What are basic swing fundamentals for young juniors?

[leezer99]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Grip, stance, and posture are not fundamentals of golf because they are open to interpretation and can be done in many ways.  A fundamental is the same for everyone, everyday, forever. Impact is fundamental...impact is boss and the faster that a golfer understands that the shot they intend to hit is what sets them up to the ball, the better.  We are all unique athletes and you are free to swing your swing and so long as you can reliably repeat your swing motion, you can learn to reliably aim it I assure you, but we are all subject to the same rules at impact.  The faster that a golfer truly understands d plane and the ball flight laws the steeper their learning curve will be because they will know what they are trying to accomplish prior to even hitting a given shot.  They will also be able to quickly interpret ball flight and adjust their location in relation to the ball from shot to shot to maintain leverage, which is the true essence of golf and makes consistency possible.  It is only required that you have a grip, a stance, and posture, and not a specific one, therefore these are not fundamentals.  Impact is not negotiable and that is where the focus should always remain, then to observing the resulting ball flight created, as this should be taught on day one, even to a rank beginner, regardless of their age. The faster "why did I hit that shot like that" is eliminated from a golfers vocabulary and changed to "I know exactly why that happened" the better.  

You're in a junior golf forum there hoss.  Nobody is teaching a kid about d-plane or ball flight laws.  I'd also like to refer you to what John Rahm said in an interview after winning last weekend.

 

"Minimal technical thoughts... just visualizing ball flight every shot... getting back to my true self"

(Sorry for the crappy video)

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by leezer99

[heavy_hitter]

10 hours ago, kekoa said:

Ok, how do you know they are working on posture?   asking for a friend.

How do you know their not?  

[Righty to Lefty]

23 hours ago, leezer99 said:

You're in a junior golf forum there hoss.  Nobody is teaching a kid about d-plane or ball flight laws.  I'd also like to refer you to what John Rahm said in an interview after winning last weekend.

 

"Minimal technical thoughts... just visualizing ball flight every shot... getting back to my true self"

(Sorry for the crappy video)

 

 

 

Yeah that sounds good coming from a pro that has hit millions of golf balls...but in reality it is b.s. advice for anyone at a lesser level.  I tell you what...I'm gonna assume that you are a right handed golfer, so pick up a lefty club and go play then tell me how far minimal thoughts, and visual thoughts, and getting back to your true self gets you.  The reason that I am so adamant about this is because I lived it.  My handle is "Righty to Lefty" because I switched from right handed to left handed completely from scratch.  I was the equivalent of a rank beginner, no different from a child, and had no clue about the ball flight laws or the d plane when I played right handed and initially it felt like a foreign language, but with repeated exposure I pieced it all together and instead of it taking me six years to break 90 right handed it took me 6 months to do it lefty.  My right handed swing feels completely different than my left handed one and thus none of feels or instincts translated and I think you also discount how much of a sponge children are for information.  I watched my Son become fluent in a foreign language before he was even 3 years old.  

 

The fact is John Rahm is telling you how he plays golf, and he can do that because he has performed so many reps that he can play from and athletic standpoint and he likely will never have to understand the math of the game unless he gets injured and his "feels" change just like Tiger did. The engineers that designed the Ping swing robot aren't even on the same planet as Rahm is as far as their ability to play golf, yet they design a machine that no pro golfer that will ever exist could beat.  That is because whereas Rahm tells you how he plays golf, those engineers know mathematically how golf is played.  The d plane and the ball flight laws are that math and they are way simpler to learn than a foreign language is I assure you. The fastest way to become a competent golfer is to have a blend of the athletic and mathematic, and this is possible in golf because the ball doesn't move so it isn't reactionary like baseball or tennis etc.  An athlete equipped with the mathematics of the game can quickly interpret ball flight and adjust their grip, stance, and posture to produce the desired result.  They can also use the math to create every possible shot imaginable as the math to hit a given shot is definite and not up for interpretation.  Your athletic ability can then take over and you can then play the game from the perspective that Rahm speaks of but knowing the math greatly steepens the learning curve and is the foundation that all shots hit are based.  Teaching a kid the d plane and ball flight laws in a fun way is dead simple easy and should be mandatory day one information for all golfers.  

Edited May 5, 2022 by Righty to Lefty

[leezer99]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah that sounds good coming from a pro that has hit millions of golf balls...but in reality it is b.s. advice for anyone at a lesser level.  I tell you what...I'm gonna assume that you are a right handed golfer, so pick up a lefty club and go play then tell me how far minimal thoughts, and visual thoughts, and getting back to your true self gets you.  The reason that I am so adamant about this is because I lived it.  My handle is "Righty to Lefty" because I switched from right handed to left handed completely from scratch.  I was the equivalent of a rank beginner, no different from a child, and had no clue about the ball flight laws or the d plane when I played right handed and initially it felt like a foreign language, but with repeated exposure I pieced it all together and instead of it taking me six years to break 90 right handed it took me 6 months to do it lefty.  My right handed swing feels completely different than my left handed one and thus none of feels or instincts translated and I think you also discount how much of a sponge children are for information.  I watched my Son become fluent in a foreign language before he was even 3 years old.  

