Starting the round after having played two holes

[bladehunter]

47 minutes ago, rogolf said:

But I completely disagree that a ref in a lower-level event should behave differently than one in the US Open.  Why the hell not?  Isn't the reason he/she is there to make things operate as closely as humanly possible to the Rules?

 

I don't know if you can see it, but many of your comments here regarding the relationship between refs and players come off, at least to me, as confrontational.  There's zero value to that.  I'll help you if I'm able, I'll tell it to you straight if I'm not.  And most all of us are volunteers who do this for the love of what's right, not to take advantage of players.

 

Agree!  And don't be surprised that some of the posters here may have officiated at the US Open (or events of similar stature) and have probably dealt with all types of players.

Right.  But you now speak to the human condition.  Labeling players as “ certain types “ is exactly the same as the us vs then speak I’m saying.  Difference is - I’ll own it.  It’s not desirable in any direction, but I don’t think it’s reasonable  to expect humans to go against their nature. And that  goes for refs and players.  

Edited January 21, 2021 by bladehunter

[bladehunter]

44 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Your approach, which appears to be assuming the worst in the interaction with any referee, can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Sure. It can be. But should it be ?   Now we’re arguing chicken or egg.  I don’t think questioning the ruling or asking for a second opinion gives the ref any standing to then turn his attitude anywhere .  I’m not ranting or raving , nor am I hurling insults. But if I don’t understand I will ask a pointed question and expect an answer with reasoning above “ because I said so “. And like I said most of the time I get it.  
 

I know it doesn’t come off in text. But in person I’m as full of manners as anybody you can find. I’ll yes sir and no sir you to death.   Which is why I bristle when not met with the same.  

[pingfool]

6pages of overcomplicating

 they practiced on the course before playing. 
they didn’t practice on holes 10-18

Tough rule

but DQ

[rogolf]

An interesting article on rulings, referees and players.  But an unfortunate result.

https://golf.com/news/billy-mayfair-disqualification-champions-tour/

[Newby]

On 1/21/2021 at 5:51 PM, bladehunter said:

 But if I don’t understand I will ask a pointed question and expect an answer with reasoning above “ because I said so “. And like I said most of the time I get it.  
 

I know it doesn’t come off in text. But in person I’m as full of manners as anybody you can find. I’ll yes sir and no sir you to death.   Which is why I bristle when not met with the same.  

One definition of a pointed question is "a direct question, look etc that deliberately shows that you are annoyed, bored, or disapprove of something"

I hope you mean the alternative definition

-It means a question that is directed particularly. A pointed question is one that is difficult to answer in a confusing, ambiguous, or disingenuous manner, and one that gets to the meat of an issue.

 

😉

Edited January 24, 2021 by Newby

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

One definition of a pointed question is "a direct question, look etc that deliberately shows that you are annoyed, bored, or disapprove of something"

I hope you mean the alternative definition

-It means a question that is directed particularly. A pointed question is one that is difficult to answer in a confusing, ambiguous, or disingenuous manner, and one that gets to the meat of an issue.

 

😉

Well of course I mean a question that is difficult to answer any way other than direct  and clear.    Pointed to me means - clear and to the point.  No feelings or intentions involved.  

[antip]

On 1/25/2021 at 6:25 AM, rogolf said:

An interesting article on rulings, referees and players.  But an unfortunate result.

https://golf.com/news/billy-mayfair-disqualification-champions-tour/

Unfortunate for the credibility of this player but DQ seems entirely appropriate given the facts.

[TaS22]

Isn't he the one that tour players have always had issues with in terms of the way that he marks his ball advantageously at times?  I thought that it was written about in a Max Adler article.    

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, TaS22 said:

Isn't he the one that tour players have always had issues with in terms of the way that he marks his ball advantageously at times?  I thought that it was written about in a Max Adler article.    

Oh yea. He’s infamous in tour circles.  

[dugue4]

Excuse my ignorance, but how can one gain an advantage by marking the ball?

