Is the Plane Truth Jim Hardy One Plane Swing the worst Methodolgy of all time?

[Notashank]

Unless you want to hit balls all day it can work. Or you can swing like Bruce litzkie and never hit balls. 

[bluedot]

I think that in general, flattening a swing without an instructor watching is just really, really tough to do, maybe one of the toughest things in golf to attempt on your own. 

 

I wrote this earlier, but I think a single plane swing requires fast hips and the ability and mobility to really turn hard thru the ball.  Otherwise, it's an arm swing that is, like ALL arm swings, prone to two way misses if the timing isn't perfect; high blocks to the right, and low hooks to the left become the order of the day.  In short, it ain't for everybody, but Hardy says that repeatedly.  I tried it out of the book, figuring that as a former college tennis player with a shortish flatish swing anyway, it would be perfect for me; it wasn't because I just couldn't turn thru fast enough.  It finally dawned on me that that was deficiency of mine as a tennis player, too.

 

I have enjoyed watching Kuchar over the years, and he was a money machine on Tour; he rarely missed cuts, and led the Tour in both money and scoring in 2010.  All of this AFTER he completely fell off the map and then rebuilt his swing using the Hardy stuff.  I just looked him up; he's 12th all-time in earnings, with over $53 million, and he just finished 7th at the Sony.  Not too shabby, plus he just seems like a great guy.

[flyingwedges2]

Hardy's communication and explanation style is, at best, very difficult to understand

[BottleCap]

1 hour ago, flyingwedges2 said:

Hardy's communication and explanation style is, at best, very difficult to understand

I agree with you on this.

 

In his 3 part video series and the first supplement video, IMO, he should be bent over whenever he is explaining anything in regards to the one plane swing. Instead he's standing up and looking at a camera. I think he would be more effective showing all his one plane motions from the bent over position.

[petrus33]

i am looking for educational tools to learn the plane truth 

thanks for your help 

Oivier from France 

[Chunkitgood]

I think David Leadbetter’s book on the swing is great.  As is his Swing Setter thing.

[jwstj]

Roughly 40 years ago, my late Father had a nasty swing flaw of completely flipping his hands when chipping. I tried desperately to solve this. I even tied his hands together with a rope. He broke the rope. Some concepts in life just cannot (or will not) be realized in life. Light bulbs don't come on for everybody. I agree with the afore mentioned "...just move on!" It's not for you. Personally, I've played my best using Hardy's s concepts. 

[harveythomas]

I got the first two plane truth books years ago.  I tried self teaching using the drills and experimenting with both one and two plane styles.  Complete disaster.  
 

I remember playing with a Euro pro tour guy around that time who said the books messed him up so he ended up becoming a caddy at Queenwood in the end.  
 

Last year I took lessons with a level 2 plane truth instructor.  Initially I was as delighted and he got me trying to load my right wrist properly which added a lot of distance and straightness.  Alongside that he got me throwing away all my angles from the top which I thought would be flipping but actually I had more power and very solid impacts.  He also got my up and down percentage around the greens consistently over 50 percent for the first time in my life as I learned how to use the bounce and release my wedges properly.  My green side game became better than most 0-4 handicappers I know.  
 

Then in later lessons he got me trying to get my right elbow up and behind me on the backswing and feeling the club facing down at the top. This turned out to be a death move even though I hit it well in the lessons.  My takeaway started looking awful, I stopped rotating through the shot and my swing became all hands and arms with consistent poor contact as my club bottomed out behind the ball with a scooping action.  
 

I persisted for a while and just got worse.  Then I had a session with a plane truth level 1 guy as an alternative.  He seemed pretty good but he gets so busy and is 3 hours drive away so that wasn’t workable.  He wanted me to start using a tour rotation stick to improve my dynamic loft at impact.  Probably correctly.  