 

The fact is John Rahm is telling you how he plays golf, and he can do that because he has performed so many reps that he can play from and athletic standpoint and he likely will never have to understand the math of the game unless he gets injured and his "feels" change just like Tiger did. The engineers that designed the Ping swing robot aren't even on the same planet as Rahm is as far as their ability to play golf, yet they design a machine that no pro golfer that will ever exist could beat.  That is because whereas Rahm tells you how he plays golf, those engineers know mathematically how golf is played.  The d plane and the ball flight laws are that math and they are way simpler to learn than a foreign language is I assure you. The fastest way to become a competent golfer is to have a blend of the athletic and mathematic, and this is possible in golf because the ball doesn't move so it isn't reactionary like baseball or tennis etc.  An athlete equipped with the mathematics of the game can quickly interpret ball flight and adjust their grip, stance, and posture to produce the desired result.  They can also use the math to create every possible shot imaginable as the math to hit a given shot is definite and not up for interpretation.  Your athletic ability can then take over and you can then play the game from the perspective that Rahm speaks of but knowing the math greatly steepens the learning curve and is the foundation that all shots hit are based.  Teaching a kid the d plane and ball flight laws in a fun way is dead simple easy and should be mandatory day one information for all golfers.  

 

The Math and Physics of a golf swing are not a fundamental that needs to be taught to play great golf.  Nobody taught Mike Trout the optimal swing plane to hit dingers and nobody taught Simone Biles the physics of flipping her tiny frame around... you learn it on your own as you go. 

[heavy_hitter]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah that sounds good coming from a pro that has hit millions of golf balls...but in reality it is b.s. advice for anyone at a lesser level.  I tell you what...I'm gonna assume that you are a right handed golfer, so pick up a lefty club and go play then tell me how far minimal thoughts, and visual thoughts, and getting back to your true self gets you.  The reason that I am so adamant about this is because I lived it.  My handle is "Righty to Lefty" because I switched from right handed to left handed completely from scratch.  I was the equivalent of a rank beginner, no different from a child, and had no clue about the ball flight laws or the d plane when I played right handed and initially it felt like a foreign language, but with repeated exposure I pieced it all together and instead of it taking me six years to break 90 right handed it took me 6 months to do it lefty.  My right handed swing feels completely different than my left handed one and thus none of feels or instincts translated and I think you also discount how much of a sponge children are for information.  I watched my Son become fluent in a foreign language before he was even 3 years old.  

 

The fact is John Rahm is telling you how he plays golf, and he can do that because he has performed so many reps that he can play from and athletic standpoint and he likely will never have to understand the math of the game unless he gets injured and his "feels" change just like Tiger did. The engineers that designed the Ping swing robot aren't even on the same planet as Rahm is as far as their ability to play golf, yet they design a machine that no pro golfer that will ever exist could beat.  That is because whereas Rahm tells you how he plays golf, those engineers know mathematically how golf is played.  The d plane and the ball flight laws are that math and they are way simpler to learn than a foreign language is I assure you. The fastest way to become a competent golfer is to have a blend of the athletic and mathematic, and this is possible in golf because the ball doesn't move so it isn't reactionary like baseball or tennis etc.  An athlete equipped with the mathematics of the game can quickly interpret ball flight and adjust their grip, stance, and posture to produce the desired result.  They can also use the math to create every possible shot imaginable as the math to hit a given shot is definite and not up for interpretation.  Your athletic ability can then take over and you can then play the game from the perspective that Rahm speaks of but knowing the math greatly steepens the learning curve and is the foundation that all shots hit are based.  Teaching a kid the d plane and ball flight laws in a fun way is dead simple easy and should be mandatory day one information for all golfers.  

 

Yeah... I would move right past you as an instructor.

[kcap]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah that sounds good coming from a pro that has hit millions of golf balls...but in reality it is b.s. advice for anyone at a lesser level.  I tell you what...I'm gonna assume that you are a right handed golfer, so pick up a lefty club and go play then tell me how far minimal thoughts, and visual thoughts, and getting back to your true self gets you.  The reason that I am so adamant about this is because I lived it.  My handle is "Righty to Lefty" because I switched from right handed to left handed completely from scratch.  I was the equivalent of a rank beginner, no different from a child, and had no clue about the ball flight laws or the d plane when I played right handed and initially it felt like a foreign language, but with repeated exposure I pieced it all together and instead of it taking me six years to break 90 right handed it took me 6 months to do it lefty.  My right handed swing feels completely different than my left handed one and thus none of feels or instincts translated and I think you also discount how much of a sponge children are for information.  I watched my Son become fluent in a foreign language before he was even 3 years old.  

