Any help with where to start?

[reactive]

I’ve been golfing on and off for a few years but really started taking it more seriously this year. My goal is to develop a consistent swing with proper mechanics but I really don’t know what to fix or where to start. 

I feel like my legs/lower body look weird in my downswing/follow through, like I am not using my legs properly or using them too late?

My biggest issue is just consistency, and when I do make solid contact I will slice the ball more than other issues, especially with driver
 

any advice?

 

Straight on and DTL included

 

IMG_4573.MOVIMG_4575.MOV

Edited August 16, 2021 by reactive
more info

[Valtiel]

There are definitely a handful of competing/conflicting things going on here that you can work on pretty easily. Do you happen to have video of the driver, specifically the slice? Based on your attached iron videos I can definitely see why "left" would be a problem and I don't want to just assume that it is an overcompensation that is causing the driver issues. If you don't have a driver video then I can just do a breakdown on the iron swing, just wanted to check first!

[reactive]

8 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

There are definitely a handful of competing/conflicting things going on here that you can work on pretty easily. Do you happen to have video of the driver, specifically the slice? Based on your attached iron videos I can definitely see why "left" would be a problem and I don't want to just assume that it is an overcompensation that is causing the driver issues. If you don't have a driver video then I can just do a breakdown on the iron swing, just wanted to check first!

 Thanks so much for the reply!!

To be honest with you, this is video of my swing from the range today and I would say this video shows my best swing so far.

In this video I was working on trying to keep more of a bowed wrist to prevent the slice that my driver swing normally has.

I guess what I am saying is that maybe my corrections in this video would fix the slice, so I would love if you would just critique these videos and ignore what I said about the slice, because I am really trying to build a new swing with solid fundamentals from the ground up.

[reactive]

13 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

There are definitely a handful of competing/conflicting things going on here that you can work on pretty easily. Do you happen to have video of the driver, specifically the slice? Based on your attached iron videos I can definitely see why "left" would be a problem and I don't want to just assume that it is an overcompensation that is causing the driver issues. If you don't have a driver video then I can just do a breakdown on the iron swing, just wanted to check first!

Here is a recent video of a swing with my driver if it helps but keep in mind that the swing might be different because in the more recent videos I was working on getting good hip turn in the backswing and having more of a bowed wrist…

[reactive]

@Valtielif you are still willing to do a swing breakdown for me I am attaching updated swing videos of me today, where I feel like I am using my legs/hips better in the downswing and follow through. I would love your thoughts!

 

 

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, reactive said:

@Valtielif you are still willing to do a swing breakdown for me I am attaching updated swing videos of me today, where I feel like I am using my legs/hips better in the downswing and follow through. I would love your thoughts!

 

 

IMG_4608.MOV IMG_4604.MOV

Absolutely, I will take a look after I do something similar for @Tverrall. 👍

[reactive]

1 minute ago, Valtiel said:

Absolutely, I will take a look after I do something similar for @Tverrall. 👍

Sounds great, thanks a ton for taking your time to help out, I really appreciate it!! 

[reactive]

@ValtielI am posting a new DTL and straight on swing that I would absolutely love if you would breakdown instead of my other videos if you haven’t started anything yet. 
 

I have really been working on better hip rotation, keeping my head more still, and not coming over the top as much. I know I still have tons of work to do but I think the breakdown would be much more helpful if it is on these most recent swings. 
 

thanks so much!!

[reactive]

Well, this is kind of turning into a swing progression type thread but I am super excited because I think I finally figured out how the hips are supposed to move in the downswing. At least more so than I was doing before…hopefully. 
 

I am posting my newest swing, I am not hitting real balls in these videos but I think it shows the new body movements I have been working on. 
 

@Valtielif you have done any analysis on my other vids yet it would be awesome if you could take a look at these new ones, I don’t expect you to use them for the breakdown but maybe just to tell me if it looks like I’m moving in the right direction compared to my prior videos. 
 

sorry for all the posts but I think I’ve finally had sort of an “aha” moment with the lower body. I know I still have tons of work to do though. 

