Yardage Books R4.3

[WestCoastGolf]

Is there a rule that yardage books are not allowed to use a satellite image of a hole? I seem to keep being pointed to green reading material, but I am more curious on tee to green. 

 

Rule 4.3 states that: "Interpreting distance or directional information (such as using a device to get a recommended line of play or club selection based on the location of the player’s ball)" is Not Allowed. But isn't that what a yardage book does? Don't yardage books interpret (or give) a player distances as well as directional information?

[antip]

19 minutes ago, WestCoastGolf said:

Is there a rule that yardage books are not allowed to use a satellite image of a hole? I seem to keep being pointed to green reading material, but I am more curious on tee to green. 

 

Rule 4.3 states that: "Interpreting distance or directional information (such as using a device to get a recommended line of play or club selection based on the location of the player’s ball)" is Not Allowed. But isn't that what a yardage book does? Don't yardage books interpret (or give) a player distances as well as directional information?

Yes, but it is just flat factual stuff and such beasts have been around as long as the game. They actually do part of the job that a specific course caddie would do (without sneaking some of your whisky stash). I don't believe there are restrictions on plain satellite images.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, WestCoastGolf said:

Is there a rule that yardage books are not allowed to use a satellite image of a hole? I seem to keep being pointed to green reading material, but I am more curious on tee to green. 

 

Rule 4.3 states that: "Interpreting distance or directional information (such as using a device to get a recommended line of play or club selection based on the location of the player’s ball)" is Not Allowed. But isn't that what a yardage book does? Don't yardage books interpret (or give) a player distances as well as directional information?

 

I believe the key word here is "interpreting".

 

A yardage book, i.e. facts, don't need interpreting. 

[rogolf]

I have a difficult time thinking of a yardage book as a "device".  As noted above, a yardage book does not have the capability of interpreting any data or information, it only presents/shows data and/or information.

[WestCoastGolf]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

I have a difficult time thinking of a yardage book as a "device".  As noted above, a yardage book does not have the capability of interpreting any data or information, it only presents/shows data and/or information.

I would agree with you in thinking of a yardage book as a "device", but then why do the RoG place green reading books under R4.3?

 

So would you penalize someone if they had their own yardage book that they created that had a satellite image of the hole instead of what someone typically sees (the black and white "simple" view)? Am I wrong in my assumption that drawing aiming lines on a yardage is not allowed? As wouldn't that be using a device (a satellite image) to get a recommended line of play?

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, WestCoastGolf said:

I would agree with you in thinking of a yardage book as a "device", but then why do the RoG place green reading books under R4.3?

 

So would you penalize someone if they had their own yardage book that they created that had a satellite image of the hole instead of what someone typically sees (the black and white "simple" view)? Am I wrong in my assumption that drawing aiming lines on a yardage is not allowed? As wouldn't that be using a device (a satellite image) to get a recommended line of play?

I also have a difficult time thinking that a satellite image is a "device"; it's an image.  The image is not providing a "recommended line of play" - you are doing that by drawing lines on the image, and I don't consider that a breach.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, WestCoastGolf said:

I would agree with you in thinking of a yardage book as a "device", but then why do the RoG place green reading books under R4.3?

 

 

Because R4.3 is concerned with Equipment not 'devices'. ie Anything used, worn, held or carried by you or your caddie.

 

[antip]

6 hours ago, WestCoastGolf said:

I would agree with you in thinking of a yardage book as a "device", but then why do the RoG place green reading books under R4.3?

 

So would you penalize someone if they had their own yardage book that they created that had a satellite image of the hole instead of what someone typically sees (the black and white "simple" view)? Am I wrong in my assumption that drawing aiming lines on a yardage is not allowed? As wouldn't that be using a device (a satellite image) to get a recommended line of play?

You can draw any lines, instructions, aimpoints etc you want on a yardage book - other than any part relating to putting greens. There is no constraint on what you draw elsewhere.

 

Is that different than the constraints on green reading material? Absolutely! What is the difference? Green reading material had become a sophisticated industry building on satellite technology and was producing a product so detailed and sophisticated that the USGA/R&A took action - they delivered from January 2019 very detailed regulations identifying new constraints on preparation and use of such materials. To be clear, the constraints relate purely to green reading materials or that component of yardage books that relate to putting greens.

