Journey to Scratch

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, MrFlipper said:

Hey @dvq9654 you're probably aware of this, and I know you can't always pick where you hit balls, but be wary of ranges like Rancho Park that have mats and are hard and  unforgiving, even for mats. Hard on your body, hard on your clubs, and you may groove some habits that you don't want. Just a thought. 

 

Little nuggets of wisdom like this can be valuable. I've never had health concerns from hitting mats but I have noticed that I tend to start excessively flipping more than usual. Mats can produce some beautiful, high iron shots--and that "practice" can be addictive--but spending too much time on mats can send your swing into a tailspin when you find yourself out on the course struggling to control precisely where your iron shots are going. 

 

Another piece of good advice is to love your 5-iron (or 6-iron 😉 ). While it's true that you have to spend the majority of your practice time on driving, putting and wedge shots, iron play obviously has to become somewhat automatic if you're going to hit tons of GIR.

 

Not surprisingly, several of the +1 / +2 type golfers I've seen over the years have an edge when it comes to hitting pure mid- and long-irons. They hit it slightly further and slightly higher than I do. And then tend to hit it real straight, too, LOL.

 

Try not to get stuck hitting too many short irons. One of the better golfers I met in 2020 told me his 5-iron was his favorite club. He explained how he hit it all over the course: fairway finder, long par-3 holes, attacking par-5 holes, recovery shots, etc. 

 

By comparison, it hadn't really occurred to me to practice my 5-iron at all. But I suppose if you can hit the 5-iron, the shorter irons will come as a matter of course. 

 

 

To get to scratch (and beyond) you may find it necessary to start weaponizing some your longer clubs in ways they aren't at the present stage.

 

Am I good enough to think "attack" when I've got a 5-iron in my hand? 

 

For me, not really.

. 

Edited January 20, 2022 by MelloYello

[dvq9654]

7 hours ago, Obee said:

 

That's a nice, connected move you have there. Would love to see a driver. You should be able to get below scratch with that action. Wondering what's holding you back now. How's the short game inside, say, 50 yards? What are your weaknesses there?

 

Appreciate it, but, to be fair, this version of my swing is the best it's been after grinding over the last couple years. The regular changes, while yielding considerable improvements over time, have resulted in a lot of inconsistency and periods where my swing felt very unnatural (e.g., a period of big draws / blocks, inconsistent contact, you name it). I'm at a point where I feel pretty good about my swing and my contact is as good as ever. I also have less curve than I've ever had. Now it's a matter of grooving the swing, feeling comfortable with my ball flight and trusting my lines, while making incremental improvements over time (vs. wholesale changes).  

 

In terms of scoring, I'm pretty good with a wedge in my hand, which has been a savior during times when my swing felt very off. I've been made fun of in that it can seem like I'm shooting 90 but will walk away with a 75. It's not always that way, but it's a strength more so than weakness. If there is a notable weakness, it's mid-range putting (two putt everything; would like to make more) and bunkers (struggle with variable conditions at less than stellar courses). 

 

My hypothesis is that by making my tee game more consistent, continuing to gain comfort / get better with my ball striking and not neglecting my short game (with some incremental mid-range putting improvement), I can get to my goal. I plan to test that hypothesis often, so we shall see...

[milesgiles]

12 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

 

Appreciate it, but, to be fair, this version of my swing is the best it's been after grinding over the last couple years. The regular changes, while yielding considerable improvements over time, have resulted in a lot of inconsistency and periods where my swing felt very unnatural (e.g., a period of big draws / blocks, inconsistent contact, you name it). I'm at a point where I feel pretty good about my swing and my contact is as good as ever. I also have less curve than I've ever had. Now it's a matter of grooving the swing, feeling comfortable with my ball flight and trusting my lines, while making incremental improvements over time (vs. wholesale changes).  

 

In terms of scoring, I'm pretty good with a wedge in my hand, which has been a savior during times when my swing felt very off. I've been made fun of in that it can seem like I'm shooting 90 but will walk away with a 75. It's not always that way, but it's a strength more so than weakness. If there is a notable weakness, it's mid-range putting (two putt everything; would like to make more) and bunkers (struggle with variable conditions at less than stellar courses). 

 

My hypothesis is that by making my tee game more consistent, continuing to gain comfort / get better with my ball striking and not neglecting my short game (with some incremental mid-range putting improvement), I can get to my goal. I plan to test that hypothesis often, so we shall see...

 

whats your ss with driver? If its not more than 105 (could be wrong but doesnt look like it) I strongly suggest you bang heads with Obee, who has been a genuine travelling scratch with moderate swing speed.. He's kind of the inspiration for guys like us

Edited January 21, 2022 by milesgiles

[dvq9654]

10 hours ago, milesgiles said:

 

whats your ss with driver? If its not more than 105 (could be wrong but doesnt look like it) I strongly suggest you bang heads with Obee, who has been a genuine travelling scratch with moderate swing speed.. He's kind of the inspiration for guys like us

 

I haven't been on trackman with a driver for a while, but pretty sure I'm somewhere between 105 and 110 and more likely in the 106-107 range. My good drives are around 285-290, assuming my driver is cooperating that day and its normal weather (e.g., not early AM, cold, etc.) 

 

This seems to line up with other club distances and various swing speed charts I've seen (e.g., 155 yard 8 iron = ~107 swing speed)

[MelloYello]

13 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

 

I haven't been on trackman with a driver for a while, but pretty sure I'm somewhere between 105 and 110 and more likely in the 106-107 range. My good drives are around 285-290, assuming my driver is cooperating that day and its normal weather (e.g., not early AM, cold, etc.) 

