Starting the round after having played two holes

[naval2006]

Last weekend there was a late 9 comp on Sunday.  They were playing holes 10 to 18.  There's these two guys who unknowingly hit on hole nro. 1.  They play 1 and 2 and someone comes up and tell them the tournament was 10 to 18.  They players proceeded to the 10th and started playing the round.  After the round there was a member of the Committee telling them they had to be dq for hitting from the wrong hole.  I'd never heard about that before.  I'm almost sure the Committee guy was wrong.  I let the experts talk.

 

Alex

Edited January 19, 2021 by naval2006

[Sawgrass]

3 hours ago, naval2006 said:

Last weekend there was a late 9 comp on Sunday.  They were playing holes 10 to 18.  There's these two guys who unknowingly hit on hole nro. 1.  They play 1 and 2 and someone comes up and tell them the tournament was 10 to 18.  They players proceeded to the 10th and started playing the round.  After the round there was a member of the Committee telling them they had to be dq for hitting from the wrong hole.  I'd never heard about that before.  I'm almost sure the Committee guy was wrong.  I let the experts talk.

 

Alex

Assuming it was stroke play, 6.1b(2) seems to DQ them — for hitting from outside the teeing area when “playing” 10.

[bladehunter]

Was there a preset tee time ?  If so where they late ?  If not. Maybe they just practiced on 1 and 2  before the round began? 

[Colin L]

 

 

40 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Assuming it was stroke play, 6.1b(2) seems to DQ them — for hitting from outside the teeing area when “playing” 10.

I don't see how you get to  a DQ.  Agreed they were starting their round when they drove off the 1st tee and so played outside the teeing area, but then  they corrected their mistake by playing from the 10th . When they did that, they had not started another hole of the competition course.  2 stroke penalty and none of the strokes played before that to count.  

Edited January 19, 2021 by Colin L

[Sawgrass]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

If 

The round comprised holes 10 to 18.  

 

I don't see how you get to  a DQ.  Agreed they were starting their round when they drove off the 1st tee and so played outside the teeing area, but but when they were alerted to their mistake they then corrected their mistake by playing from the 10th .  2 stroke penalty and none of the strokes played before that to count.  

Unless you consider them having started the second hole when teeing off on hole #2:

 

“If the player does not correct the mistake before making a stroke to begin another hole or . . .”

[rogolf]

I can get to DQ by either of two methods - as Sawgrass said, beginning another hole (they played both 1 and 2) or by practice strokes made on the course before the round.

[naval2006]

27 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Was there a preset tee time ?  If so where they late ?  If not. Maybe they just practiced on 1 and 2  before the round began? 

Nope. Late Sundays is just show up and tee off in summer. 

[naval2006]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

I can get to DQ by either of two methods - as Sawgrass said, beginning another hole (they played both 1 and 2) or by practice strokes made on the course before the round.

I thought 1 and 2 were not part of the track for the tournament. That’s why it seems a bit confusing.  Are those holes considered part of the course anyway?

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

Nope. Late Sundays is just show up and tee off in summer. 

I figured. Ours is same way in the summer Lots of guys group up together. But you can technically go inside of about a 3 hour window.  Payout next time unless you want to wait around.  
 

then I’d say no problems.  They simply practiced before they played. My opinion. You can’t call foul on something that has no set rules. The “ course “ for that day was only 9 holes and didn’t include 1-2.   Suppose a course had 36 holes and you played 9 that morning on the other course.  Are you prevented from playing a comp on the other side that afternoon ?  Nope. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by bladehunter

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I figured. Ours is same way in the summer Lots of guys group up together. But you can technically go inside of about a 3 hour window.  Payout next time unless you want to wait around.  
 

then I’d say no problems.  They simply practiced before they played. My opinion. You can’t call foul on something that has no set rules. The “ course “ for that day was only 9 holes and didn’t include 1-2.   Suppose a course had 36 holes and you played 9 that morning on the other course.  Are you prevented from playing a comp on the other side that afternoon ?  Nope. 