 

The fact is John Rahm is telling you how he plays golf, and he can do that because he has performed so many reps that he can play from and athletic standpoint and he likely will never have to understand the math of the game unless he gets injured and his "feels" change just like Tiger did. The engineers that designed the Ping swing robot aren't even on the same planet as Rahm is as far as their ability to play golf, yet they design a machine that no pro golfer that will ever exist could beat.  That is because whereas Rahm tells you how he plays golf, those engineers know mathematically how golf is played.  The d plane and the ball flight laws are that math and they are way simpler to learn than a foreign language is I assure you. The fastest way to become a competent golfer is to have a blend of the athletic and mathematic, and this is possible in golf because the ball doesn't move so it isn't reactionary like baseball or tennis etc.  An athlete equipped with the mathematics of the game can quickly interpret ball flight and adjust their grip, stance, and posture to produce the desired result.  They can also use the math to create every possible shot imaginable as the math to hit a given shot is definite and not up for interpretation.  Your athletic ability can then take over and you can then play the game from the perspective that Rahm speaks of but knowing the math greatly steepens the learning curve and is the foundation that all shots hit are based.  Teaching a kid the d plane and ball flight laws in a fun way is dead simple easy and should be mandatory day one information for all golfers.  

I do not get what you are trying to emphasize.  If I had started talking to my 3 yr old about D plane and ball flight, he would be playing another sport or learning foreign languages, which in retrospect might have been a better outcome.  The initial fundamental was all about hit the ball and see it to go up in the air - then it was how do you get the ball in the air, then how do you make the ball go far etc..

We are talking about junior golfers on this forum that are quite proficient at the game, not weekend golfers trying to break 90.  They do hit millions of golf balls and most of them started playing at a really, really young age. At some age they will all understand the math/physics  behind  draw, fade, slide, pull, hook but at least from my sample size of 1 - it still all comes down to feels, visualization and skill.  If he wants to hit a low cut, or a high draw - he just see's it, feels it and hits it.  Sure, if it does not come off and that is because of his skill, his reaction is something like ...i left the face open and it was a straight push and that is the interaction of physics and his understanding of what caused the ball flight. 

Also, everyone hits shots in different ways, my son does not like to adjust, grip, posture, stance to hit different shots. He prefers to hit them through feel.

 

 

[Golfingdawg19]

Usually you coaches will tell you grip/posture/stance (set up) is crucial. From there they usually work on turning behind the ball and through the ball properly. I would say those are the most critical areas for juniors to work on.

[leezer99]

For those of you unfamiliar with d-plane that are considering watching some YT videos on it, please consider having the suicide prevention hotline pre dialed on your phone because by the end of it you may want to consider unliving yourself.  It is soooo boring.

[Buzzzy]

Honestly I wouldn’t try messing with it too much. BUT, here are the most important things in my opinion would be:

 

1. Finding a comfortable tempo and sticking with it

 

2. reducing sway (think Adam Scott) 

 

3. Making sure posture is not too squat or too upright. That can lead to swing being too upright or flat. Also, it can help maximize rotation without grinding bones. 
 

4. DON’T CHANGE ANYTHING IF IT MAKE THEM FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE

- if you change things up to often or too much, they’ll lose confidence and get frustrated. 

[djmohab2]

On 5/5/2022 at 3:43 AM, Righty to Lefty said:

Teaching a kid the d plane and ball flight laws in a fun way is dead simple easy and should be mandatory day one information for all golfers.  

As someone that grew up very mathematically oriented and found out "feel isn't real" with many of my swing thoughts, I actually agree with this sentiment, although most won't.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 5/5/2022 at 3:15 PM, leezer99 said:

 

The Math and Physics of a golf swing are not a fundamental that needs to be taught to play great golf.  Nobody taught Mike Trout the optimal swing plane to hit dingers and nobody taught Simone Biles the physics of flipping her tiny frame around... you learn it on your own as you go. 

Sure they are...if you know them then you will never ever ask why a given shot happened because you will know.  As a former major league prospect, baseball is completely different because it is reactionary and you are under a time crunch to make a decision whereas a golf ball is waiting for you to strike it. Not an apples to apples comparison in any way. Gymnastics is a poor example also.  