 

This seems to line up with other club distances and various swing speed charts I've seen (e.g., 155 yard 8 iron = ~107 swing speed)

 

To me, that would not seem short on the kind of regular courses normal people play. 

 

105 mph is to 6,500-yds what 120 mph is to 7,400. 

 

When I see guys who are swinging 115+ mph on courses of reasonable length they are more often than not struggling to fit those distances (and those misses) in where the course isn't really designed for it. 

 

I think ~110 mph is precisely where you want to be unless you plan to get comfortable taking some "silly" lines. Don't get me wrong, I've seen guys do it but it results in a lot of doubles and triples, too. 

 

I played with an aspiring Pro like that a couple weeks ago. Granted he shot 72 but he erased his 6-7 birdies with multiple doubles and triples. It's a weird thing to watch. Not sure that's how you want to play unless you plan on competing over on those 7,400-yd courses. If you're going to eventually tee it up on those super-long courses, you will need that extra gear for sure. 

 

.

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by MelloYello

[dvq9654]

2 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

To me, that would not seem short on the kind of regular courses normal people play. 

 

105 mph is to 6,500-yds what 120 mph is to 7,400. 

 

When I see guys who are swinging 115+ mph on courses of reasonable length they are more often than not struggling to fit those distances (and those misses) in where the course isn't really designed for it. 

 

I think ~110 mph is precisely where you want to be unless you plan to get comfortable taking some "silly" lines. Don't get me wrong, I've seen guys do it but it results in a lot of doubles and triples, too. 

 

.

 

Agree. I don't think I'm a short hitter. I know I'm not WRX long and would like to hit it farther like everyone else

 

I played from 7100 yards last weekend and distance was never an issue. I generally don't play from that length, but I can handle it 

 

Mostly I play from ~6700-6800, which is pretty comfortable outside of some longer par 3s

[MelloYello]

10 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

Agree. I don't think I'm a short hitter. I know I'm not WRX long and would like to hit it farther like everyone else

 

I played from 7100 yards last weekend and distance was never an issue. I generally don't play from that length, but I can handle it 

 

Mostly I play from ~6700-6800, which is pretty comfortable outside of some longer par 3s

 

Yeah, I think course design(s) tend to vary with length. Longer courses do sometimes open up opportunities with straight(ish) holes where hitting it 10-20 yards longer reduces the approach accordingly. 

 

Shorter courses tend to have more...eh, character, LOL. I often find shorter courses come along with more of that "hit to a spot" strategy. 

 

I would love to play longer courses that invited more of the power game. Unfortunately, I don't really get that where I live. Courses here max out about 7k. I think the climate & hills would make it too tough.

 

At elevation? No problem, give the course length, the ball will carry. At flatter coastal courses? No biggie, the ball will release. Hilly courses built to snake through housing developments? No so much, LOL. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by MelloYello

[dvq9654]

Weekly Recap

Handicap: 1.6 

Change to Handicap: Unchanged

Range Sessions: 3 plus a pre-round warmup

Rounds Played: 1 

 

Managed to make it to range early AM Thursday and Friday, and practiced again Saturday in lieu of playing due to a windstorm. Was really happy with the range sessions and think I made some progress with both irons and driver. 

 

However, played a quick 9 this afternoon and everything that was working on the range was NOT working on the course. Was very much stuck in a place where I couldn't feel what I was doing on the range but couldn't feel my "normal" swing. Not a good place to be. Sprayed my driver all over the place and was basically blocked out on 4 holes. Saved a few pars with my short game, but also threw in a 3 putt on 9 because I had lost all focus at that point. Walked off with a 41 and couldn't leave the course quickly enough.

 

Not the end of the world, and I've come to realize my worst rounds tend to follow periods where I'm making real change on the range, so will pretend that's the case here and continue to press forward. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

13 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

 

Managed to make it to range early AM Thursday and Friday, and practiced again Saturday in lieu of playing due to a windstorm. Was really happy with the range sessions and think I made some progress with both irons and driver. 

 

 

It was fun out there on Saturday! I hit the longest drives of my entire life! 😉 

 

Granted, my score was terrible, but I think that's my lack of skill, not the wind's fault. 

 

[dvq9654]

Weekly Recap (as of Saturday 1/29)

 

Handicap: 1.6 

Change to Handicap: Unchanged

Range Sessions: 2 plus pre-round warmup 

Rounds Played: 1 (with one more to play Sunday) 

 

This was a good week. I shared a driver swing with Monte early in the week and he pointed out that my right hip was getting too low in the downswing. Given my driver has been my most annoying club, decided to really focus on this for my range sessions (along with standard wedge practice). My first range session was pretty inconsistent, but I started to feel / see the difference in quality of strike and accuracy when my right hip stayed high. Took the momentum from this session and had a very focused session with a small bucket of 30 balls. In this session I literally filmed and reviewed every single swing to ensure feel was real. Video started to show results, so left the range happy. 

 

Today, I warmed up at the range and on the putting green, and then played 18 at the local muni. Round summary directly below. 