 

So I moved to trying a plane truth level 3 guy closer to home.  He tried to get me to get a lot of left arm depth while lifting my right arm up and away from my right side like a birds wing.  This was ok in the lesson but left me with a sore back and hitting it terribly on the course.  It was literally like I was doing the funky chicken dance with my right arm.  

Through all this I studied a few more Jim Hardy books covering his matrix ideas and release.  I tried doing his drills but just got worse.  
 

Then I saw a top bio mechanics guy who could not understand some of these teachings and I am now starting to hit the ball a lot better again.  I’m stopping the extreme flying right elbow stuff which has helped tremendously as well as keeping the club much more in front of me as recommended by for example the AMG guys.

 

I think the Jim Hardy ideas are completely superseded now that we have force plates, hack motions, Gears, better high speed cameras etc.  Although I agree studying still shots of pros can be very misleading in guiding the feels and proper cause and effect in the golf swing.  
 

All in all I think the best thing to do with Jim Hardys books is to put them in the wood burner on a cold winters night.  They can really mess you up.  
 

 

[HitSomeMissSome]

When this came out, back in the day, I saw it as a fix for the good player (tour player, too) who dumped the club mass under plane and hit blocks and hooks. Almost every good player goes through this issue from time to time. Alas, JH really helped the elite player battle off the hook. The problem is, 98% of golfers don’t have that issue. The lawnmower right arm is the worst bit of coaching advice I have ever seen. Getting the arms pinned and retracted for a high handicap player is just adding to the purgatory of sucking at golf forever. 
 

Also the bs of “one plane vs two plane,” hated that stuff, too. He clearly preferred the lead arm swinging onto the shoulder plane w a steeper side bend. That said, most players can’t side bend that effectively and arm elevation helps their dynamics. 

[JD3]

Hardy is an example of a good communicator with bad information. Had me fooled for a while. Same can be said for other players much more accomplished than I'll ever be. But at some point the truth comes out, and thats why interest in the 1P/2P stuff has fallen off a cliff.

[bladehunter]

Did this Hardy guy steal the OPs girlfriend ( or mother ) or what ?   I’ve not come across that much hate in quite a while.  And from such a dead old thread.   Wow

[harveythomas]

2 hours ago, bladehunter said:

  I’ve not come across that much hate in quite a while. 

I’m afraid we get pretty vitriolic about the plane truth in our household too.  When someone wrecks your swing after you pay them a lot of money and put in many hours of practice to the level where you no longer enjoy hitting awful shots on the course it can get to you.  

[tatertot]

"The secret's in the dirt."  

                            Hogan

[HitSomeMissSome]

On 7/13/2023 at 7:56 PM, tatertot said:

"The secret's in the dirt."  

                            Hogan

Most folks aren’t self aware enough to simply dig it out of the dirt. Hogan had the benefit of the caddie yard and Byron Nelson as a reference. Folks need decent models, even if they don’t have an instructor. 
 

Imagine if a chop played a weekly game w scratch golfers. That player would pick up some meaningful mannerisms and patterns by osmosis. Likely start catch on to the rhythm of good golf. That same player in a foursome of chops? Not so much. Who’s going to dig it out of the dirt more effectively?

[Nels55]

1 hour ago, HitSomeMissSome said:

Most folks aren’t self aware enough to simply dig it out of the dirt. Hogan had the benefit of the caddie yard and Byron Nelson as a reference. Folks need decent models, even if they don’t have an instructor. 
 

Imagine if a chop played a weekly game w scratch golfers. That player would pick up some meaningful mannerisms and patterns by osmosis. Likely start catch on to the rhythm of good golf. That same player in a foursome of chops? Not so much. Who’s going to dig it out of the dirt more effectively?

LOL I believe that you would get a long cold stare from Hogan if you proposed that Byron Nelson was a swing reference.  He and Byron Nelson where the same age and rivals. 

 

Hogan learned a bit from his brother Royal and also from the pro at Glenn Garden named Ted Longworth and possibly some from his assistant Jack Grout.  His biggest influence was most likely a top local player named Ed Stewart whom he caddied for and who's swing he copied. 