 

On 5/5/2022 at 5:10 PM, leezer99 said:

For those of you unfamiliar with d-plane that are considering watching some YT videos on it, please consider having the suicide prevention hotline pre dialed on your phone because by the end of it you may want to consider unliving yourself.  It is soooo boring.

They are dead simple easy in actuality and if you think that, grip, stance, and posture are the reason that people play good golf you are sadly mistaken.  It doesn't matter how good of a swing you have if you can't reliably and repeatedly get into the right orientation in relation to the ball you will never play good golf...period. There is no compromise when it comes to impact and knowing and understanding it as early as possible will greatly steepen every golfer's learning curve.  

 

 

On 5/5/2022 at 4:16 PM, heavy_hitter said:

 

Yeah... I would move right past you as an instructor.

I play to a 5 handicap right and left handed and have never had a golf lesson.  It took me 6 years to break 90 right handed and 6 months to do it lefty and the main difference was I knew of the ball flight laws and d plane as I switched to lefty.  How did I improve so fast...it damn sure wasn't because of grip, stance, and posture. It was because I knew what I was searching for before I even hit the shot.  

 

On 5/9/2022 at 2:36 AM, Buzzzy said:

4. DON’T CHANGE ANYTHING IF IT MAKE THEM FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE

- if you change things up to often or too much, they’ll lose confidence and get frustrated. 

I disagree with this statement. If a golfer is "comfortable" and yet not in the correct position in relation to the ball they will not hit functional golf shots which will lead to orders of magnitude more frustration. I remember watchin my Son go through this very process where I watched him set to the ball and top 20 balls in a row. At first I just observed because I wanted to see if he would make and adjustment in his orientation to the ball but no, he continued to set up to where he was "comfortable," then comfortably top the ball again and again. Finally I asked him if he was going to make and adjustment to try to hit the ball solid?  I then explained to him what was happening in how the lowest point of his swing was before the ball and how we want to get it in front of the ball so that he can crush it.  I then adjusted him to a better location and told him to just swing that thang and his very first words where..."Dad it doesn't look right and feels uncomfortable." He was reluctant to swing the club but when I finally convinced him he swung out of frustration...only to light fire to that six iron.  He then looked at me dumbfounded and started laughing because he had never hit a ball with that much leverage before.  

 

If you are one of the few that sets up to the ball comfortably and gets good results then more power to you. This isn't the standard though I assure you and if you don't produce the desired results where you are comfortable, that means that your desired results will reside in a place that is uncomfortable. You will have to find that position and then make it become comfortable over time if you ever want to play your best golf and there is no way around this fact. The height of frustration in my opinion would be to not know or fully understand why a given outcome is occurring. 

 

7 hours ago, djmohab2 said:

As someone that grew up very mathematically oriented and found out "feel isn't real" with many of my swing thoughts, I actually agree with this sentiment, although most won't.

This was my biggest revelation when I switched from righty to lefty as those swing motions feel completely different.  I play the game through feel also, but that feel came from an understanding of what must happen at impact. I analyze every shot that I ever hit on the golf course using d plane and ball flight laws as simply as this process: 

 

1. Did Iever the ball? If yes proceed to analyze the resulting ball fight...If no disregard the ball flight and go find leverage.  This includes centeredness of strike and orientation to low point. This is the simplest application of d plane. 

 

2. Did the ball start on my intended start line? If yes analyze shot shape...If no go find the point along my swing arc that I need to strike the ball at to get it to start on that line. There is only one point along the swing arc that will align to a given target. This simplest application of the ball flight laws. 

 

3. Did the shot have the correct amount of intended curvature? If yes, great shot, repeat it...If no adjust the swing plane / shoulder line to increase or decrease difference between club face and club face and club path at impact to increase or decrease curvature.  This is the simplest application of both d plane and ball flight laws and this is what governs every golf shot that is ever hit...period.  

 

Knowing that these are the only parameters to a golf shot actually put me at ease because I know that pro golfers are not magicians and that I can hit any shot that they can. Where they separate is their ability to relentlessly repeat and get to their predicted and desired impact conditions.  They instinctively know impact so that is what drives their grip, stance, and posture but the nuisance is that just having so called good grip, stance, and posture does not in any way mean you understand where you need to be in relation to the ball to create the desired shot. You must either hit millions of golf balls or know the math and go and try to speed up your learning curve. I lived this when I switched from righty to lefty and it was one of the most valuable lessons I have ever had in sport.  

[leezer99]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I play to a 5 handicap right and left handed

Got ourselves a modern day Mac O'Grady over here.