 

Course Par: 72

Yards: 7023

Course Rating: 71.9

Slope: 119 

Score: 75

Fairways: 9/14

Greens: 11/18 (three others within 3 feet of green)

Putts: 30 

Birdies, Pars, etc.: 1 birdie, 14 pars, 2 bogeys, 1 double 

Up and Downs with 30 yards: 5/8

Strokes Gained (Per Arccos): Overall (+1.1), Driving (+2), Approach (-0.5), Short (+0.9), Putting (-1.4)

 

This was the best (or worst?) 75 I've shot in a long time. Overall, I struck the ball incredibly well and can't imagine scoring any higher than I did. While this could be viewed as a negative, I'll take it as a positive because it could have just as easily turned into a 70 (or better) with a few minor improvements. 

 

Positives: 

Driver - The practice with the driver paid massive dividends. I was hitting it ~300 yards, which is longer than normal, pretty darn close to my aim points, most often with a very controlled fade. Probably the most in control of my start line / curvature with a driver I've felt in months, which is a huge positive. Keeping my right hip higher / back really allows me to "surf" into my left side and seems to take wild shots out of play. I'm sure this won't last forever, but it's certainly a step in the right direction 

 

Full Swing Irons / Wedges - Recent changes have resulted in some of the purest strikes I've ever had. Hit two super crisp PWs to ~8ft, hit some solid long irons and generally made well balanced, pure strikes. Very little curve as well. I'm also getting much more well-aligned and breaking my habit of aiming way to far right (result of overdrawing for years)

 

Areas to Improve:

Putting - The practice green was pure and fast (which I love), but the course was slow and bumpy. I hit a number of good putts, but just couldn't get the ball to the hole. This got in my head a bit and I missed what felt like a handful of makeable ~7-10 footers. Some days those just don't go down, but speed control really kicked my butt today 

 

"Tweener" Wedges - Due to my strong driving, I had a lot of 60-85 yard wedges. I didn't do terribly but wasn't able to knock anything close. I have my days where I'm good, but today was just "meh". I did hit a really cool, spinny 54 from ~60 yards which I'll try to replicate going forward. I think I may pull my 58 more often than I should so making an effort to try out the 54 

 

Long Par 3s - I had a double and bogey on 230 and 210 yard par 3s. First bogey wasn't terrible, but the double was mainly due to a mental lapse. Tried to get cute and hit a choked down 3 wood and made a terrible swing. Then, thought I hit a great recovery shot, but due to the elevated green got caught up in the rough and didn't get up and down from there. Few lessons from that one: 1) don't try shots you haven't practiced (e.g., cute 3 woods); 2) get the ball on the darn green when trying to recover; and 3) I don't have a good gap between my 3 iron and 3 wood, so may need to think about how to better attack a 230 yard par 3

 

Playing again tomorrow at the same track. Really hope I can continue the strides with my driver. That will be a massive development and certainly give me more confidence as I continue to work towards this goal

[dvq9654]

Played again today. Shot 76. Very similar round to yesterday, but my bad shots were worse. Summary is below, with quick takeaways. 

 

Course Par: 72

Yards: 7023

Course Rating: 71.9

Slope: 119 

Score: 76

Fairways: 7/14

Greens: 11/18 

Putts: 32 

Birdies, Pars, etc.: 2 birdies, 11 pars, 4 bogeys, 1 double 

Up and Downs with 30 yards: 6/10 

Strokes Gained (Per Arccos): Overall (+0.3), Driving (+1.7), Approach (-1.7), Short (+1.2), Putting (-1.0)

 

Positives:

Driving - Solid again. Hung back on a few early in the round and hit some a little snappy that cost me at least one stroke, but overall another good performance 

 

Short game (not putting) - Felt really comfortable with a wedge in my hand anywhere within ~40 yards

 

Negatives:

Putting - Just like yesterday, gave myself a ton of 8-15 foot putts for birdie and just couldn't convert anything. Today though, I felt like I rolled it better, just often overread the putts or respected the downhill too much. I need to drill it into my head that at LA munis, putts are slow and straighter / harder is usually better 

 

Long Par 3s - Three of the par 3s were playing 210+ today, with the other at 190. I don't mind the two that are ~210, but the 15th hole at this course is just ridiculous. It was 240 into the wind today. I just don't have that shot in my bag. I think I need to consider getting a 2 hybrid or 5 wood or something for holes like this, cause a soft 3 wood isn't going to work and a hard 3 iron isn't consistent either

 

Tweener Wedges - Same as yesterday 

 

Other:

Strokes Gained: How can I be plus when compared to a scratch while shooting 76. Something doesn't add up... 

 

Fun weekend overall. My good strikes are best they've been, but just not consistent enough or putting well enough to take advantage. Will stay the course with my range work but need to add in more putting practice. Anyone have any good drills for mid-range putting? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by dvq9654

[MelloYello]

Great playing.

 

I've been thinking about the difference between being a 2-index and a scratch and I think it lies in Birdies-per-Round. It's one thing to drive it well and play solid golf. Maybe you make a couple bogeys but you keep it respectable. Shooting 73-75 on good days keeps your index low, but it's still not threatening scratch. 

 

Your above rounds show exactly why guys like you and me sit above scratch -- we don't make birdies. 

 

It's great to figure out a course off the tee and give yourself tons of GIRs -- and pars are good -- but at some point your A-game has to start producing rounds that contain 4-5 birdies so that you're legitimately 1-3 strokes under par at the end. 

 

Your putts per round (30, 32) don't look disastrous. I think you just need to sharpen your iron-play so that you can make those couple extra birdies per round. All the elite golfers I know are able to drop some dimes with their irons when they're swinging well. They knock a couple stiff and tap in for birdie 1-2 times more per round than I do. That's the difference -- unless you're real good at holing 20-footers, LOL! 