There are set Rules - the Rules of golf.  Would a ball played from 10 through 18, accidentally or otherwise, to anywhere on 1 through 9 be out of bounds, ie, off the course?

[Colin L]

18 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I can get to DQ by either of two methods - as Sawgrass said, beginning another hole (they played both 1 and 2) or by practice strokes made on the course before the round.

I wasn't seeing this as practice because their intention was to start their round and their understanding at the time was that they were so doing.  Debatable,  of course.  But if so, they played outside the teeing area and continued in that error.  That they made one of the strokes from the 2nd tee is to my mind  irrelevant because I read  starting another hole in terms of 6.1b(2) as meaning  a hole designated as part of the  round.

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Colin L

[Colin L]

16 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I figured. Ours is same way in the summer Lots of guys group up together. But you can technically go inside of about a 3 hour window.  Payout next time unless you want to wait around.  
 

then I’d say no problems.  They simply practiced before they played. My opinion. You can’t call foul on something that has no set rules. The “ course “ for that day was only 9 holes and didn’t include 1-2.   Suppose a course had 36 holes and you played 9 that morning on the other course.  Are you prevented from playing a comp on the other side that afternoon ?  Nope. 

As Rogolf has just indicated, wherever they played within the boundaries was on the course.  If we reject playing outside of the teeing in favour of practice, that practising was without doubt done on the course and. DQ follows.

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Colin L

[Sawgrass]

2 minutes ago, Colin L said:

I wasn't seeing this as practice because their intention was to start their round and their understanding at the time was that they were so doing.  Debatable,  of course.  But if so, they played outside the teeing area and continued in that error.  That they made one of the strokes from the 2nd tee is to my mind  irrelevant because I read  starting another hole in terms of 6.1b(2) as meaning  a hole designated as part of the  round.

 

IMO when they teed off on #2 (instead of #11) they began the second hole irrespective of the fact that they did not hole out on the first hole (#10).
 

Another DQ!

[bladehunter]

12 minutes ago, Colin L said:

As Rogolf has just indicated, wherever they played within the boundaries was on the course.  If we reject playing outside of the teeing in favour of practice, that practising was without doubt done on the course and. DQ follows.

 

“ wherever they played within the boundaries was on the course “.....

 

are you saying boundaries of the 18 holes or the property?   Does the rules in fact name the course as the holes to be played or all the holes on the property?  Real question.  If it specifies then sure. I concede.  
 

but on the flip side.  If no tee time or hole is specified , how do we judge it ?  Intent as they state it when asked ?    And if not where’s the line ?  Can we DQ for Practice the day before ? 
 

seems like a clear lack of organization on the event planner , and them trying to cover up their short comings .  Now if these things are on a hard card or sheet.  Blame the players.  

Edited January 19, 2021 by bladehunter

[Augster]

It is a 9 hole tourney on holes 10-18, so the holes 1-9 are not on the “course”. Since they didn’t have a tee time, I.e. a designated time to start their tourney round, they didn’t tee off on the “wrong hole” or “outside the teeing ground”. They weren’t even on the course. 
 

No harm no foul. No DQ. 
 

It’s exactly the same if there is, say, an executive course next to the real course. Players can play and practice all they want on the executive course before a round on the real, defined, course. They are playing on a different “course”. 

[bladehunter]

21 minutes ago, rogolf said:

There are set Rules - the Rules of golf.  Would a ball played from 10 through 18, accidentally or otherwise, to anywhere on 1 through 9 be out of bounds, ie, off the course?

As shown on TV last week between hole 18 and 10 -  it’s possible.  Lol 

 

 

Opinion is that they were to play a 9 hole course that day.  They practiced on another 9 hole course.  They could nkt and didn’t play 18 holes on this competition, so why is this anymore aground of the rules than playing one side of a 36 or 72 hole course before playing another side for competition?  
 

point me please to reading that shows a course to be only 18 holes . I’d like to know this for sure . 