 

 

[heavy_hitter]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

 

 

I play to a 5 handicap right and left handed and have never had a golf lesson.  It took me 6 years to break 90 right handed and 6 months to do it lefty and the main difference was I knew of the ball flight laws and d plane as I switched to lefty.  How did I improve so fast...it damn sure wasn't because of grip, stance, and posture. It was because I knew what I was searching for before I even hit the shot.  

 

 

So you are saying you aren't very good.  These kids you are giving advice to are playing at + handicaps.  Mine is a +3.1.  While in the world of amateur hacks sitting at a country club a 5 is considered good, in this junior world, it is not.

[chrissdc]

9 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

So you are saying you aren't very good.  These kids you are giving advice to are playing at + handicaps.  Mine is a +3.1.  While in the world of amateur hacks sitting at a country club a 5 is considered good, in this junior world, it is not.

Boom!!!

[Righty to Lefty]

18 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

So you are saying you aren't very good.  These kids you are giving advice to are playing at + handicaps.  Mine is a +3.1.  While in the world of amateur hacks sitting at a country club a 5 is considered good, in this junior world, it is not.

I don't care what your handicap is...I have stood in front of a former Euro tour pro that is a +7 and some other plus handicaps at the same time and told them that not only were they wrong...they were flat out wrong, and then proceeded to prove it with facts until the aha moment came some 4 hours later when finally it clicked for them.  Just because you know how you play golf, doesn't mean that you know how golf is played. If you were truly curious you would question my findings if you disagreed and force me to clarify if you didn't understand, and then go test for yourself and come back with your findings. I encourage this as most will eventually find that there is no "secret" and that this information was sitting in plain sight yet being ignored by the masses for the most part.  

 

If I was making up things then you would easily be able to corner me and I wouldn't be able to answer. The second that someone puts me into a position where I have to mention my personal handicap and that I play right and left handed I know that things are being diverted away from the real point of the conversation.  I will not play that game and be disrespectful to anyone in these forums because it distracts from those trying to gather information in the thread so if you want to throw personal jabs then they will be ignored but if you want to question and inquire about the information that I put up I will answer every question without fail.  If I was putting out bad information on the largest golf forum on the planet I would be getting crucified by other engineers with the true facts, so I can deal with someone telling me that they think I'm a bad golfer believing that they have proven a point. 

 

The math of golf cannot be disputed and that is the foundation that I operate from as it doesn't care what my handicap is and if you aren't aware of the math of the game you are doing yourself a disservice in my opinion as I found it to be the cheat code when I switched over from righty to lefty.  I note that it took me six years to break 90 right handed and 6 months to do it lefty because when I switched over to lefty that was when I was exposed to the math of golf and my improvement became parabolic with that knowledge alone. My best score right handed is 2 over 72 and my best score lefty is 1 over 71. I have spent the past 17 years in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East so I don't get to play a lot of golf other than hitting into a net but what I do plenty of is think golf pretty much all day every day. I am proud of my golf journey so far and can't wait to be able to play everyday and see what level of play I can truly achieve.   

[leezer99]

Glad you made it back @Righty to Lefty but knowing the physics of the swing and how it produces a certain shot shape has no impact on a players ability to change their swing to fix it.  Last night my son was at the range with his buddy and my son had been fighting a slight push.  The dad of the other boy is a pretty well renowned coach and former top five junior player in the country.  In five seconds he identified a setup fault, showed him one thing he could do to fix it and in two swings my son was back to hitting tight draws.  Newton himself couldn't have explained the motion of the swing well enough to impart the change necessary to fix what he was doing wrong.  

[heavy_hitter]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I don't care what your handicap is...I have stood in front of a former Euro tour pro that is a +7 and some other plus handicaps at the same time and told them that not only were they wrong...they were flat out wrong, and then proceeded to prove it with facts until the aha moment came some 4 hours later when finally it clicked for them.  Just because you know how you play golf, doesn't mean that you know how golf is played. If you were truly curious you would question my findings if you disagreed and force me to clarify if you didn't understand, and then go test for yourself and come back with your findings. I encourage this as most will eventually find that there is no "secret" and that this information was sitting in plain sight yet being ignored by the masses for the most part.  

 

If I was making up things then you would easily be able to corner me and I wouldn't be able to answer. The second that someone puts me into a position where I have to mention my personal handicap and that I play right and left handed I know that things are being diverted away from the real point of the conversation.  I will not play that game and be disrespectful to anyone in these forums because it distracts from those trying to gather information in the thread so if you want to throw personal jabs then they will be ignored but if you want to question and inquire about the information that I put up I will answer every question without fail.  If I was putting out bad information on the largest golf forum on the planet I would be getting crucified by other engineers with the true facts, so I can deal with someone telling me that they think I'm a bad golfer believing that they have proven a point. 