 

Sharpening my iron play is something I'm going to work on hard over the next few months. Proximity is really key here, I think. 

 

[Obee]

15 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

Played again today. Shot 76. Very similar round to yesterday, but my bad shots were worse. Summary is below, with quick takeaways. 

 

Course Par: 72

Yards: 7023

Course Rating: 71.9

Slope: 119 

Score: 76

Fairways: 7/14

Greens: 11/18 

Putts: 32 

Birdies, Pars, etc.: 2 birdies, 11 pars, 4 bogeys, 1 double 

Up and Downs with 30 yards: 6/10 

Strokes Gained (Per Arccos): Overall (+0.3), Driving (+1.7), Approach (-1.7), Short (+1.2), Putting (-1.0)

 

Positives:

Driving - Solid again. Hung back on a few early in the round and hit some a little snappy that cost me at least one stroke, but overall another good performance 

 

Short game (not putting) - Felt really comfortable with a wedge in my hand anywhere within ~40 yards

 

Negatives:

Putting - Just like yesterday, gave myself a ton of 8-15 foot putts for birdie and just couldn't convert anything. Today though, I felt like I rolled it better, just often overread the putts or respected the downhill too much. I need to drill it into my head that at LA munis, putts are slow and straighter / harder is usually better 

 

Long Par 3s - Three of the par 3s were playing 210+ today, with the other at 190. I don't mind the two that are ~210, but the 15th hole at this course is just ridiculous. It was 240 into the wind today. I just don't have that shot in my bag. I think I need to consider getting a 2 hybrid or 5 wood or something for holes like this, cause a soft 3 wood isn't going to work and a hard 3 iron isn't consistent either

 

Tweener Wedges - Same as yesterday 

 

Other:

Strokes Gained: How can I be plus when compared to a scratch while shooting 76. Something doesn't add up... 

 

Fun weekend overall. My good strikes are best they've been, but just not consistent enough or putting well enough to take advantage. Will stay the course with my range work but need to add in more putting practice. Anyone have any good drills for mid-range putting? 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you playing Encino golf course? Or Alhambra? I can't believe that a 7000 yard golf course has a rating of 71.9 and a slope of 119. 
 

also, a quick check: are you playing the permanent monuments on every hole? Otherwise, you are playing the golf course shorter than the stated length which makes it even easier. Most public golf courses do not put the movable markers anywhere near the back tees for pace of play reasons.

 

and if you are in SoCal, let's get you out to my course soon. Would love to see your game in person. I can't play at all right now as my back spasms are so bad, but I would be happy to drive around with you and give you my thoughts.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Obee

[dvq9654]

11 hours ago, MelloYello said:

Great playing.

 

I've been thinking about the difference between being a 2-index and a scratch and I think it lies in Birdies-per-Round. It's one thing to drive it well and play solid golf. Maybe you make a couple bogeys but you keep it respectable. Shooting 73-75 on good days keeps your index low, but it's still not threatening scratch. 

 

Your above rounds show exactly why guys like you and me sit above scratch -- we don't make birdies. 

 

It's great to figure out a course off the tee and give yourself tons of GIRs -- and pars are good -- but at some point your A-game has to start producing rounds that contain 4-5 birdies so that you're legitimately 1-3 strokes under par at the end. 

 

Your putts per round (30, 32) don't look disastrous. I think you just need to sharpen your iron-play so that you can make those couple extra birdies per round. All the elite golfers I know are able to drop some dimes with their irons when they're swinging well. They knock a couple stiff and tap in for birdie 1-2 times more per round than I do. That's the difference -- unless you're real good at holing 20-footers, LOL! 

 

Sharpening my iron play is something I'm going to work on hard over the next few months. Proximity is really key here, I think. 

 

I totally agree. I think my scores this weekend were reflective of not making enough birdies while also throwing in a double each round (doubles are more infrequent than this weekend indicated, but also a sign of changes...). 

 

I think making more birdies is at least partially proximity related, and I also think getting only one to two more ~10-footer to drop per round would make a huge difference. The reason I say partially is I hit quite a few with 15 feet and just couldn't get anything to fall, so feel like my putting was equally the culprit. 

 

I'll keep posting rounds and we'll see if I can pump up those birdie numbers 

[dvq9654]

11 hours ago, Obee said:

Are you playing Encino golf course? Or Alhambra? I can't believe that a 7000 yard golf course has a rating of 71.9 and a slope of 119. 
 

also, a quick check: are you playing the permanent monuments on every hole? Otherwise, you are playing the golf course shorter than the stated length which makes it even easier. Most public golf courses do not put the movable markers anywhere near the back tees for pace of play reasons.

 

and if you are in SoCal, let's get you out to my course soon. Would love to see your game in person. I can't play at all right now as my back spasms are so bad, but I would be happy to drive around with you and give you my thoughts.

These rounds were at Encino. Do you mean you think it should be rated higher? I somewhat understand the rating as there really isn't much trouble. That said, there are a couple 460+ yard par 4s and a couple 220+ yard par 3s, so the distance can definitely cause some pain if you aren't striking it well 

 

In terms of the monuments, I find Encino to mark them pretty true. Ironically, they often move up the shorter holes vs. the longer ones. Your point is noted, and I'll definitely keep that in mind going forward

 

And thanks for the invite. Will shoot you a DM when my schedule is a bit more clear 

[bortass]

On 1/30/2022 at 7:05 PM, dvq9654 said:

 

 

Other:

Strokes Gained: How can I be plus when compared to a scratch while shooting 76. Something doesn't add up... 

