Any and all swing advice

[Northeastgolf12]

Hey everyone - I’ve been struggling with any kind of consistency in my golf swing. I’ve been trying to get better rotation and overcome the early extension. On real grass, my divot almost always starts before the ball (I’m guessing a product of my early extension). My typical shot is a draw but most days I’m all over the place. I’ve tried to switch from a baseball grip to an interlocking grip but I can’t get use to it. Let me know what you see and don’t sugar coat it. Thanks in advance.

[highpro]

Ok so first you need to fix the set up. I wouldn’t worry about the grip right now it’s ok. Your posture is too bent forward with your butt too far back. Stand taller, with less bend from the waist, with the rivet on the pocket of your pants over the bone on the outside of your ankle.  The shaft of the club should point at your belly button at address looking down the line. 
 

Then you got a clean the steep/early extend deal. The two feed each other so you’ve got to attack them both and do so with a lot of slow motion swings. First, your right knee actually adds flex in the backswing causing your pelvis to lower to the ground and your hip turn to be too level. You need your right leg to straighten somewhat in the backswing to create more tilt and keep your pelvis up off the ground.  If you fix the setup and the leg motion you’ll be on your way to clearing up the extension except...

 

Second, you’re gonna need to do a whole bunch of arm shallowing/ elbow in front stuff. Your right elbow is getting behind you and that’s pitching the shaft straight up and down. At left arm parallel to the ground at 8 seconds in the down the line video the clubshaft should be aimed at the ball. You’ve got it almost vertical. That’s got to change or you’ll always hump it just to keep from sticking the club in the ground (This right here is where your contact issues come from). Hit a million little shots where you get the club head to go back and around away from the target line (think a miniature version ofMatthew Wolff).

[straightshot7]

Your downswing vs. Rory's.

 

I think you need to work on shallowing the club on the downswing.

I agree with the other posters above losing your hip depth as well. I think all of the problems are intertwined. The sucking in of the pelvis and the steepening of the shaft on the downswing are all very common problems.

There are a lot of good YouTube videos that may help you:
 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by straightshot7

[Valtiel]

I agree with everything @highpro said above. 

You have the makings of some really good stuff in your movements but are just being plagued by a couple of the critical flaws highpro mentioned. The reason that the setup is problematic is that the relationship we establish between our hips and the ball, mainly the distance between the two, is crucial in regards to how much room we give ourselves (mainly or arms) do to what they need to do in the downsing. By sticking your butt out too far, the distance you have created between your hips and the ball becomes very difficult to maintain, like so:



The red line is the distance you have established at address, and we can see how that distance changes significantly in your downswing. This is loss of depth which leads to early extension and all the problems that come with that. The further you set your hips back at address, the more you have work to keep them there throughout the swing. But you might think "hey, there are other PGA tour players that stand in a similar way, so what the heck is the problem then"? And you'd be right, but the key is:



Guys like Brenden Steele above are able to better maintain those angles and that depth, as well as do things like set their hands a little further out to create more room when a little depth IS lost, like above. Your hands are set close enough to your legs that you would need to actually GAIN hip depth throughout the swing (as some pros do), or at minimum not lose any at all in order go get your arms back on plane. 

How this all links up is that in your sequence above, the amount your hips move towards the ball from Panel 3 to 4 (this is the "hump" you may have heard of) is enough to completely take up the space in which your arms should be going to return on plane. You actually look like you're trying to do this in transition, because your hands actually start to drop nicely instead of coming out towards the ball (over the top move), but the moment your lower body moves towards the ball is the moment you remove the space you would have otherwise "shallowed" into, and thus you must reroute which you do by steepening the shaft. Your hands are doing the right thing, but your lower body is literally forcing them out of the way. It looks like you're trying really hard to avoid coming over the top as despite the early extension you are still coming from miles inside and then flipping through the ball like a tennis player hitting a topspin shot. This is likely why you feel like you need the baseball grip because this requires a lot of hand action to "save", so the grip is a partial bandaid at the moment. All of this is why you are basically forced to play a draw when swinging well, struggle with shot shape when you aren't, and struggle with low point (fat shots). 

The solutions are tough because you need to change both what your hands and your body are doing, and the order is tricky. The suggestion about setup posture is a good starting place, but it is also important to understand why, as explained above re: hip depth. From there your hands can do what it looks like they are trying to do in transition (drop/shallow) and you won't need the hand action help afforded by the baseball grip, which you can then experiment with changing. 

[Northeastgolf12]

@highpro, @straightshot7, @Valtiel  Thank you all for the in-depth analysis and recommendations. I never would have seen the hip distance you guys are referring to nor would I have understood the significance of it.

 

I’ve just tried to get a feeling for standing up straighter and maintaining hip distance. I can already tell this is gonna take a while. I feel like I have to stand way closer to the ball (very foreign to me). I’ll keep working on it and report back. Thanks again for the comments. 