[Valtiel]

EDIT: Cleaned up typos and extra gif that was unnecessary at the bottom. 

I've kept up with the videos you've updated the thread with (thanks for all the content and good angles) and the breakdown will be focused on the ones from Thursday since they are just as relevant as the most current ones. 

The high level summary would be that you have the common "flat to steep" problem in that your backswing gets very inside and flat and your downswing reacts by being the opposite, steep and over the top. Basically your clubhead drawing a big arching loop around behind you and then a much straighter line down towards the ball, which is something you'll want to work towards reversing. You have a handful of loose/excessive body moves that you'll want to work on tightening up. 



The flat to steep problem starts right out of the gate with a lot forearm rolling and disconnecting of the arms (excessive boby move #1) . You want the club working back more vertically and in a much straighter line away from the ball (see Morikawa). Your foot line could be contributing to this as well as your right foot is dropped back creating a more closed foot alignment than your shoulders (I struggle with this as well). 



Working up towards the top you start to correct this flatness which keeps your hands from getting too deep and stuck behind you, but you're losing posture and spine angle in the process as we see your head working up out of the box (excessive body move #2). Your arms start disconnecting and working too indepently from your body at this point, which we'll see more of below. 

 

At the top we see an entire frame of just arm and head movement as you lose a little more posture and you hinge the club back behind you. This would be considered and overly long and disconnected backswing position, there is no reason to get the club this far back and behind you, and your posture loss and head raising is the indicator of this as you're having to shift other parts of your body to do this, all excessive and unnecessary. Also, starting a swing out flat and inside and ending with the club past parallel and across the line like this is a recipe for a steep and over the top downswing since all your momentum is taking you in that direction. In order to get the club working down on plane you would literally have to reverse and come back down the way you came up, and our bodies don't want to move this way. On a positive note though there is some good sequencing happening here as you're starting to fire your lower body to kick of the transition, always good, but there are some issues with your lower body positions that we'll get to in the face on gifs. 



Here was see that steep move as your hands are now working out towards the ball and the shaft plane is almost vertical as you start down. We also see a clubface that is a little open as well, which is a common companion to a steep transition move and will cause issues later. Lower body rotation is good though, you're clearing pretty effectively and your head has lowered back down into a better position, but this is excessive body movement #3 as its a compensation for a prior flaw. 



Down into impact and we see you trying to swing left and get back on plane, which you almost do, but the clubface is quite open coming into the ball (hence the weak rightward flight this swing produced) and your path is very much from the outside. You're also up on your right toe very early (excessive move #4), but you have cleared your lower body very well though and your head is in a good spot. 



Switching to the face on view and we see a LOT of sway/lateral movement away from the ball. Even by old school Jack Nicklaus standards this is far too much. You appear to be favoring your left side with your weight distribution at address and then your left hip and knee move laterally a massive amount very early, as does your head. Morikawa on the right would be the epitome of the modern takeaway, which you don't need to be *as* stable, but I put it here to illustrate how much you're swaying, your head/left hip/left knee being excessive body moves #5/6/7. Freeing up your left side to move is fine, plenty of great golfers do/have done this, but NOT this much. Thankfully you actually post up on your right leg very well and rotate equally well with the lower body in transition so this move doesn't cause a massive goat hump like it would for many, but it is something you'll want to work towards decreasing significantly, especially that lateral head movement. 

The big takeaways then are working towards reversing the flat/steep issue in your sequence, keeping your overall arm and shoulder movements more connected which will reduce the excessive backswing length, addressing the ball with more even weight distribution, and reducing your head and left side lateral moves in the backswing.

A footnote about your grip as well since you have a the equally common overly strong right hand and weak left hand position pictured on the left below:

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Valtiel

[reactive]

@ValtielSorry about such a long delay with my reply!