 

Have you changed your comparison HCP setting at all lately? I just went into Arccos, mobile app, not the web app, and changed the comparison HCP from 12 to 0 in the stats screen for a round. It updated the SG of that round and it was in the ball park of my score. I then went into another round and it was showing my the SG compared to a 12 even though 0 was selected. I had to open the HCP selector and just hit apply without changing the actual HCP, then it showed the correct values.

 

My only other thought is it's because SG is based on averages and fractions of a stroke. This is all made up since I have nothing to do with Arccos and am not a statistician/actuary. Everything is done in the context of an individual shot without looking at what you actually scored on the hole. It's based on where the ball started and where the ball ended. Say you hit a so so shot and it costs you 1 stroke on the card but for SG it wasn't terrible and was SG -0.25. You now have a variance between your actual score and the SG number of 0.75. This could even out based on the other shots in your round but you only had 76 of them, so there's not as many chances for that balancing to occur. Compare that to when I shoot 100. Arccos has plenty of shots to use, so things are more likely to average out to me than it would for you.

 

I think that's why the individual round stats are good for saying roughly how well did I do  in that round compared to my other rounds. The player feature where you can select the number of rounds to use is a more accurate picture of your overall game, assuming you selected 10+ rounds. 

[MelloYello]

12 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

I totally agree. I think my scores this weekend were reflective of not making enough birdies while also throwing in a double each round (doubles are more infrequent than this weekend indicated, but also a sign of changes...). 

 

I think making more birdies is at least partially proximity related, and I also think getting only one to two more ~10-footer to drop per round would make a huge difference. The reason I say partially is I hit quite a few with 15 feet and just couldn't get anything to fall, so feel like my putting was equally the culprit. 

 

I'll keep posting rounds and we'll see if I can pump up those birdie numbers 

 

I too have made a couple recent doubles for the first time in what feels like forever. It's such a frustrating feeling! 

 

Re: Making 10-footers

 

It can feel instinctively true that the shorter a putt, the more likely we are to see it on the course: 3-footers are the most common, 10-footers less common, 20-footers are less common still, etc. But I'm not sure that's true. 

 

It might be worthwhile to assess whether you actually see enough 10-footers in a round to expect yourself to make one or two. Consider 2 cases which make up the majority of your golf holes: 

 

(1) A bad approach is 40-ft off and misses the green. You chip this to 5-ft and hope to sink a critical "short" putt. 

 

(2) A decent approach is 20-ft off. You lag the first putt to 1-ft and tap it in.

 

The above cases are the vast majority of golf and they never leave 10-foot putts. It's worth considering this fundamental pattern. 

 

If you're looking to make more 10-footers (which we all are) it means hitting your irons really close more often (or chipping terribly, LOL). So in reality you're not saving the strokes with the putter without simultaneously contributing with the iron-play as well. 

 

In short, if you want to make more 10-footers, you have to generate more looks from that range. 

 

.

Edited February 1, 2022 by MelloYello

[dvq9654]

1 hour ago, bortass said:

Have you changed your comparison HCP setting at all lately? I just went into Arccos, mobile app, not the web app, and changed the comparison HCP from 12 to 0 in the stats screen for a round. It updated the SG of that round and it was in the ball park of my score. I then went into another round and it was showing my the SG compared to a 12 even though 0 was selected. I had to open the HCP selector and just hit apply without changing the actual HCP, then it showed the correct values.

 

My only other thought is it's because SG is based on averages and fractions of a stroke. This is all made up since I have nothing to do with Arccos and am not a statistician/actuary. Everything is done in the context of an individual shot without looking at what you actually scored on the hole. It's based on where the ball started and where the ball ended. Say you hit a so so shot and it costs you 1 stroke on the card but for SG it wasn't terrible and was SG -0.25. You now have a variance between your actual score and the SG number of 0.75. This could even out based on the other shots in your round but you only had 76 of them, so there's not as many chances for that balancing to occur. Compare that to when I shoot 100. Arccos has plenty of shots to use, so things are more likely to average out to me than it would for you.

 

I think that's why the individual round stats are good for saying roughly how well did I do  in that round compared to my other rounds. The player feature where you can select the number of rounds to use is a more accurate picture of your overall game, assuming you selected 10+ rounds. 

 

I have it set against a zero (just double checked; thanks for pointing out it may reset on its own though). I definitely agree it must be based on averages and not necessarily when a scratch is posting a score that gets them to scratch (e.g., 1/4 of their rounds). I just find it interesting that most of my rounds are close to scratch or better (as was the case this weekend) when those rounds aren't even sniffing a zero differential. 

 

I like Arccos because it shows what part of your game was weaker on any given round and over longer-term averages, so will keep tracking it. I just need to divorce myself from the actual values, at least to some extent, and focus on the areas that pop up as negative strokes most often (e.g., longer approach shots, 10-25 foot putts, etc.)

 

 

[dvq9654]

28 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I too have made a couple recent doubles for the first time in what feels like forever. It's such a frustrating feeling! 

 

Re: Making 10-footers

 

It can feel instinctively true that the shorter a putt, the more likely we are to see it on the course: 3-footers are the most common, 10-footers less common, 20-footers are less common still, etc. But I'm not sure that's true. 