 

The math of golf cannot be disputed and that is the foundation that I operate from as it doesn't care what my handicap is and if you aren't aware of the math of the game you are doing yourself a disservice in my opinion as I found it to be the cheat code when I switched over from righty to lefty.  I note that it took me six years to break 90 right handed and 6 months to do it lefty because when I switched over to lefty that was when I was exposed to the math of golf and my improvement became parabolic with that knowledge alone. My best score right handed is 2 over 72 and my best score lefty is 1 over 71. I have spent the past 17 years in Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East so I don't get to play a lot of golf other than hitting into a net but what I do plenty of is think golf pretty much all day every day. I am proud of my golf journey so far and can't wait to be able to play everyday and see what level of play I can truly achieve.   

 

You again have missed the point.  Kudos.

 

I do think it is cool that you can play from both sides of the ball.  Just 100% disagree with what you are saying.

[Righty to Lefty]

On 5/13/2022 at 2:33 PM, leezer99 said:

Glad you made it back @Righty to Lefty but knowing the physics of the swing and how it produces a certain shot shape has no impact on a players ability to change their swing to fix it.  Last night my son was at the range with his buddy and my son had been fighting a slight push.  The dad of the other boy is a pretty well renowned coach and former top five junior player in the country.  In five seconds he identified a setup fault, showed him one thing he could do to fix it and in two swings my son was back to hitting tight draws.  Newton himself couldn't have explained the motion of the swing well enough to impart the change necessary to fix what he was doing wrong.  

It absolutely has a massive impact on the players ability to understand what must happen on a given shot and how to fix it on their own which is when you know that you truly grasp a given concept.  Your own story that you provided proves my point...you said that the coach identified the fault...and not the player...and that is the issue with not understanding the math of impact.  If the golfer was aware of the math they would know that so long as the ball started on their intended start line and was struck with leverage that the ONLY variable is their swing plane / shoulder line.  An unintended slight fade simply means that the plane was further left of the target line for a right handed golfer, and that to correct it all that is needed is to keep everything else the same and adjust the shoulder line/ plane closer to the target line and observe the shot shape change until it is as desired.  I assure that there was nothing wrong with your Son's swing motion in the first place, he was out of position with the ball in relation to his intentions.    

 

That's great that the coach understands how to address the issue, but what about when the golfer is in a tournament or on their own? These are the exact same types of adjustments that must also be made throughout a given round as a golfer fatigues.  I also feel that there is a misconception that someone aware of the math of golf is standing over a shot thinking about degrees of angle of attack and such and that is incorrect.  The math of golf governs the preshot parameters for the setup to execute a given shot and they are non negotiable so I don't get why there is so much push back on simply being aware of them. To hit a given shot the club face MUST point to the intended start line at impact, the low point MUST be in a certain location to maintain leverage, and the plane of the swing MUST have a given orientation in order to create a given shot shape and no matter what your swing motion looks like, you are still subject to those rules at impact so why so much fight in knowing what they are so that you can adjust and manipulate them from shot to shot? 

 

Once those calculations have been made and I am over the shot, the only thing that is under my control is how much energy I inject into the shot to hit it a certain distance because all of the other parameters are fixed and not up for debate.  During any round of golf you should be in constant awareness of your intended shot and the resulting ball flight and make the micro adjustments to your swing plane and low point orientation to keep your round going.  This is not rocket science in any way and is actually dead simple easy and leads to true comprehension and understanding which to me was the most eye opening thing I have ever experienced in golf.  A guy explaining the concept using a trash can lid is what was the "aha" moment for my friend who has held a tour card to understand the concept and then immediately go and apply it to his game. He thought he was a magician and I'm sitting there looking at him setup to a given shot and telling him that was exactly what was supposed to happen. 

[kcap]

With all due respect you are really citing basic ball flight, plane and face mechanics which people pick up pretty early on.  You are making it sound like this AHAA moment but this is ball flight 101. The Physics of golf is the physics and has been around for decades.  It was clearly eye opening for you, but shocked it was eyeopening for a tour pro... face is closed relative to the path makes the ball draw -- what is the big deal about?

 

So let us say,   your miss is a push, which it was Leezer's son and it is my son's miss as well.   Face could be open at impact because of several reasons,  your grip has weakened (face open), your weight is on heels at set up (hanging back at impact), ball is back in stance (promotes a open club face), lined up to the left of target, club takeaway is open or wrists are not bowed at the top. All of these issues (except the last two) occurred prior to him moving the club. 

 

In your example, you are asking folks to manipulate the club face to fix a setup issue, rather than fix the issue.  There is a reason most pros and good golfers put 3 sticks down on the range before heading out to the course -- they want to make sure they alway are set up correctly.  