[WestCoastGolf]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Because R4.3 is concerned with Equipment not 'devices'. ie Anything used, worn, held or carried by you or your caddie.

 

So to clarify, you are saying that anything: used, worn, held or carried by you or your caddie is considered equipment and not a device; correct? So then a yardage book and a green reading book are equipment? If they are both considered equipment, why only a clarification on green reading books and not yardage books? 

 

Is it because green reading books got so precise with showing the undulations of greens the governing bodies felt they needed to "reel it back" so to speak? And since most players just use your basic black and white outlines with information they aren't as worried with yardage books?

 

1 hour ago, antip said:

You can draw any lines, instructions, aimpoints etc you want on a yardage book - other than any part relating to putting greens. There is no constraint on what you draw elsewhere.

 

Is that different than the constraints on green reading material? Absolutely! What is the difference? Green reading material had become a sophisticated industry building on satellite technology and was producing a product so detailed and sophisticated that the USGA/R&A took action - they delivered from January 2019 very detailed regulations identifying new constraints on preparation and use of such materials. To be clear, the constraints relate purely to green reading materials or that component of yardage books that relate to putting greens.

I guess I am confused on the difference with the green reading book and yardage book. My understanding with yardage books is that they are using satellite technology as well to map a course, and get yardages to specific points on the course; to include elevation changes (from some yardage books that I have seen). So what would prevent someone from making a very detailed yardage book of a course? There isn't anything written that I have found for taking a satellite view of a hole and adding lines and marks on it with distances, elevations, ideal aiming points, precise yardage increments etc..

[antip]

35 minutes ago, WestCoastGolf said:

 

 

I guess I am confused on the difference with the green reading book and yardage book. My understanding with yardage books is that they are using satellite technology as well to map a course, and get yardages to specific points on the course; to include elevation changes (from some yardage books that I have seen). So what would prevent someone from making a very detailed yardage book of a course? There isn't anything written that I have found for taking a satellite view of a hole and adding lines and marks on it with distances, elevations, ideal aiming points, precise yardage increments etc..

There is no regulatory difference between a yardage book and a green reading book. The restrictions relate solely to when a book is used to read the line of play on the putting green. More specifically, the limitations apply to any stroke a player makes from the putting green and to a stroke made with the putter from anywhere when the player's intention is for the ball to come to rest on the putting green. If a yardage book does not get into this space, the regulations have no relevance.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2018/10/usga-r-a-finalize-limits-on-green-reading-materials-in-golf.html

[Newby]

6 hours ago, WestCoastGolf said:

So to clarify, you are saying that anything: used, worn, held or carried by you or your caddie is considered equipment and not a device; correct? So then a yardage book and a green reading book are equipment?

 

 

I simply quoted the Definition of Equipment "Anything used, worn, held or carried by you or your caddie. is Equipment"

 

Any device which satisfies the definition is Equipment.

 

As to "why only a clarification on green reading books and not yardage books?"

 

That is a quite different question which has been answered elsewhere

Edited November 16, 2021 by Newby

[Newby]

9 hours ago, antip said:

You can draw any lines, instructions, aimpoints etc you want on a yardage book - other than any part relating to putting greens.

Don't such things come under 4 HANDWRITTEN NOTES of the Infographic and are therefore permitted?

Edited November 16, 2021 by Newby

[antip]

7 minutes ago, Newby said:

Don't such things come under 4 HANDWRITTEN NOTES of the Infographic and are therefore permitted?

Anything relating to the putting greens needs to comply with the regulations. Being hand written or hand drawn green maps doesn't place it outside the regulations. The regulations are different for hand written and printed but there are still regulations to be complied with.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, antip said:

Anything relating to the putting greens needs to comply with the regulations. Being hand written or hand drawn green maps doesn't place it outside the regulations. The regulations are different for hand written and printed but there are still regulations to be complied with.

So 4 HANDWRITTEN NOTES permits drawing any lines, instructions, aimpoints etc, relating to greens;  providing steps 2, 3 and 4 are satisfied.

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Newby