 

It might be worthwhile to assess whether you actually see enough 10-footers in a round to expect yourself to make one or two. Consider 2 cases which make up the majority of your golf holes: 

 

(1) A bad approach is 40-ft off and misses the green. You chip this to 5-ft and hope to sink a critical "short" putt. 

 

(2) A decent approach is 20-ft off. You lag the first putt to 1-ft and tap it in.

 

The above cases are the vast majority of golf and they never leave 10-foot putts. It's worth considering this fundamental pattern. 

 

If you're looking to make more 10-footers (which we all are) it means hitting your irons really close more often (or chipping terribly, LOL). So in reality you're not saving the strokes with the putter without simultaneously contributing with the iron-play as well. 

 

In short, if you want to make more 10-footers, you have to generate more looks from that range. 

 

.

This is fair. I may be using the term ~10 feet too liberally, so may need to start pacing off my putts to better understand how long they actually are. That said, look back to Sunday's round, I have the following putts on GIRs I would say are mid-range and makable from time to time:

 

Hole 1 - ~15 feet - approach with a 50; missed the putt 

Hole 2 - ~8 feet - chipped to 8 feet from 30 yards; made the putt 

Hole 8 - ~15 feet - short par 4, pitched to ~15 feet from ~40 yards; missed the putt 

Hole 10 - ~2 feet - almost chipped in for eagle; made the birdie putt

Hole 13 - ~10 feet - pitched to ~10 feet from ~70 yards; missed the putt 

Hole 14 - ~8 feet - PW in close; missed the putt 

Hole 16 - 6 iron from 180 to ~15 feet; missed the putt 

Hole 18 - 50 degree to ~12 feet; missed the putt

 

The feet very well may be off cause I'm going from memory, and I could be underestimating length. That said, that is 8 putts I feel like I at least had a chance of making, and I only made two, one of which was from two feet. Now, I would never expect to make more than a couple more, but it feels like I could improve a bit on these types of putts, drain one or two more a round and increase my birdies per round. I could be wrong and could be chasing a pipe dream, but I want to at least try to improve on putting in this distance range. 

 

[Obee]

11 minutes ago, dvq9654 said:

This is fair. I may be using the term ~10 feet too liberally, so may need to start pacing off my putts to better understand how long they actually are. That said, look back to Sunday's round, I have the following putts on GIRs I would say are mid-range and makable from time to time:

 

Hole 1 - ~15 feet - approach with a 50; missed the putt 

Hole 2 - ~8 feet - chipped to 8 feet from 30 yards; made the putt 

Hole 8 - ~15 feet - short par 4, pitched to ~15 feet from ~40 yards; missed the putt 

Hole 10 - ~2 feet - almost chipped in for eagle; made the birdie putt

Hole 13 - ~10 feet - pitched to ~10 feet from ~70 yards; missed the putt 

Hole 14 - ~8 feet - PW in close; missed the putt 

Hole 16 - 6 iron from 180 to ~15 feet; missed the putt 

Hole 18 - 50 degree to ~12 feet; missed the putt

 

The feet very well may be off cause I'm going from memory, and I could be underestimating length. That said, that is 8 putts I feel like I at least had a chance of making, and I only made two, one of which was from two feet. Now, I would never expect to make more than a couple more, but it feels like I could improve a bit on these types of putts, drain one or two more a round and increase my birdies per round. I could be wrong and could be chasing a pipe dream, but I want to at least try to improve on putting in this distance range. 

 

You definitely need to start pacing off your putts, and even then, you need to err on the side of making the putt a bit longer than it actually is, rather than shorter. 

 

First, measure your stride. Take 10 normal paces and see how long it actually is by measuring.

 

Then try to calibrate your pace to one yard. I know for me, I have to take a larger step than normal for it to be a yard because even though I'm 6' I have a 29" inseam, so I have short legs.

 

And remember that a flagstick is usually right at 7' tall, so you can use that sometimes to help gauge.

 

So if I have a putt that is around 9 long paces for me, I will usually call that a 28' or 29' (instead of 27') putt just to add a bit of wiggle room in there.

[MelloYello]

2 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

This is fair. I may be using the term ~10 feet too liberally, so may need to start pacing off my putts to better understand how long they actually are. That said, look back to Sunday's round, I have the following putts on GIRs I would say are mid-range and makable from time to time:

 

Hole 1 - ~15 feet - approach with a 50; missed the putt 

Hole 2 - ~8 feet - chipped to 8 feet from 30 yards; made the putt 

Hole 8 - ~15 feet - short par 4, pitched to ~15 feet from ~40 yards; missed the putt 

Hole 10 - ~2 feet - almost chipped in for eagle; made the birdie putt

Hole 13 - ~10 feet - pitched to ~10 feet from ~70 yards; missed the putt 

Hole 14 - ~8 feet - PW in close; missed the putt 

Hole 16 - 6 iron from 180 to ~15 feet; missed the putt 

Hole 18 - 50 degree to ~12 feet; missed the putt

 

The feet very well may be off cause I'm going from memory, and I could be underestimating length. That said, that is 8 putts I feel like I at least had a chance of making, and I only made two, one of which was from two feet. Now, I would never expect to make more than a couple more, but it feels like I could improve a bit on these types of putts, drain one or two more a round and increase my birdies per round. I could be wrong and could be chasing a pipe dream, but I want to at least try to improve on putting in this distance range. 

 

 

You're absolutely right in those cases. It looks like you're getting a healthy number of wedges into greens. I do as well not surprisingly that's usually where my best looks at birdie come from. 

