it again.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Agree. What’s funny is the folks arguing for reduction are mostly arguing for argument’s sake.

Makes no sense to find a few examples for their arguments while it adversely affects the vast majority of players?

[storm319]

I am interested in your thoughts on what the USGA could regulate in order to "freeze" further gains from equipment without rolling anything back (keep in mind that the USGA's ability to test these attributes fast and efficiently would also be a necessity). If a "freeze" like this was possible, then I assume you would be ok with gains based on players swinging faster as long as equipment was not the reason for the gain?

BTW, I would have no problem with any new regulation as long as there is no rollback of something that the USGA/R&A previously deemed conforming.