Turn, tilt, or both?

[GoGoErky]

12 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I’m not trying to derail this thread I just want to know which it is.

When you turn on the proper plane the tilt happens automatically as they demonstrate in both videos. 
 

Unfortunately they took down the video they did as a reply to Milo’s claims on arms lowering where they talk about when certain movements happen in the correct sequence and things like side bend occur naturally.
 

maybe just try the turn like they talk about in the video and see what happens.

 

 

 

 

[FormerBigDaddy]

15 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

When you turn on the proper plane the tilt happens automatically as they demonstrate in both videos. 
 

Unfortunately they took down the video they did as a reply to Milo’s claims on arms lowering where they talk about when certain movements happen in the correct sequence and things like side bend occur naturally.
 

maybe just try the turn like they talk about in the video and see what happens.

 

 

 

 

I’m with you. For me I naturally don’t turn on the proper plane. But I also tend to over do the side bend as an overreaction. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[GungHoGolf]

3 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I don’t agree that it happens automatically for all. I can rest my head gently on a wall and “just turn” really flat without coming out of posture. The club would stay very low on the ground in this scenario unless my hands/arms are really active in getting the club going upward. 
 

I can also turn using the same wall drill with much more side bend/tilt and my club/hands would automatically work more upward. 
 

Saying to stay and posture and “just turn” doesn’t work for me. Hence the entire thread. 

Do that, but also keep your shoulders working on a plane line perpendicular to your spine angle (confirmed with DTL video). Now you’ll have about the right combination of turn and tilt. 

 

I say “about the right” combination because most good players’ shoulders are a little flatter in the backswing and steeper in the downswing, but just getting them matched up while maintaining posture gets you to a really good place. 

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

They literally say and demonstrate completely opposite things here. It’s not the same…

The end position they get in is very much the same, it's just explained in two different ways. This is a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't, because there is what happens and there is the feel/thought to communicate to a student what to do get the desired result

 

They know full well that the back swing is a combination of turns and tilts, as your shoulders turn you extend your spine and replace your forward bend with left side tilt. This is explained in the 2nd video and anyone worth a lick knows full well this is the case.

 

In the first video they simplify the explanation since the message of the video is how tilted your shoulders are relative to the ground, not the fully detailed sequence of movements to get there. They basically saying you don't need to add any extra left tilt to get into that position since the angle relative to the ground is already mostly preset by your forward bend. So if your intent is to maintain that angle as you turn, you will have to replace forward bend with side tilt.

 

But to call them clowns because they are explaining it in two different ways, yeesh. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

9 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

The end position they get in is very much the same, it's just explained in two different ways. This is a case of damned if they do and damned if they don't, because there is what happens and there is the feel/thought to communicate to a student what to do get the desired result

 

They know full well that the back swing is a combination of turns and tilts, as your shoulders turn you extend your spine and replace your forward bend with left side tilt. This is explained in the 2nd video and anyone worth a lick knows full well this is the case.

 

In the first video they simplify the explanation since the message of the video is how tilted your shoulders are relative to the ground, not the fully detailed sequence of movements to get there. They basically saying you don't need to add any extra left tilt to get into that position since the angle relative to the ground is already mostly preset by your forward bend. So if your intent is to maintain that angle as you turn, you will have to replace forward bend with side tilt.

 

But to call them clowns because they are explaining it in two different ways, yeesh. 

I must be crazy. 
 

They literally say completely opposite things in the videos. 
 

How can you not have to add left tilt if there is none at address? You’re in right tilt because of your trail hand being lower on the club. So for him to say in the first video that you don’t have to add left tilt cannot be possibly right?  
 

Let’s simplify this… should I just pay attention to the second video and disregard the first since it confuses me?

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[GoGoErky]

5 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I must be crazy. 
 

They literally say completely opposite things in the videos. 

Or you just dont grasp what they are saying. 

[Krt22]

Just now, GoGoErky said:

Or you just dont grasp what they are saying. 

Winner winner chicken dinner. That tends to happen when you are thickskulled with an obvious bias. 

[FormerBigDaddy]

8 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Winner winner chicken dinner. That tends to happen when you are thickskulled with an obvious bias. 

I have no bias. I just want to know which it is. second video?

 

I personally think in the first video Mike and Shaun explain it differently...  Shaun's makes a lot more sense to me i guess.

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[Krt22]

They are the same thing, explained in two different manners. You can't get into the position they advocate in video 1 if you don't do the moves detailed in video 2.

 

As was explained in 2021 

 

On 11/30/2021 at 7:56 AM, mikpga said:

The spine tilts, extends, and turns...

 

 

 

On 12/1/2021 at 7:25 AM, mikpga said:

You simply replace the forward flex you have at address with lateral flexion (side bend/tilt), as the spine turns and extends in order to maintain your inclination to the ground during the backswing.

 

[FormerBigDaddy]

28 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

They are the same thing, explained in two different manners. You can't get into the position they advocate in video 1 if you don't do the moves detailed in video 2.

 

As was explained in 2021 

 

 

 

Yeah and I had a follow up question to @mikpga but the AMG video confused me.  Maybe you can help me...

Standing upright you obviously have no forward tilt so you wouldn't need to add left tilt to turn 90* to your spine.  In my analogy if you were hitting a golf ball off of a high tee (think baseball batting tee) this is how you'd turn and basically what Mike demos in the first video when he is standing up.  

 

However, once you introduce forward tilt (when hitting ball from the ground), everyone seems to agree you need to now introduce left tilt as you turn.  This should now feel pretty different then when standing straight up, right?  If it's not supposed to then I'm probably way overdoing left tilt in my turn.