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

As shown on TV last week between hole 18 and 10 -  it’s possible.  Lol 

 

 

Opinion is that they were to play a 9 hole course that day.  They practiced on another 9 hole course.  They could nkt and didn’t play 18 holes on this competition, so why is this anymore aground of the rules than playing one side of a 36 or 72 hole course before playing another side for competition?  
 

point me please to reading that shows a course to be only 18 holes . I’d like to know this for sure . 

When we conduct a competition on 18 holes of a 36 hole facility, we make sure that the status of the non-playing 18 holes is clearly stated, just like the US Open at Winged Foot, where the other "course" was out of bounds - clearly marked and clearly communicated - a responsibility of the Committee.

It doesn't say anywhere that a "course" is only 18 holes.  There are two pertinent definitions, shown below:

Course

The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:

• All areas inside the boundary edge are in bounds and part of the course.

• All areas outside the boundary edge are out of bounds and not part of the course.

• The boundary edge extends both up above the ground and down below the ground.

The course is made up of the five defined areas of the course.

Round

18 or fewer holes played in the order set by the Committee.

[Sawgrass]

I don’t see how anyone can disagree with what Rogolf set out.

[bladehunter]

13 minutes ago, rogolf said:

When we conduct a competition on 18 holes of a 36 hole facility, we make sure that the status of the non-playing 18 holes is clearly stated, just like the US Open at Winged Foot, where the other "course" was out of bounds - clearly marked and clearly communicated - a responsibility of the Committee.

It doesn't say anywhere that a "course" is only 18 holes.  There are two pertinent definitions, shown below:

Course

The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:

• All areas inside the boundary edge are in bounds and part of the course.

• All areas outside the boundary edge are out of bounds and not part of the course.

• The boundary edge extends both up above the ground and down below the ground.

The course is made up of the five defined areas of the course.

Round

18 or fewer holes played in the order set by the Committee.

So.   Now we need to know if this is a course who has laid   out side by side holes or a modern track where they’re two separate 9s that go tee box to green only ? 
 

If it’s all connected and the front 9 isn’t marked OB I see what you mean -BUT- I still say it’s on the committee to state this as you said about other courses. The rules of golf don’t seem to spell it out. It just spells out the committees duty and power. 
 

 All courses do not mark adjoining Courses holes as OB.  I’ve played courses that don’t even mark the driving range as OB.  

[rogolf]

4 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

So.   Now we need to know if this is a course who has laid   out side by side holes or a modern track where they’re two separate 9s that go tee box to green only ? 
 

If it’s all connected and the front 9 isn’t marked OB I see what you mean -BUT- I still say it’s on the committee to state this as you said about other courses. The rules of golf don’t seem to spell it out. It just spells out the committees duty and power. 
 

 All courses do not mark adjoining Courses holes as OB.  I’ve played courses that don’t even mark the driving range as OB.  

Committee decisions (or lack thereof)!

[bladehunter]

23 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Committee decisions (or lack thereof)!

Agree.  Thats what I see here in my limited opinion. A committee who doesn’t set out with clear goals and boundaries needs a very clear statement from the rules to say DQ , in my opinion.  
 

consider this too. The mention of practicing on course before competition is to keep folks from Practicing the conditions of play , yes ?   So if it’s not a hole to be played that they hit from , this idea remains intact , again. In my opinion.  
 

 

[rogolf]

34 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Agree.  Thats what I see here in my limited opinion. A committee who doesn’t set out with clear goals and boundaries needs a very clear statement from the rules to say DQ , in my opinion.  
 

consider this too. The mention of practicing on course before competition is to keep folks from Practicing the conditions of play , yes ?   So if it’s not a hole to be played that they hit from , this idea remains intact , again. In my opinion.  
 