 

 

@laneholt I’m not sure if you’re referring to the moment right before impact. If so, these are the screenshots I’ve pulled between me and Morikawa. I can see clearly that both my hands/arms are parallel my shaft whereas Morikawa has the nice forward shaft lean. I’m struggling getting to that position though without coming over the top.

 

 

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

@Northeastgolf12 I've got a talent for seeing the communication of obfuscating people, so let me decode Lane for you... Although I don't even have the quicktime codec on my PC and can't see your swing, I still think I can do it lol 😉

 

Lane is saying that at P5 (left arm parallel on the downswing) you've thrown away the angles of your wrist and already started to release the clubhead, known as "early release". Basically he's saying that you need to hold that lag down to P6 before you release the wrist angles.

 

That's my guess, anyway lol. 

[highpro]

I can assure you that if you have the club out of position and attempt to “hold the angle” or “lever system” you will hit it worse. Much, much, worse. 
 

Forward shaft lean, which is what the ball cares about, cannot be created by showing you a picture of a golfer and telling you “do that”. 
 

 

[Valtiel]

19 hours ago, highpro said:

I can assure you that if you have the club out of position and attempt to “hold the angle” or “lever system” you will hit it worse. Much, much, worse. 
 

Forward shaft lean, which is what the ball cares about, cannot be created by showing you a picture of a golfer and telling you “do that”. 
 

 

 

33 minutes ago, laneholt said:

High pro,

 

      Yours is certainly a very * PROFOUND * statement, no doubt ! Please tell me how you would get the club into this proper position- what is it ?

    As to your second d paragraph - if you are correct why are millions of players spending billions on videos watching great players in action ? Why are millions on YouTube watching and learning ? Why does Golf Digest publish swing sequences in their magazines ? Why does the Golf Channel and ABC and Fox and others  play slo- motion sequences of PGA players during golf telecast ? 
  Just asking ? 

I'd wager what he is getting at is the kinds of things that Monte has talked about, specifically the idea that once the club and/or is out of position, any attempt to force the sorts of things you need to do when the club is NOT out of position (hold the angles etc) will usually result in all kinds of problems. In this case, the OP is coming down very steep and from the inside, which is part of why he is early extending (to keep the club from driving into the ground) and losing his angles (he needs to to square the clubface). 

The loss of hip depth in the backswing/downswing is forcing him to steepen his plane coming down, which is then forcing the early extension, which combined with the inside path is forcing him to throw away his wrist angles to square the club. No amount of attempted wrist angle retention is going to help because the loss of it is a necessary compensation for what is happening prior. His setup position needs to be fixed to help encourage proper rotation, which then creates the room for the hands to drop and get the club on plane while maintaining his wrist angles since he no longer needs to throw them away to square the clubface. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Valtiel

[TheDeanAbides]

On 3/9/2021 at 5:32 AM, straightshot7 said:

Your downswing vs. Rory's.

 

I think you need to work on shallowing the club on the downswing.

I agree with the other posters above losing your hip depth as well. I think all of the problems are intertwined. The sucking in of the pelvis and the steepening of the shaft on the downswing are all very common problems.

There are a lot of good YouTube videos that may help you:
 

 

 

 

He can't shallow the club until he fixes his setup. He's so bent over and too close too the ball. 

[Northeastgolf12]

Thank you again for all the replies and constructive discussion. I’ve had the chance to go to the range a couple times and I’ve been trying to work on straightening out my setup.  Am I on the right track?

 

 

[highpro]

8 hours ago, laneholt said:

High pro,

 

      Yours is certainly a very * PROFOUND * statement, no doubt ! Please tell me how you would get the club into this proper position- what is it ?

    As to your second d paragraph - if you are correct why are millions of players spending billions on videos watching great players in action ? Why are millions on YouTube watching and learning ? Why does Golf Digest publish swing sequences in their magazines ? Why does the Golf Channel and ABC and Fox and others  play slo- motion sequences of PGA players during golf telecast ? 
  Just asking ? 

There is a tremendous amount that can be learned through mimicry, I grant that. But taking a still photo out of an action sequence, particularly some 0.01 seconds before the ball is hit, and pointing out that he’s in the “wrong” position is the lowest form of teaching. One could simply point out to a sprinter that he’s not running fast enough to win the race.
 

Further there is no good player that I know of, or have ever heard of, who actually makes a conscious effort to hold the angle.  Why would telling a less accomplished player to do what no good player does make him a good player? Just asking.
 

As for what the average golfer is doing on YouTube I can assure you that “learning” is not what’s happening. 