[Righty to Lefty]

14 hours ago, kcap said:

With all due respect you are really citing basic ball flight, plane and face mechanics which people pick up pretty early on.  You are making it sound like this AHAA moment but this is ball flight 101. The Physics of golf is the physics and has been around for decades.  It was clearly eye opening for you, but shocked it was eyeopening for a tour pro... face is closed relative to the path makes the ball draw -- what is the big deal about?

 

So let us say,   your miss is a push, which it was Leezer's son and it is my son's miss as well.   Face could be open at impact because of several reasons,  your grip has weakened (face open), your weight is on heels at set up (hanging back at impact), ball is back in stance (promotes a open club face), lined up to the left of target, club takeaway is open or wrists are not bowed at the top. All of these issues (except the last two) occurred prior to him moving the club. 

 

In your example, you are asking folks to manipulate the club face to fix a setup issue, rather than fix the issue.  There is a reason most pros and good golfers put 3 sticks down on the range before heading out to the course -- they want to make sure they alway are set up correctly.  

You stated it like the ball flight laws and d plane are common knowledge that are understood by all when it clearly isn't because if all golfer's understood them then every golfer would quickly be able analyze a given golf shot and correct themselves without help from a coach and the only thing that a coach or a pro would be useful for would be course management and strategy.  If you truly understand what you are trying to accomplish then why would you weaken your grip unless it was to execute a different type of shot say a high draw or a high fade which would require you to preset more loft onto the club prior to taking your grip (the correct way to weaken the grip.)  If your weight was back on your heals then you just made a poor swing motion and that shot should be disregarded because you didn't lever it and were out of position.  If the ball is back in your stance then it should be back there for a reason such as you were trying to flight a shot lower, or you were moving the ball to a different location in relation to low point to try to maintain leverage and lag tension as you fatigued.  If you lined up left of target then this should be a one off occurrence that doesn't require a coach to fix.  Taking the club away open or bowing wrists and such are left up to each individual so long as they understand that there must be a counter move to arrive at impact on time but this requires change of the swing motion and this should be a change that is made as a last resort.  DJ bows his wrist because it feels comfortable to him while Fowler is laid off because it feels good to him and both play so long as the golfer can repeat it and get to impact. 

 

But shouldn't you know impact first? If the golfer truly understands impact then when they hit a push the first thing they will do is analyze the quality of impact, and if it is good then they would simply move everything as a unit around to bring it onto the target line as that is simply a misalignment.  If impact wasn't good, then the golfer should backtrack to get into a better location to find leverage.  If a golfer truly understands impact they will fix their own grip because they will feel the lack of leverage.  The easiest way to figure out grip, stance and posture all at once on your own is go to the back of a hitting mat, place the leading edge against the back of it, and try to push the mat straight ahead and feel for where it needs to be to create the most pressure on the mat. This alone will force the golfer to get the proper grip, stance, and posture all at once and it will even provide the proper distance from the ball. The ball will need to be contacted just prior to this point. You should also note that when you preset the face of a club open or closed then take your grip, the ball will be struck at a different point along the swing arc even though the low point will still be in front of the ball the same amount for a ball being hit off the ground. 

 

This is exactly why every golfer is free to swing their swing because if they are paying attention they will teach themselves how to get into the most powerful position possible for their particular body type because impact is non negotiable and that is where the golfer should be focused at all times and this video is the single best explanation I've heard on the subject: 

 

[leezer99]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You stated it like the ball flight laws and d plane are common knowledge that are understood by all when it clearly isn't because if all golfer's understood them then every golfer would quickly be able analyze a given golf shot and correct themselves without help from a coach and the only thing that a coach or a pro would be useful for would be course management and strategy.  If you truly understand what you are trying to accomplish then why would you weaken your grip unless it was to execute a different type of shot say a high draw or a high fade which would require you to preset more loft onto the club prior to taking your grip (the correct way to weaken the grip.)  If your weight was back on your heals then you just made a poor swing motion and that shot should be disregarded because you didn't lever it and were out of position.  If the ball is back in your stance then it should be back there for a reason such as you were trying to flight a shot lower, or you were moving the ball to a different location in relation to low point to try to maintain leverage and lag tension as you fatigued.  If you lined up left of target then this should be a one off occurrence that doesn't require a coach to fix.  Taking the club away open or bowing wrists and such are left up to each individual so long as they understand that there must be a counter move to arrive at impact on time but this requires change of the swing motion and this should be a change that is made as a last resort.  DJ bows his wrist because it feels comfortable to him while Fowler is laid off because it feels good to him and both play so long as the golfer can repeat it and get to impact. 