[HitSomeMissSome]

On 7/16/2023 at 3:23 PM, Nels55 said:

LOL I believe that you would get a long cold stare from Hogan if you proposed that Byron Nelson was a swing reference.  He and Byron Nelson where the same age and rivals. 

 

Hogan learned a bit from his brother Royal and also from the pro at Glenn Garden named Ted Longworth and possibly some from his assistant Jack Grout.  His biggest influence was most likely a top local player named Ed Stewart whom he caddied for and who's swing he copied. 

Long stares are an appetizer. Your history of Hogan’s experience is noteworthy and supports my position. He “dug it out of the dirt,” surrounded by fine playing examples. If he did the same around Moe, Larry and Curly of the Three Stooges, we wouldn’t know who he was. A developing player’s environment matters a lot. 

[harveythomas]

I wonder if anyone on here studied Hardys later book on the matrix?  The idea is that you diagnose your fault based on your ball flight and then apply one or two changes to your set up or swing to correct it.  It seems like a good idea until you read the book.  

 

I found it completely unusable when I was in my golf slump.  It made me even worse and just got me more lost.  
 

I still have large legacy issues that I’m trying to fix from my plane truth experiences using plane truth instructors between December 2021 and April 2023.   I drilled what they taught me so hard that undoing the damage has been easier said than done.  My son is only just starting to fix his game now having abandoned them the same time but he’s still no better than a plus 2 when he was a plus 4 when he started with them.  At his worse in the slump he was playing more like a 7 handicap.  

 

I would be very interested to read from anyone who has worked with plane truth instructors and improved and stayed improved down at low or plus handicap territory.  At the moment I feel like this was a whole school of thought that was nonsense when you analyse what top golfers generally do in reality rather than the odd exceptions at the extremes like Kuchar.  For single figure handicap golfers looking to take the next step up I feel like this will generally prove to be poisonous although maybe it works for some.  
 

 

[golferdude54]

The main problem with the OPS model is that with the longer clubs such as driver and FW’s and long irons, the right forearm at the top of the backswing DTL gets into an externally rotated position (pointing 11 o’clock instead of 1 o’clock).
 

That gets a player “stuck” almost every time and Hogan’s right forearm at the top was pointing vertically with driver.
 

Matt Kuchar, although he had a great season in 2010, actually changed his right forearm position at the top and he had better ball striking stats and won more in 2012-2013. You can see a drastic difference between his 2010 swing and 2013 swing.

[harveythomas]

My son is now coming out of his plane truth fog having dropped these guys in April and 6 months work with some Surrey based bio mechanics focused guys who teach tour pros who still play well (I know Kuchar somehow still makes the Jim Hardy stuff work but no idea how) and have placed well on tour this year.  
 

He now keeps the club very much in front of him, less bent over at address, has a much flatter shoulder plane and is now toe pointing up at the end of the takeaway rather than strongly hooded.  He’s now hitting the ball straighter than ever and it’s all 280 yard plus stuff off the tee even when he’s sore after a long Uni tennis match yesterday.  Looks more Tyrell Hatton like swing now.  
 

We played Huntercombe in Oxfordshire today off the back tees - only 6,300 yards par 70 but he was putting in regulation on every hole.   Nothing to go wrong.  I’m going to go down the same road myself now.  
 

Really can’t stress enough about the hell most people will enter if they go down the plane truth road.  
 

 

[Chunkitgood]

If you don’t like the one plane swing, Hardy tells you how to do the two plane swing.

 

Seriously, Hardy himself says essentially that the one plane swing requires more athleticism.  Perhaps the people who can’t do it missed that part and tried it anyway.

 

Sure Hardy is a golf teacher and suffers from the common problem golf teachers have: inability to discriminate between cause and effect.  He is superior to most in that he admits there is not just one right way to set up and not just one right way to use your hands and arms.