Thank you sooo much for such a detailed breakdown, I have been practicing everything you said almost every day and I feel like I have fixed some of it, still working on other parts!

 

I am hoping I will have improved enough by the end of the season to post an updated swing that hopefully looks much better!

Seriously, thanks a ton for the feedback I really appreciate it!

Edited August 31, 2021 by reactive
typos

[reactive]

Hey all!

 

Another update on my swing after a few  weeks.  I really feel like @Valtielhelped me a ton with the explanations of what I need to work on. 

 

I feel like I have taken out of bunch of the unnecessary movements. 
 

my swing feels better but I noticed now I am hitting shanks which I never used to do. I attached a third video of one of the shanks. 
 

that must mean I am changing my swing to now be hitting shanks…hopefully in a good way haha. But maybe I am standing to close to the ball? Or if anyone has any other ideas on what’s causing this I’d love any feedback!

 

And here is the shank video:

Edited September 2, 2021 by reactive
fix format

[reactive]

Deleted

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by reactive
unneeded content

[reactive]

I think the site is having issues with downloading files so I uploaded the swing videos to youtube if anyone wants to take a look that way.

Here is the DTL:

Face on:

And here is the shank video:

 

[Valtiel]

Thanks for the follow up!

I want to immediately pump the brakes and call out your takeaway because it has actually gotten flatter and MORE inside since the first videos. 



The shank is a product of what looks like you trying to apply the things we broke down in this thread, but only in the second half of your swing, which is a recipe for disaster. To quote myself from earlier:
 

Quote

...starting a swing out flat and inside and ending with the club past parallel and across the line like this is a recipe for a steep and over the top downswing since all your momentum is taking you in that direction. In order to get the club working down on plane you would literally have to reverse and come back down the way you came up, and our bodies don't want to move this way.

This is exactly what you try to do in the shank video. The club gets way too flat and inside, and instead of rerouting steep it over the top like you did previously:



You're trying to come down shallow:



You can't do this without getting stuck and messing up your hip turn. In the old gif your hips rotate and clear nicely, but in the new one they are barely moving at all. You're trying to force a more "correct" downswing move without setting it up correctly. You've made one step forward with shortening your backswing, but you've made two steps back by trying to force this downswing move and killing your good hip rotation. This is exactly what Monte Scheinblum talks about in his videos (look them up on youtube if you haven't seen them), specifically when he talked about compensations and how trying to get rid of them without getting rid of the reason they exist in the first place results in disaster (or in your case, shanks). 

Please rewind and unlearn how you have tried to apply this stuff so far because this is very much heading in the wrong direction. Start with JUST your takeaway and literally nothing else until you can get rid of the extreme inside move you have going back, because everything is resting on top of the bad positions you get in right at the beginning. Take videos of yourself and simply compare to the Morikawa gif I started my previous post with. You don't have to perfectly match it or anything, but you need to move in that direction. Start by feeling like the club literally moves in a straight line away from the ball and as it starts to work up, try to get the club dead vertical, like you're trying to stab it upwards into the ceiling. A more fundamentally correct takeaway position is far enough away from what you're doing currently that you're going to need to exaggerate this pretty hard, so don't be at all afraid if it feels weird, because it will and it should. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Valtiel

[reactive]

@ValtielThanks so much for calling my attention to this, again amazing reply!

I will continue to work at it, slow things down, and really make sure my takeaway and backswing are in a good position before I move on!

I'm pretty sure I know why my takeaway got worse, I was noticing my arms were getting really high at the top of my backswing and I was losing depth (I thought so at least), so I was focusing on keeping my hands/arms low and inside in the takeaway to help keep my arms lower, more behind me, and more across my shoulder line at the top of the backswing. 