 

The one place I've challenged myself a bit is on Par-5s where I had become very accustomed to laying up and playing in the style of safe, 3-shot, "easy-par" golf. That's the one place I'd recommend not playing for a comfortable wedge but you probably know that all too well. A good short game is more likely to get up and down from 20- or 30-yds than from 80- or 100.  

[MelloYello]

2 hours ago, Obee said:

You definitely need to start pacing off your putts, and even then, you need to err on the side of making the putt a bit longer than it actually is, rather than shorter. 

 

First, measure your stride. Take 10 normal paces and see how long it actually is by measuring.

 

Then try to calibrate your pace to one yard. I know for me, I have to take a larger step than normal for it to be a yard because even though I'm 6' I have a 29" inseam, so I have short legs.

 

And remember that a flagstick is usually right at 7' tall, so you can use that sometimes to help gauge.

 

So if I have a putt that is around 9 long paces for me, I will usually call that a 28' or 29' (instead of 27') putt just to add a bit of wiggle room in there.

 

This is handy even if just as a reference--and I need to do it more often. I tend to over-estimate the length of a putt by as much as 30% if I go purely by eye alone.  

 

FWIW, I use casual steps. Mine equate to almost exactly 2-ft each. So if it's 14-steps, it's 28-ft. Easy enough. 

[Pepperturbo]

On 1/23/2022 at 5:54 PM, dvq9654 said:

played a quick 9 this afternoon and everything that was working on the range was NOT working on the course. Was very much stuck in a place where I couldn't feel what I was doing on the range but couldn't feel my "normal" swing.

A thought to consider, practice progress on the range doesn't normally transfer to the course if you have golf and scoring on the mind.  You'll use what you have historically known to score.

 

IMO you need to go to the course and practice what you practice on the range, and forget about trying to play your best golf and or score.  That may or may not mean your index takes a hit for the time being.  Good luck.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Pepperturbo

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 1/30/2022 at 4:05 PM, dvq9654 said:

Played again today. Shot 76. Very similar round to yesterday, but my bad shots were worse. Summary is below, with quick takeaways. 

 

Course Par: 72

Yards: 7023

Course Rating: 71.9

Slope: 119 

Score: 76

Fairways: 7/14

Greens: 11/18 

Putts: 32 

Birdies, Pars, etc.: 2 birdies, 11 pars, 4 bogeys, 1 double 

Up and Downs with 30 yards: 6/10 

Strokes Gained (Per Arccos): Overall (+0.3), Driving (+1.7), Approach (-1.7), Short (+1.2), Putting (-1.0)

 

Other:

Strokes Gained: How can I be plus when compared to a scratch while shooting 76. Something doesn't add up... 

 

 

So it looks like they get to 0.3 based on (1.7 - 1.7 + 1.2 - 1.0), which would be +0.2, and I assume that if those are rounded values the raw values added up would be somewhere between 0.250 and 0.349, so to speak, and rounds to 0.3.

 

As for how you can shoot +4 and be positive compared to a scratch, my guess is that it's the mix of shots, particularly your approach game. 

 

So the +1.7 long game is going to be based on driving distance and accuracy. But IMHO those strokes aren't in the "scoring range", so I'd throw them out of the calculation of you vs scratch. You're driving the ball better than scratch, but all that means is that your approaches should be EASIER than a typical scratch's approach. 

 

Then you're -1.7 in approach. Those approaches are based on approach distance. If you're +1.7 in driving, it means that you're giving yourself easier approaches than a scratch would get, but you're doing worse than what a scratch would be expected to do IF they were approaching from where your drive was. 

 

If you're driving 300, and a typical scratch is 270 (for example), that means that a typical scratch is hitting every approach from 30 yards farther than yours on average, AND STILL SCORING SCRATCH. Which means that on their scorecard, the gap in approach game between them and you is likely greater than 1.7 strokes.

 

I.e. if you were playing a scramble with a scratch golfer where you all play out the hole from your drive, and they were hitting from your drive, they'd be a plus, not a scratch. 

 

So this tells me (based on one round) that you need to work on iron play...

 

 

[dvq9654]

10 hours ago, Obee said:

You definitely need to start pacing off your putts, and even then, you need to err on the side of making the putt a bit longer than it actually is, rather than shorter. 

 

First, measure your stride. Take 10 normal paces and see how long it actually is by measuring.

 

Then try to calibrate your pace to one yard. I know for me, I have to take a larger step than normal for it to be a yard because even though I'm 6' I have a 29" inseam, so I have short legs.

 

And remember that a flagstick is usually right at 7' tall, so you can use that sometimes to help gauge.

 

So if I have a putt that is around 9 long paces for me, I will usually call that a 28' or 29' (instead of 27') putt just to add a bit of wiggle room in there.

 

Good point. I did this for a while, but fell out of habit, so will rekindle the effort. 

 

Will measure my strides tonight. 

[dvq9654]

7 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

A thought to consider, practice progress on the range doesn't normally transfer to the course if you have golf and scoring on the mind.  You'll use what you have historically known to score.

 

IMO you need to go to the course and practice what you practice on the range, and forget about trying to play your best golf and or score.  That may or may not mean your index takes a hit for the time being.  Good luck.

 

I generally take the approach of focusing on what I'm changing while at the range / practicing. When I hit the course, I just aim to score as well as I can with whatever swing I have that day, with a bias towards what I have been focused on (e.g., keep right hip high with driver). Over time, the work on the range shows up on the course, assuming I'm consistent  and smart at the range. I'm also still able to have some fun on the course. 