[harveythomas]

Interesting take.  I just used his plane truth certified instructors and tried to do what they told me.  Wasn’t bothered if it was one plane or two plane.   
 

Completely messed me up.  
 

I understand his idea of match ups in a swing has some merit but can honestly say his teaching materials and certified instructors will send most golfers to hell in a hand basket whether it’s his one plane, two plane, LOP, RIT or matrix teachings.

 

My son dropped it in April, has taken a modern biomechanics approach and sure enough by last week when I played with him he was putting 18 out of 18 greens in regulation on a tight 6,300 yard par 70 without making it look hard.  But it took him 6 months to undo all that Jim Hardy school damage and that was a lot of changes to swing patterns required.  What’s become clear to us is that it (Jim Hardy teachings) was largely a false invention with lots of bad teachings and drills. 
 

Kuchar is the only top player I’ve seen make any of this work for any prolonged period and even then he’s not exactly the one plane textbook as described in Hardys books with his out of line set ups and hitting a big pull off his alignment all the time.  Not saying it’s impossible but quite clear there is more bad than good in his certified instructors in my experience (and I tried 3 of them) having gone quite deep into it. 

[tomba51]

Jim Hardy was here at my club a couple of years ago for a 2 day school. The first thing that he did was evaluate all of us to determine whether we were one plane or two plane. He said that a one plane swinger has to be taught differently than a two plane swinger. He also said that in all his years of teaching, there was only ONE player that he changed from a two plane swinger to a one plane swinger. That was Peter Jacobson and Hardy said that it took Jacobson a full year to make the change. By the way, the Hardy school did not help me at all, but that's another story.

[JRLane]

Shot my age this summer using the Hardy method.  I have the score card framed to prove it.  At 75, I am still a really good athlete that can still make a hard turn thru the ball.  That is key to being successful with his methodology.  Jim is a good friend of mine and works with me personally.  His wife is a top senior am. in the country and uses his method exclusively. His one plane swing is not for everyone, and he will be the first to admit it.  That is why he gives you 2 choices in his books and videos.  He teaches both the one or 2 plane swing.  But leans toward the one plane swing because if you truly understand it, you can be more consistent.  What Jim always tells me is that the one plane swing is a speed swing and the 2 plane swing is a power swing (leverage swing).  As we age, we lose our power, thus our distance.  You can regain some of that distance loss with the one plane swing because you can speed up the club head thru the ball, which I have done. Anyway, that is my experience with Jim Hardy.

[Divot License]

On 2/21/2022 at 4:20 PM, Nels55 said:

I have a list of approximately 48 methods that I have looked at videos and or read books on and none of them helped me very much if at all.

 

I'd like to see the list, feel I may have a few I've not checked out yet 😄

[Nels55]

12 hours ago, Divot License said:

 

I'd like to see the list, feel I may have a few I've not checked out yet 😄

LOL here you go:

 

There are a lot that I got from magazines etc. that I have forgotten about.

[harveythomas]

Was chatting with my son yesterday.   The swing changes he’s been making since last April after he dropped plane truth coaching have resulted in a huge change for the better.  He’s now had about 10 lessons from his biomechanics focused team including a bit of time on his chipping and putting.  
 

The results are getting better and better and he’s now placed pretty well in a recent amateur event with a lot of good amateur golfers.  There are very marked changes in his address, more upright, his pivot (no attempt at a steep shoulder plane but turning his belly button feeling to load) and his takeaway which is more toe up than hooded.  He keeps his arms in front of his body on the backswing getting depth with shoulder turn for the most part and in the downswing he focuses on turning his left shoulder down and to the left as an initial move while his arms drop into delivery.  
 

He still rates the old level 1 plane truth coach he used while on his old University team as do I but completely rejects the Jim Hardy drills and thinking in favour of a modern biomechanically correct (according to biomechanics experts anyway) swing.  I’m guessing some of the plane truth guys just know how to teach well and I suspect Jim himself does too (see poster above results which attest to that).  
 