 

Figured it out.  I was confused between marking where the ball was on the course, not marking on the ball...

Edited January 26, 2021 by dugue4

[rogolf]

9 hours ago, antip said:

Unfortunate for the credibility of this player but DQ seems entirely appropriate given the facts.

No doubt.  My interest in the article was about the Rules, referees and expectations of players, Committee, sponsors etc.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, dugue4 said:

Excuse my ignorance, but how can one gain an advantage by marking the ball?

 

I'm not sure but you might want to use the "quote" function.

 

Not everybody reads every post, but at least the quote function will "notify" the person to read your post asking the question.

[TaS22]

This was the passage that I was thinking of from several years ago.  He's talking about Mayfair.

Quote

(During Masters week), I remember nearly spitting out my drink when I read what Phil Mickelson said in his press conference. His quote was, “I know a number of guys on tour that are loose with how they mark the ball and have not been called on it. I mean, they’ll move the ball two, three inches in front of their mark, and this is an intentional way to get it out of any type of impression and so forth, and I think that kind of stuff needs to stop.”

 

The truth is, there’s exactly one guy who is known to mis-mark his ball by two or three inches. Ask any player about cheating, and they’ll all tell you the same name. I was paired with this notorious individual recently, and I witnessed it. Using his hand to obscure the distance behind the ball, he picks up his coin so fast that you almost can’t be certain of what you’ve just seen. But when you see it enough times, it becomes pretty obvious. What’s more, this was just after the anchor ban, and he was using a long putter. He wears baggy shirts, but I could tell that he was anchoring. After the round, we got into a heated debate in the scoring trailer when I refused to sign his card. He claimed that if the end of his grip touched his chest, it was accidental. The way the rule is written, it’s all about intent, and an official signed his card.

 

This dude knows he’s a cheater, and he knows that everyone knows he’s a cheater. No one wants to be paired with him or play practice rounds with him. Often you see him dining alone.

 

[antip]

I have an official answer. The OP was a DQ situation because the players commenced their round outside the correct teeing area and failed to correct before hitting off another tee.

But on the question of whether players can intentionally go and practice on parts of the course other than the holes being used for a specific competition, there is no penalty in such cases.  Eg, if it is a 9 hole comp on the back 9 and the players practice on the front 9; or if the course has 27 holes and the players practice on a 9 not involved in the competition, no penalty applies.

[Colin L]

On your second point about a 9 hole competition,  is that an "official" answer?

[Augster]

Yay! Common sense wins again. 
 

Some of y’all should be ashamed of your preposterous stance on this issue. 

[antip]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

On your second point about a 9 hole competition,  is that an "official" answer?

Yes.

 

[antip]

16 minutes ago, Augster said:

Yay! Common sense wins again. 
 

Some of y’all should be ashamed of your preposterous stance on this issue. 

I agree this is common sense advice, but the alternate views raised in discussion were grounded in the black and white wording in the definition of course. Hence there were questions worth seeking clarification on and I think the responses highlight that such questions need to be asked.

For sure, a couple of years of scrutiny by many eyes is throwing up a few places where the published words could be made more clear and we can usefully add some notations to our printed copies, but I remain thankful that so much of the published words are holding up.

[sui generis]

The notion of "common sense" isn't always useful. It's known as a heuristic method of problem solving in which the outcome doesn't necessarily produce truth. Still, if "close enough is good enough," common sense will do instead of trying harder to find the correct answer. 😉

[Shilgy]

This may have been mentioned as I only read half the first page….but this is a pretty informal event. No tee times and 10-18. If  I’m running the event some guy insists on DQ I’m not making the errant players pay their entry fee.

[Hawkeye77]

On 5/17/2021 at 9:40 AM, antip said:

I agree this is common sense advice, but the alternate views raised in discussion were grounded in the black and white wording in the definition of course. Hence there were questions worth seeking clarification on and I think the responses highlight that such questions need to be asked.