This seemed to give me more depth and keep my arms from getting too high but clearly it made my club path worse.  One question I have is how do my arms look in the takeaway and backswing?  The reason I ask is I think I can get the club moving better by adjusting my wrist hinging to account for my new (lower and inside) arm movement, but maybe that is the wrong way to go about it and my entire arm movement is wrong...

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by reactive

[reactive]

@Valtiel 

So I went to the range today and paid attention the clubhead path more and I think I made good progress and I believe this looks more like what I’m aiming for. 
 

It just seems like for whatever reason I have a harder time not coming over the top idk. 
 

it also seemed to make my arms and hands raise up further than my shoulder line. I attached a screenshot of one of my swings to show you what I mean. Is this something I should be concerned about?

 

does it at least look like I’m back on track here?

From my limited knowledge it looks like in my downswing my sequencing is way out of wack and I am doing most of the swing leading with my arms ...

 

here is the screenshot from a different swing where I am worried my arms are getting too high and I am losing depth (if I am understanding depth correctly):

 

 

DTL:

 

Face on:

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by reactive
typos

[Valtiel]

2 hours ago, reactive said:

@Valtiel 

So I went to the range today and paid attention the clubhead path more and I think I made good progress and I believe this looks more like what I’m aiming for. 
 

It just seems like for whatever reason I have a harder time not coming over the top idk. 
 

it also seemed to make my arms and hands raise up further than my shoulder line. I attached a screenshot of one of my swings to show you what I mean. Is this something I should be concerned about?

 

does it at least look like I’m back on track here?

From my limited knowledge it looks like in my downswing my sequencing is way out of wack and I am doing most of the swing leading with my arms ...

 

here is the screenshot from a different swing where I am worried my arms are getting too high and I am losing depth (if I am understanding depth correctly):

 

 

DTL:

 

Face on:

 

There is a mixture of good and bad positions here. To address your takeaway, yes definitely better, although two other things have changed that are causing issues. First, you appear to be standing closer to the ball with the club very upright, which you are then compounding by moving you head/upper body significantly towards the ball in your backswing:



This isn't the best angle, but still apparent what is going on. The club is in a great position, but your body is not, and IMO you are rerouting steep in transition like you pointed out because you have to. You're too close to the ball and getting even closer in your backswing, so you're all jammed up with nothing to do but come down steep and stall your hips. Step away from the ball a bit and focus on keeping your head from drifting towards it. Also for the future, a camera angle a few feet to the right of this position would be more ideal since this is a little too far to the left/behind you. 

Regarding your wrists and wrist hinge, that is actually a fine and often taught method. Hinging your wrists up (as though you're bring the club towards your face at address) is a good feel for keeping the club on plane in the backswing. This is doubly true for you because you had the common issue of hinging your wrists back/down which is part of what was getting the club around behind you too early. So to recap:

1) Step away from the ball a touch
2) Keep your head/upper body from moving towards the ball in your backswing (if you go too far and lean away from it at first that is fine, we can adjust from there)
3) Feel free to feel your wrists hinging up in the backswing, remembering that getting the club too steep in the backswing is not a concern right now. 

Don't worry about club/hand depth in the backswing either, i'd much rather see your hands lacking a little depth over having too much. Also don't be afraid to take it REALLY slow at the top of the swing in transition. One of things you're likely fighting right now is that fact that your old, long backswing gave you more time at the top, especially when it came to firing your hips, which it now looks like you're having a hard time sequencing. Hopefully the bullet points above will help with that, but don't be afraid to slow way down. 

[reactive]

6 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

One of things you're likely fighting right now is that fact that your old, long backswing gave you more time at the top, especially when it came to firing your hips, which it now looks like you're having a hard time sequencing.

This is gold!

That makes sooo much sense, and probably explains why I feel this "urge" to throw the club back further in transition as well.

Thanks for all the other advice as well, I will work on everything for another week or two here and hopefully have some nice improvements to show!

[BraxtonFullerton]

Just want to add to all the work you're putting in here with a super simple take-away drill.