 

The Rules have a different opinion. They say, for stroke play, "A player must not practise on the course before a round, except that a player may practise putting or chipping on or near his or her first teeing area and practise on any pradtice area."

The Rules do not specify the reasons for the practise, they just forbid it.

Edited January 19, 2021 by rogolf

[bladehunter]

5 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The Rules have a different opinion. They say, for stroke play, "A player must not practise on the course before a round, except that a player may practise putting or chipping on or near his or her first teeing area and practise on any pradtice area."

The Rules do not specify the reasons for the practise, they just forbid it.

Right.  And the course as set by the committee for that day is holes 10-18.  Yes ? The rules spell out that the committee sets the course 

[Colin L]

The matter of practising on the course is very clear in the Rules.  R5.2b prohibits practising on the course before a stroke play round. What the course means is clearly specified in the Definitions.  If you play  a ball anywhere within the specified  boundaries you have played it on the course.

 

 

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Right.  And the course as set by the committee for that day is holes 10-18.  Yes ? The rules spell out that the committee sets the course 

No.  The round, not the course is set for that day as holes 10 to 18.  

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by Colin L

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

When we conduct a competition on 18 holes of a 36 hole facility, we make sure that the status of the non-playing 18 holes is clearly stated, just like the US Open at Winged Foot, where the other "course" was out of bounds - clearly marked and clearly communicated - a responsibility of the Committee.

It doesn't say anywhere that a "course" is only 18 holes.  There are two pertinent definitions, shown below:

Course

The entire area of play within the edge of any boundaries set by the Committee:

• All areas inside the boundary edge are in bounds and part of the course.

• All areas outside the boundary edge are out of bounds and not part of the course.

• The boundary edge extends both up above the ground and down below the ground.

The course is made up of the five defined areas of the course.

Round

18 or fewer holes played in the order set by the Committee.

To quote your post.  The last line says

 

“ 18 or fewer holes ....in order. Set by the committee. “ 

 

im not trying to be right.  I’m trying to know what is right.  If I’m the player DQed here I’d appeal this based on facts we know now.  Would the USga uphold the DQ ? 

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

I can get to DQ by either of two methods - as Sawgrass said, beginning another hole (they played both 1 and 2) or by practice strokes made on the course before the round.

When I saw the title my mind immediately jumped to DQ for practicing on the course. Then I read it was a 9 hole event on the back 9- is the front 9 still considered 'the course' given it is not part of the competition? Or would it be the same as practicing on a different course before an event with is allowed.

 

[rogolf]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

To quote your post.  The last line says

 

“ 18 or fewer holes ....in order. Set by the committee. “ 

 

im not trying to be right.  I’m trying to know what is right.  If I’m the player DQed here I’d appeal this based on facts we know now.  Would the USga uphold the DQ ? 

Imo, yes, based on the definition of "course".  If an area is not marked or identified as out of bounds, it is part of the course.

Edited January 19, 2021 by rogolf

[bladehunter]

1 minute ago, Colin L said:

The matter of practising on the course is very clear in the Rules.  R5.2b prohibits practising on the course before a stroke play round. What the course means is clearly specified in the Definitions.  If you play  a ball anywhere within the specified  boundaries you have played it on the course.

 

 

 

 

Again  I’m not trying to actually argue here. I’m more asking with statements of what I read.     The above quoted text from rogolf shows the “ course “ as being 18 or fewer holes as set by the committee “.   How does this include 1-2 whne the tournament is on 10-18 ?    

[2bGood]

Just now, rogolf said:

Imo, yes, based on the definition of "course".  If an area is not marked as out of bounds, it is part of the course.

Super interesting, so how about a course with 27 holes and only 18 are being used for the event, would it be the same ruling? 

 

 

[rogolf]

Just now, 2bGood said:

Super interesting, so how about a course with 27 holes and only 18 are being used for the event, would it be the same ruling? 

 

 

It depends on the Committee in charge of the competition and how they have marked/defined the course for the competition.  It is their responsibility to define the course.