For sure, a couple of years of scrutiny by many eyes is throwing up a few places where the published words could be made more clear and we can usefully add some notations to our printed copies, but I remain thankful that so much of the published words are holding up.

Thanks for getting an answer and reporting on it!

[nsxguy]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:21 AM, naval2006 said:

Last weekend there was a late 9 comp on Sunday.  They were playing holes 10 to 18.  There's these two guys who unknowingly hit on hole nro. 1.  They play 1 and 2 and someone comes up and tell them the tournament was 10 to 18.  They players proceeded to the 10th and started playing the round.  After the round there was a member of the Committee telling them they had to be dq for hitting from the wrong hole.  I'd never heard about that before.  I'm almost sure the Committee guy was wrong.  I let the experts talk.

 

Alex

 

On 5/17/2021 at 8:16 AM, antip said:

I have an official answer. The OP was a DQ situation because the players commenced their round outside the correct teeing area and failed to correct before hitting off another tee.

 

But on the question of whether players can intentionally go and practice on parts of the course other than the holes being used for a specific competition, there is no penalty in such cases.  Eg, if it is a 9 hole comp on the back 9 and the players practice on the front 9; or if the course has 27 holes and the players practice on a 9 not involved in the competition, no penalty applies.

 

So then the players who inadvertently played 1 & 2 are DQ'd because they thought they were starting the comp round ?

 

Because they didn't think it was practice ?

 

I mean I get the difference between intentional and "un" but seriously, why should it make a difference in this case. Where was the harm ? Other than breaking(?) a ROG of course.

 

So much for ol' Augie's "common sense rules".

 

And "No harm no foul". And yes, I know that phrase isn't in the ROG. 

[antip]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

So then the players who inadvertently played 1 & 2 are DQ'd because they thought they were starting the comp round ?

 

Because they didn't think it was practice ?

 

I mean I get the difference between intentional and "un" but seriously, why should it make a difference in this case. Where was the harm ? Other than breaking(?) a ROG of course.

 

So much for ol' Augie's "common sense rules".

 

And "No harm no foul". And yes, I know that phrase isn't in the ROG. 

When you commence a hole in a competition round, you must play from within the Teeing Area. Always. If you make a stroke from outside that Teeing Area, you do not have a ball in play and must correct, getting the general penalty. If you fail to correct before hitting off another hole, it is DQ. It doesn't matter if it is the first hole or the 18th, it doesn't matter if the ball is one inch outside or miles away. IMO, it doesn't get much simpler.

 

[nsxguy]

36 minutes ago, antip said:

When you commence a hole in a competition round, you must play from within the Teeing Area. Always. If you make a stroke from outside that Teeing Area, you do not have a ball in play and must correct, getting the general penalty. If you fail to correct before hitting off another hole, it is DQ. It doesn't matter if it is the first hole or the 18th, it doesn't matter if the ball is one inch outside or miles away. IMO, it doesn't get much simpler.

 

 

I guess I didn't make my point.

 

The point is, even though they thought they were, they were actually NOT "commencing a hole in a competitive round" since they were playing on 2 holes that were not IN the 9 hole comp.

 

So really, there was nothing to correct. A general penalty doesn't shouldn't apply here since they hadn't started, and weren't starting, their round. So where they hit from is irrelevant, no ?

 

They were effectively, even if in error, practicing on a part of the course that wasn't IN the comp - which you suggested earlier was permitted.

 

 

 

 

[antip]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

I guess I didn't make my point.

 

The point is, even though they thought they were, they were actually NOT "commencing a hole in a competitive round" since they were playing on 2 holes that were not IN the 9 hole comp.

 

So really, there was nothing to correct. A general penalty doesn't shouldn't apply here since they hadn't started, and weren't starting, their round. So where they hit from is irrelevant, no ?

 

They were effectively, even if in error, practicing on a part of the course that wasn't IN the comp - which you suggested earlier was permitted.