Take that alignment rod and stick it upright into the ground two full club-lengths directly behind the ball. Your goal with your takeaway should be to touch it with your clubhead (without sliding).
Another is to put it in at a 45* angle, half a club length behind you, take a swing and don't ever touch it. This will help you get and stay on-plane through both the backswing and downswing.

[reactive]

Hey all just posting an update and hoping to get some feedback on some thoughts I've had and things I've been noticing as I have been trying to work on my swing and use @Valtieladvice.

Also, @BraxtonFullertonthat first drill was really helpful!

Here is an updated face on:

 

Here is an updated DTL:

I do notice I am still slightly moving my head closer to the ball in my backswing and I am pretty sure it is from adding too much right side bend.  As soon as my downswing starts and I start getting rid of right side bend it seems like my head also moves back to the starting point.  Is this something that is contributing to my (what I am guessing still looks like) my over the top move?  Or is it something I can remove from conscious thought at this point and focus on other things?  I struggle with too many swing thoughts so I am trying to prioritize (or learn really) what my biggest faults are.

I do notice my head moves down a fair amount and stays down throughout the swing too though, is this a problem?

Also here is a video of a swing in full speed:

 

 

It almost seems like I look way too "loose" or unstable or something?  I have been really focusing on trying to stay loose so I can feel and try to use the weight of the clubhead to hit to increase my speed and distance.

I was hitting some pretty decent (for me) shots at the range but I just don't know if the full speed swing looks correct?

Edited September 13, 2021 by reactive
typo

[BraxtonFullerton]

Yes, now that you've fixed your take-away the next step is working on stability.

Look how quick you collapse your front side during your take away:

 

Little bit of a reverse pivot going on. Try to keep that front foot planted a little longer, you're very close (as evidence by your impact position at the end) to where you wanna be...

From the DTL view here's what's happening because you're still moving around a bit:

 

You don't have enough room to clear your swing through because you come forward in the backswing and then it stalls your rotation while you're trying to keep your eyes on the ball. Throw away every other downswing "feel" you're working on. Just get the feeling of getting your hips slammed open as hard as possible.

Here's Billy Horschel during his backswing and then at impact:

 

Hips lead the way!!

Edited September 13, 2021 by BraxtonFullerton

[reactive]

Thanks @BraxtonFullertonfor the feedback and advice!

 

I am curious if my swing looks like it seems better here?

 

@Valtiel Something I am struggling with is my distance from the ball at setup.  Does this still look like I am too close to you?  If so the thing I can't seem to wrap my head around is if I stand further from the ball then I feel like I need to bend over more to get the clubhead to the ball, which seems like my posture gets messed up then?  Speaking of posture, do you see any other issues with mine?  Maybe I need to get fitted for irons at some point but I am 6' tall so pretty standard I assumed.

DTL:

 

Face on:

 

Here is another full speed video, I am curious if this looks somewhat better? Still looks "sloppy" to me though...

From these videos from what I can tell it looks like I am having a really hard time shallowing the club.  Is this still from backswing faults?

My swing felt better but I know I am not being efficient because the ball was not going super far... I guess I would rather have a consistent speed than distance at this point though.

Edited September 13, 2021 by reactive
added info

[BraxtonFullerton]

I like your position at the top MUCH better than where you started from; but you're still getting inside pretty quick and getting steep in the downswing:

  

 

So we need you to flip that backswing and downswing. You should be pulling the club away from your body when you start your swing. Give this video a quick watch, it might help you to compare where you are vs where you should be with your backswing.

 

[reactive]

Okay so, I think I am getting somewhere.  I went to the range for a bit this morning and really tried to reverse my backswing and downswing paths.  I realize I am probably too much outside now with the clubhead but at least it is the opposite of what I was doing.  I definitely need to keep working at it but my strikes were feeling better when I made solid contact.

How do these new videos look compared to the other ones?