 

All I'm trying to figure out is if the 2 turns should feel the same or if the one a bent over position should feel different.

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by FormerBigDaddy

[GoGoErky]

46 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

However, once you introduce forward tilt (when hitting ball from the ground), everyone seems to agree you need to now introduce left tilt as you turn.  This should now feel pretty different then when standing straight up, right?  If it's not supposed to then I'm probably way overdoing left tilt in my turn.

 

All I'm trying to figure out is if the 2 turns should feel the same or if the one a bent over position should feel different.

Literally what’s explained in both videos. The feel is also explained which is it’s the same as well as how to do it was explained in both videos. The feel is turn the left shoulder over midline and you are in the correct position. Because this creates left tilt/side bend you are going to feel that as a result 

 

in the second video Shaun says here’s an easy way to do it and asks mike to hold his head and says hit turn

Edited February 15, 2023 by GoGoErky

[GungHoGolf]

44 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

However, once you introduce forward tilt (when hitting ball from the ground), everyone seems to agree you need to now introduce left tilt as you turn.  This should now feel pretty different then when standing straight up, right?  If it's not supposed to then I'm probably way overdoing left tilt in my turn.

Feels different than turning while straight up to me, for sure. I feel a crunch on the lead side and extension on the trail side. But feels are different for everyone. 

 

Take DTL photos or video of yourself at address and at the top and see if your shoulders are roughly perpendicular to your 2D spine angle at the top and you have maintained the spine angle you had at address. If they are, you’re doing it right and that’s the feel you should have. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[FormerBigDaddy]

13 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Literally what’s explained in both videos. The feel is also explained which is it’s the same as well as how to do it was explained in both videos. Turn the left shoulder over midline and you are in the correct position 

11 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Feels different than turning while straight up to me, for sure. I feel a crunch on the lead side and extension on the trail side. But feels are different for everyone. 

 

Take DTL photos or video of yourself at address and at the top and see if your shoulders are roughly perpendicular to your 2D spine angle at the top and you have maintained the spine angle you had at address. If they are, you’re doing it right and that’s the feel you should have. 

To me it makes sense for it to feel different.  If we're adding side bend there would be a crunch like you described in the lead side.  But AMG said in the first video you're not adding anything.  But in the second they say you tilt, turn, extend. But @GoGoErky says they feel the same.  

At what point do we say... it depends on your swing?  Someone who turns flatter (but stays in posture) would need more vertical arm lift?  Those who tilt with lead side bend more need to feel less vertical arm lift?  

 

[Krt22]

How it feels and the thought/intent to get the correct motions are going to be completely golfer dependent. This is where you need some sort of feedback (video) or an instructor.

 

Or just be an athlete 

 

[GoGoErky]

36 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

But AMG said in the first video you're not adding anything.  But in the second they say you tilt, turn, extend. But @GoGoErky says they feel the same.  

At what point do we say... it depends on your swing?  Someone who turns flatter (but stays in posture) would need more vertical arm lift?  Those who tilt with lead side bend more need to feel less vertical arm lift?  

They say you don’t need to purposely add anything which is what Shaun shows in the second video when he just turns while Mike holds his head. They don’t say anything different in the two videos, you just aren’t grasping that.

 

Feels are golfer dependent so what you end up feeling in your lead side is going to be different than why I or someone else feels, but the feel of turning the shoulder while standing up and then true feel of turning the shoulder in golf posture feels the same, what feels different is as I mentioned due to the shoulder turn I feel the effects of the side bend it creates. 
 

As I understand it if you turn flatter you aren’t turning on the proper plane and thus not staying in posture. 
 

The side bend is created by the tilt the shoulders turn creates that’s what they explain in both videos. Everyone’s arm lift is going to be different just like how much they can turn, etc. 

 

so if you aren’t in a good golf posture to start with you aren’t going to turn on the proper plane which you have already said you don’t do so maybe work on that first

[betarhoalphadelta]

39 minutes ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

To me it makes sense for it to feel different.  If we're adding side bend there would be a crunch like you described in the lead side.  But AMG said in the first video you're not adding anything.  But in the second they say you tilt, turn, extend. 

 

 

Honestly, you're way overthinking this. They are trying to explain the same concept in two different ways. 

 

It seems like you're getting wound up in the the bend and tilts, and technical jargon. You should spend less time worrying about that, and more worrying about what you need to actually do.

 

Earlier you said this:

 

3 hours ago, FormerBigDaddy said:

I’m with you. For me I naturally don’t turn on the proper plane. But I also tend to over do the side bend as an overreaction. 

 

If that's the case, then working on turning on plane is the goal. Don't worry about tilts, or bends or anything. Set up a video camera down the line, and look at what you do. 

 

1. At address, you will have a certain amount of spine inclination to the ground. This is your starting angle to pay attention to at all times. Heck, if you have the capability, draw a line on screen so you can refer to it. I don't have video software which allows this, but if you screenshot it you can simply use MS Paint lol.  
2. Focus SOLELY on turning around that inclination. Meaning your right hip goes up and back, your left hip down and around. Your right shoulder goes up and back, your left shoulder down and under the chin. 
3. On the video, look at your position at the top. Observe your spine plane (draw another line if necessary). Draw another line through your shoulder plane. (Again, screenshot + MS Paint if that's all you have).

 

At the top (and actually all throughout the backswing), your spine inclination should be identical to the line at address. At the top, your shoulder plane line should be perpendicular to the spine inclination line at address. 

 

If you can do that, then don't worry about tilts or bends or anything, because they're where they're supposed to be. If you're *not* doing that, than you're not turning on the proper plane, and those lines will clearly show it. Repeat it until you do it right.