[TheDeanAbides]

11 hours ago, highpro said:

There is a tremendous amount that can be learned through mimicry, I grant that. But taking a still photo out of an action sequence, particularly some 0.01 seconds before the ball is hit, and pointing out that he’s in the “wrong” position is the lowest form of teaching. One could simply point out to a sprinter that he’s not running fast enough to win the race.
 

Further there is no good player that I know of, or have ever heard of, who actually makes a conscious effort to hold the angle.  Why would telling a less accomplished player to do what no good player does make him a good player? Just asking.
 

As for what the average golfer is doing on YouTube I can assure you that “learning” is not what’s happening. 

I'm so glad that you said this about holding the angle. 👏🏼

[YouDaHamHider]

27 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Wow - 

   If the ** ANGLE BETWEEN THE ARMS AND SHAFT ** of almost every great player in history looks pretty much exactly like Tigers at this moment in his DS can not be described as 

“” HOLDING THE ANGLE “ then please explain how you would describe it ?
 

I think what the guys are getting at is that there is no debate about it anymore. Modern technology like sensors that track body part movements show that Tour pros are 

'casting' the club. They just do the cast in the correct direction, at the correct time and in the correct sequence. A still frame doesn't show the 'cast', but we know that it's happening thanks to the tech that is now used. 

[TheDeanAbides]

49 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Wow - 

   If the ** ANGLE BETWEEN THE ARMS AND SHAFT ** of almost every great player in history looks pretty much exactly like Tigers at this moment in his DS can not be described as 

“” HOLDING THE ANGLE “ then please explain how you would describe it ?
 

Nobody is HOLDING the angle. 3D capture software shows us that every decent player is releasing the angle from the top and that creates lag further down. Nobody is then holding that lag either - they're releasing it along with the wrist angles. You cannot use 2D images or video to make points about the swing anymore, Lane. It's just out of date info. 

[YouDaHamHider]

16 minutes ago, laneholt said:

Y-

 

     Discussion over from me ! Wishing your great success with your game !

 

Lane. The following graph shows what happens to wrist angles during the golf swing of an elite player. Note that the angles are not maintained in the downswing. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 3/11/2021 at 8:10 AM, highpro said:

I can assure you that if you have the club out of position and attempt to “hold the angle” or “lever system” you will hit it worse. Much, much, worse. 
 

Forward shaft lean, which is what the ball cares about, cannot be created by showing you a picture of a golfer and telling you “do that”. 
 

Just FYI, my goal was to act as interpreter, not as a swing coach lol...

 

I agree with others that hitting those positions are effects of doing other things in the swing right, not something that you can deliberately "hold". Given the forces involved in the golf swing, trying to deliberately hold positions if you're swinging improperly will either be impossible or self-injurious!

 

You have to fix root cause and then the results will look more like "optimal" positions. 

 

[straightshot7]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:49 AM, highpro said:

There is a tremendous amount that can be learned through mimicry, I grant that. But taking a still photo out of an action sequence, particularly some 0.01 seconds before the ball is hit, and pointing out that he’s in the “wrong” position is the lowest form of teaching. One could simply point out to a sprinter that he’s not running fast enough to win the race.
 

Further there is no good player that I know of, or have ever heard of, who actually makes a conscious effort to hold the angle.  Why would telling a less accomplished player to do what no good player does make him a good player? Just asking.
 

As for what the average golfer is doing on YouTube I can assure you that “learning” is not what’s happening. 

I agree with you but I don't think anyone really got to the point of recommending a "fix" for the problem.

More-so they were just identifying the problem and the difference between him and the pro.

 

From there, yes the great teaching would be in knowing what drills or means would actually fix the problem. 

Usually it is, as you allude to, not effective to just try to "hold the angle", rather it ends up happening naturally as a result of a separate change. 

[Northeastgolf12]

I didn’t anticipate such a lively and passionate debate but it’s all helpful from my point of view. Thanks everyone. 
 

Getting back to my second set of videos, does my setup look like it’s headed in the right direction? I’m having trouble gaging what the “correct” distance from the ball is in my new more upright position. Sometimes I think it’s too far out (and my armpits are over my toes) but if I move it back I feel like I’m straight up and down (using all arms). 

[highpro]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:13 PM, Northeastgolf12 said:

I didn’t anticipate such a lively and passionate debate but it’s all helpful from my point of view. Thanks everyone. 
 

Getting back to my second set of videos, does my setup look like it’s headed in the right direction? I’m having trouble gaging what the “correct” distance from the ball is in my new more upright position. Sometimes I think it’s too far out (and my armpits are over my toes) but if I move it back I feel like I’m straight up and down (using all arms). 

You’re still a little too far from it. But all in better. That’s the right idea of what needs to happen with the right leg just make sure that it loses flex gradually and never locks out. Keep working it’ll get better. But you’re gonna need to keep going with the shallowing the shaft in the downswing.  Lots of little shots.