 

 

 

 

I don't believe there is a point to be made - it's simple facts here - were they playing what was intended to be the first hole, or were they playing a practice hole outside the competition course? The answer points you to the correct rules treatment.

Playing other than from the Teeing Area is as fundamental as the rules can get and puts very clear obligation on player integrity. Are you heading from the clubhouse/pro shop/practice green to the 1st tee or not?

That said, I'm the first to acknowledge that the first tee is sometimes a complicated place under the rules - in some cases you can get away with stuff there (eg advice before you hit off) that you cannot get away with later.

[nsxguy]

21 minutes ago, antip said:

I don't believe there is a point to be made - it's simple facts here - were they playing what was intended to be the first hole, or were they playing a practice hole outside the competition course? The answer points you to the correct rules treatment.

 

There absolutely IS a point to be made.

 

So then, at least in this case, since practicing on the course IS allowed but they thought they were starting the comp, it's the INTENT that counts, not the actual event(s).

 

i.e. They intended to start the comp so they and screwed up - so DQ.

 

Had they actually been practicing it would've been no problem.

 

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. 🤦‍♀️

 

But thanks. ✌️

[antip]

42 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

There absolutely IS a point to be made.

 

So then, at least in this case, since practicing on the course IS allowed but they thought they were starting the comp, it's the INTENT that counts, not the actual event(s).

 

i.e. They intended to start the comp so they and screwed up - so DQ.

 

Had they actually been practicing it would've been no problem.

 

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. 🤦‍♀️

 

But thanks. ✌️

LOL, I tried. My summary: if you are just practising, not on the competition course, not during your competition round, then there are no rules of golf issues to be concerned about. But if you are all booked in and have been called to your first tee or are on your way to the first tee, then you have opened the door to potential rules breaches if you don't play from the correct place AND don't correct within the identified time limit. The first hole is treated just the same as every subsequent Teeing Area that you need to correctly find and play from.

[rogolf]

12 minutes ago, antip said:

LOL, I tried. My summary: if you are just practising, not on the competition course, not during your competition round, then there are no rules of golf issues to be concerned about. But if you are all booked in and have been called to your first tee or are on your way to the first tee, then you have opened the door to potential rules breaches if you don't play from the correct place AND don't correct within the identified time limit. The first hole is treated just the same as every subsequent Teeing Area that you need to correctly find and play from.

Further - responsibilities of the Committee in charge to clearly define the "course" being played with respect to practice.  If the Committee does not do this correctly, they may well be inundated with challenges by competitors!

The 5 P's; Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance.  Sometimes called the 6 P's; Proper Preparation Prevents P***-Poor Performance.

Edited May 20, 2021 by rogolf

[Sawgrass]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

 

i.e. They intended to start the comp so they and screwed up - so DQ.

 

Had they actually been practicing it would've been no problem.

 

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. 🤦‍♀️

 

But thanks. ✌️

I literally can’t imagine any resolution which makes more sense to me.  Do you have a better formal alternative which treats both instances more fairly?

[nsxguy]

On 1/19/2021 at 7:21 AM, naval2006 said:

Last weekend there was a late 9 comp on Sunday.  They were playing holes 10 to 18.  There's these two guys who unknowingly hit on hole nro. 1.  They play 1 and 2 and someone comes up and tell them the tournament was 10 to 18.  They players proceeded to the 10th and started playing the round.  After the round there was a member of the Committee telling them they had to be dq for hitting from the wrong hole.  I'd never heard about that before.  I'm almost sure the Committee guy was wrong.  I let the experts talk.

 

Alex

 

16 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

I literally can’t imagine any resolution which makes more sense to me.  Do you have a better formal alternative which treats both instances more fairly?

 

Sure.

 

I'd say intent has nothing to do with it. Your comp round starts when you take your first stroke on the first hole.

 

Until then anything else done on or around the course is practice (such as putting or a practice bunker or a driving range) provided it's not otherwise prohibited.

 

Practicing on the course to be played already carries an appropriate penalty.