 

[MelloYello]

11 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

 

I generally take the approach of focusing on what I'm changing while at the range / practicing. When I hit the course, I just aim to score as well as I can with whatever swing I have that day, with a bias towards what I have been focused on (e.g., keep right hip high with driver). Over time, the work on the range shows up on the course, assuming I'm consistent  and smart at the range. I'm also still able to have some fun on the course. 

 

 

How often are you playing? Do you have a regular group? 

 

For the last couple years I've been playing a ton (2-4x per week) and a lot of that has to due with joining a club and finding regularly-scheduled groups and/or matches. 

 

My club has senior groupings and dog-fights through the week and plenty of open times in the evenings for people who just want to chill and/or practice. On weekends we have established groups all morning. Once you get approval you can essentially join any of them at anytime thus guaranteeing yourself some sort of a money games every Sat & Sun. It's been a blast. 

 

I used to play alone which is why I asked. I could never go back to that. That got downright depressing. I see some of these guys who go on quests to become scratch and they play all by themselves. It's not uncommon for that to end somewhat disappointingly, LOL. If you're playing a lot and are quite good I would figure you're a member somewhere? 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 2/1/2022 at 8:26 AM, Obee said:

You definitely need to start pacing off your putts, and even then, you need to err on the side of making the putt a bit longer than it actually is, rather than shorter. 

 

First, measure your stride. Take 10 normal paces and see how long it actually is by measuring.

 

Then try to calibrate your pace to one yard. I know for me, I have to take a larger step than normal for it to be a yard because even though I'm 6' I have a 29" inseam, so I have short legs.

 

And remember that a flagstick is usually right at 7' tall, so you can use that sometimes to help gauge.

 

So if I have a putt that is around 9 long paces for me, I will usually call that a 28' or 29' (instead of 27') putt just to add a bit of wiggle room in there.

 

15 hours ago, dvq9654 said:

 

Good point. I did this for a while, but fell out of habit, so will rekindle the effort. 

 

Will measure my strides tonight. 

 

Obee, how critical do you think it is to measure your stride and to try to calibrate your stride to exactly a yard (or some other known distance)?

 

I pace off all my putts. I assume my natural stride is about a yard (I'm 6'5" with long legs), so I multiply the number of strides by 3 to get the distance in feet. 

 

Is that truly accurate in feet? Maybe, maybe not... In fact, probably not. But does it matter?

 

If I calibrate my putting stroke more based on strides than feet, and distance control is repeatable, does it matter if I think a 30 foot putt is actually 28 or 32 feet, as long as I stride the same natural length each time and know how hard to hit a putt based on the strides? If I always think a 30 foot putt, with easy repeatability, is 32 feet, I'm going to putt it the same either way. 

 

Does that make sense? Or am I way off... I know you're the putting expert, so maybe there's something I'm missing here. 

[D0ch0l1d4y]

49 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

Obee, how critical do you think it is to measure your stride and to try to calibrate your stride to exactly a yard (or some other known distance)?

 

I pace off all my putts. I assume my natural stride is about a yard (I'm 6'5" with long legs), so I multiply the number of strides by 3 to get the distance in feet. 

 

Is that truly accurate in feet? Maybe, maybe not... In fact, probably not. But does it matter?

 

If I calibrate my putting stroke more based on strides than feet, and distance control is repeatable, does it matter if I think a 30 foot putt is actually 28 or 32 feet, as long as I stride the same natural length each time and know how hard to hit a putt based on the strides? If I always think a 30 foot putt, with easy repeatability, is 32 feet, I'm going to putt it the same either way. 

 

Does that make sense? Or am I way off... I know you're the putting expert, so maybe there's something I'm missing here. 

I'd say it's dependent on if/how your track stats. If you are keeping SG stats, you need to know the length in feet. Or if you want to directly compare your putting to, say, PGA tour stats. 

 

If you only care that you need to improve putting 2 strides and in or your lag putting from 20 strides needs work...that works just as well (if not better) - measurements are all relative anyway.

[dvq9654]

12 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

How often are you playing? Do you have a regular group? 

 

For the last couple years I've been playing a ton (2-4x per week) and a lot of that has to due with joining a club and finding regularly-scheduled groups and/or matches. 

 

My club has senior groupings and dog-fights through the week and plenty of open times in the evenings for people who just want to chill and/or practice. On weekends we have established groups all morning. Once you get approval you can essentially join any of them at anytime thus guaranteeing yourself some sort of a money games every Sat & Sun. It's been a blast. 

 

I used to play alone which is why I asked. I could never go back to that. That got downright depressing. I see some of these guys who go on quests to become scratch and they play all by themselves. It's not uncommon for that to end somewhat disappointingly, LOL. If you're playing a lot and are quite good I would figure you're a member somewhere? 

 

I usually make it out once or twice a week. I have a fairly full schedule, so can't play during the week, but can frequently find time early AM to practice. 

 

In terms of playing, I generally play alone. I often find myself fitting in rounds whenever works, which makes it tough to keep a regular group. I don't mind playing alone, but also would enjoy a group to play with. 

 

I would love to join a club, but the clubs near me have long waitlists and 100k+ initiation fees. There are some cheaper options a little further away, but if I join something the convenience will be one of the largest reasons, so it's hard to get excited about the less convenient options.