DTL (sorry about the low angle):

 

Face on:

 

Face on full speed to view my tempo and flow:

 

[reactive]

@BraxtonFullerton & @Valtiel I think I had a breakthrough. (but I don't want to get to excited until I hear from you all).  I fixed my clubhead path concept this morning and I made really big progress on my lower body movements and stability, at least in the backswing.  I realized the root cause of my lead side collapsing in the backswing was because of my weight shift/pressure was wrong I think.  That is probably one of those things that just can't be diagnosed from video properly also.

Anyway, any input on my progress?  Am I heading in the right direction now? 

I am sorry about the bad DTL angle everyone, I know it is going to be wrong for angles but I had to avoid hitting towards the farmhouse haha.

DTL: 

 

Face on:

 

Face on full speed:

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by reactive

[BraxtonFullerton]

I really like the outside exaggeration, but you're taking it just slightly too far:



Here you are at the start, now watch your spine angle...

 

So just tighten it up a little bit, notice how your swing path (and divot path for that matter) is a little wipey still. That's because you come in a little steep (notice the shaft following your lead arm, instead of trail arm).

Impact position looks MUCH better than where you were:

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, BraxtonFullerton said:

I really like the outside exaggeration, but you're taking it just slightly too far:



Here you are at the start, now watch your spine angle...

 

So just tighten it up a little bit, notice how your swing path (and divot path for that matter) is a little wipey still. That's because you come in a little steep (notice the shaft following your lead arm, instead of trail arm).

Impact position looks MUCH better than where you were:

 

Yup, agreed with Braxton here. We were PMing about this since you tagged us both and I agree there is a LOT that is better here. You're taking nice consistent incremental steps in the right direction after your initial follow up had some troublesome patterns starting, so that is always good. I said to Braxton in our PM's that I think being able to change/exaggerate your takeaway this much, even if a bit too far, is still a very good thing because it is far more common to get stuck within a pattern that you feel like you're changing but actually aren't. I will actually be doing some of this myself soon to work on my takeaway. 

The left side collapsing/head turning is still a bit much though. Is there any feel related to turning your head like that? I'd be curious to see what would happen if you resisted that turning because the small reverse pivot that goes along with that will always weaken your position at the top and thus your ability to move with power in transition. 

[reactive]

19 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The left side collapsing/head turning is still a bit much though. Is there any feel related to turning your head like that?

Thanks for the reply @Valtiel.  The feel I have that causes me to turn my head like that is I think from trying to make a full shoulder turn while keeping my head still and not moving off the ball while also trying to transfer pressure into my right side.  I honestly don't really know why my head tilts like that though..

You think that head tilt could be causing or contributing to my left leg collapsing?  I will work on and pay attention to my head at the range tomorrow.  Just so I know what to look for and can try to self correct when you say "reverse pivot" you are referring to the left leg and my spine angle at the top of backswing?

Edited to add: I think I had way to much weight and pressure going jnto my right leg so the feel I used to somewhat fix (or improve is a better word) my left leg bending in and collapsing was I kept more weight and pressure in my left side toe area and really felt like I was still using some weight to push my left knee down and forward instead of letting it move in.  Maybe feeling like I am staying 50/50 the whole time will help more?

Edited September 15, 2021 by reactive

[BraxtonFullerton]

12 hours ago, reactive said:

Maybe feeling like I am staying 50/50 the whole time will help more?

 

Definitely. It may "rob" you of some yardage, but I've found, especially with the longer clubs, keeping my weight closer to 50/50 helps with control much more than any other swing thought.
It'll allow you to be more stable and hopefully, create better contact, which gives you some of that yardage back that you feel like you're going to lose by not pumping your weight around.

 

You have most of this figured out, you just need to get your lower body to stop collapsing your weight forward during your backswing, and then it's just fine-tuning your swing path and lessening that exaggerated outside move, so you can get even further to your inside in your downswing.

 

Great progress man!!!

Edited September 15, 2021 by BraxtonFullerton