We found the level 2 plane truth guy we used great at first but then wrecked us for a long time as he tried to teach us more especially me.  The level 3 guy I used was just a disaster giving me a sore back and getting me even more lost.  
 

It’s still a mystery to me how the Hardy 1 plane swing teachings and drills reconcile to modern biomechanics thinking in many areas.   

 

As for me I’ve now had 6 sessions with the new biomechanics team my son uses.  Progress was slow recently partly due to a long period of poor body motion after a major spinal surgery. But it’s slowly coming along again now as I get my body looser again.  Tidy one over par on my back 9 after my latest lesson at the weekend.  I can even hit good 9-3 shots using an impact ball again which I never could’ve done in the end of my plane truth coaching era.  I do lots of split hands into delivery position drills now, the takeaway I try get hands over my right foot and then turn with my arm line down about the 4 o’clock line (ie a bit on the inside) to the top.  
 

I have also started using my old explanar again to help start strengthening up my core in powering the rotation which seems to be helping.  
 

Although I accept that Hardy personally has taught many good golfers and has got them playing well I’m afraid I’m more adamant than ever that his path is not for me and that most will eventually get lost with most of his certified teachers.  
 

For any golfer taking up the game asking me about his plane truth books and follow ups I’d say to put them in the bin without even opening the front page in case they mess you up for a very long time.  I would steer them down a modern biomechanics taught approach instead.  
 

For me it’s still a terrible method although interested to see more about people who have played well using his coaches over the long term. 
 

 

[Ayersjj]

On 2/21/2022 at 1:58 AM, TheNatural72 said:

Look at all this BS.  And people still have NO CLUE>> 

Jimmy Ballard had one book .. yet JH...

 

Please go to the Facrbook Plane Truth Forums and take a look at the People posting their swings..  Terrible all of them.  Some of them have been

trying this chit for 15+ years and still suck.

U r right Jimmy Ballard has one book. Seems like ur falling out is w the one plane swing of Hardys 2 part type swings. Im like u the details of one plane swing makes no sense to me either so I never switched from Ballard aft 30 years. But, alot of Hardys 2 plane info makes sense. Makes me wonder if you should have been working on 2 planes within Hardys fundamentals instead of 1 plane. They are different swings and some fit better with his arms in front like Watson. Anyway, glad u posted this bc it brings up ideas of applying certain fundamentals to different swings. Id be careful of trashing Hardys 1 plane just bc it didnt work for u tho. Good luck !

Edited April 6 by Ayersjj

[FlyingDivot4]

I was a 20 handicap.  Self taught myself Hardy's OPS starting in 2016.  It made alot of sense to me, and still does.   Dropped to an 8 now and am fairly happy with the OPS.  I am 58 nowand don't have the time to learn another methodology.   The first book and dvd's are fine ...the  other books are too complex.  Different strokes for different folks I guess.    There are much worse books out there.  Cheers!

[nikos74]

Most people agree that flat swings are more consistent than upright swings.  The reason is you don't have to shallow the club in the transition, which usually leads to a draw for some reason.  Instead you either hit it straight or fade it.

 

People who criticize it site mediocre distance and hard to learn initially.  The first depends on rotation and the second on synchronization.  You don't have follow JH word for word to learn it, you just need a basic understanding of the principals involved.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

Most people agree that flat swings are more consistent than upright swings.  The reason is you don't have to shallow the club in the transition, which usually leads to a draw for some reason.  Instead you either hit it straight or fade it.

 

People who criticize it site mediocre distance and hard to learn initially.  The first depends on rotation and the second on synchronization.  You don't have follow JH word for word to learn it, you just need a basic understanding of the principals involved.

If the Hardy teaching stuff helped you, that's great, keep doing it. But.......not one instructor or other equally knowledgeable person on this site will agree that a flat swing is categorically more consistent than an upright one.