 

But shouldn't you know impact first? If the golfer truly understands impact then when they hit a push the first thing they will do is analyze the quality of impact, and if it is good then they would simply move everything as a unit around to bring it onto the target line as that is simply a misalignment.  If impact wasn't good, then the golfer should backtrack to get into a better location to find leverage.  If a golfer truly understands impact they will fix their own grip because they will feel the lack of leverage.  The easiest way to figure out grip, stance and posture all at once on your own is go to the back of a hitting mat, place the leading edge against the back of it, and try to push the mat straight ahead and feel for where it needs to be to create the most pressure on the mat. This alone will force the golfer to get the proper grip, stance, and posture all at once and it will even provide the proper distance from the ball. The ball will need to be contacted just prior to this point. You should also note that when you preset the face of a club open or closed then take your grip, the ball will be struck at a different point along the swing arc even though the low point will still be in front of the ball the same amount for a ball being hit off the ground. 

 

This is exactly why every golfer is free to swing their swing because if they are paying attention they will teach themselves how to get into the most powerful position possible for their particular body type because impact is non negotiable and that is where the golfer should be focused at all times and this video is the single best explanation I've heard on the subject: 

 

 

Homie, did you even watch the video you posted?  At 1:52 the guy even says, "after the fundamentals have been learned... so grip, stance, posture and alignment"

 

[kcap]

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You stated it like the ball flight laws and d plane are common knowledge that are understood by all when it clearly isn't because if all golfer's understood them then every golfer would quickly be able analyze a given golf shot and correct themselves without help from a coach and the only thing that a coach or a pro would be useful for would be course management and strategy.  If you truly understand what you are trying to accomplish then why would you weaken your grip unless it was to execute a different type of shot say a high draw or a high fade which would require you to preset more loft onto the club prior to taking your grip (the correct way to weaken the grip.)  If your weight was back on your heals then you just made a poor swing motion and that shot should be disregarded because you didn't lever it and were out of position.  If the ball is back in your stance then it should be back there for a reason such as you were trying to flight a shot lower, or you were moving the ball to a different location in relation to low point to try to maintain leverage and lag tension as you fatigued.  If you lined up left of target then this should be a one off occurrence that doesn't require a coach to fix.  Taking the club away open or bowing wrists and such are left up to each individual so long as they understand that there must be a counter move to arrive at impact on time but this requires change of the swing motion and this should be a change that is made as a last resort.  DJ bows his wrist because it feels comfortable to him while Fowler is laid off because it feels good to him and both play so long as the golfer can repeat it and get to impact. 

 

But shouldn't you know impact first? If the golfer truly understands impact then when they hit a push the first thing they will do is analyze the quality of impact, and if it is good then they would simply move everything as a unit around to bring it onto the target line as that is simply a misalignment.  If impact wasn't good, then the golfer should backtrack to get into a better location to find leverage.  If a golfer truly understands impact they will fix their own grip because they will feel the lack of leverage.  The easiest way to figure out grip, stance and posture all at once on your own is go to the back of a hitting mat, place the leading edge against the back of it, and try to push the mat straight ahead and feel for where it needs to be to create the most pressure on the mat. This alone will force the golfer to get the proper grip, stance, and posture all at once and it will even provide the proper distance from the ball. The ball will need to be contacted just prior to this point. You should also note that when you preset the face of a club open or closed then take your grip, the ball will be struck at a different point along the swing arc even though the low point will still be in front of the ball the same amount for a ball being hit off the ground. 

 

This is exactly why every golfer is free to swing their swing because if they are paying attention they will teach themselves how to get into the most powerful position possible for their particular body type because impact is non negotiable and that is where the golfer should be focused at all times and this video is the single best explanation I've heard on the subject: 

 

Do not assume that people are not knowledgeable on this forum.  You are not discussing golf with some weekend hacks, All the people out here are either good golfers or have spent a enormous amount of time and energy  helping their child achieve their dream.  Dude, there some parents here who learnt the art of become master fitters for their kids. 

 

And yes - the physics of golf is very well known, what creates a certain ball flight is well understood.  I am really sorry that it was this massive revelation for you. My first lesson which was over 25 yrs ago, my pro went over what creates draw swing.

 

You said a lot in your post that just shows me your lack of understanding of the "swing journey"  

 

Nobody weakens their grip - it just happens,  ball position moves back a hair - again inadvertently.    A  tour pro coined these "Golf Hygiene",  just simple  examples that everyone experiences during their swing journey, and  it will screw up your impact position and ball flight.   This occurs to all PROs.  There are plenty of videos of Adam Scott with three sticks on the range before a round, I forget the pro but he was using a grip trainer prior to the round to ensure he had the right grip - just a couple of swings to make sure  that the basics are all set.  If tour pro need to focus on fundamentals prior to a competitive round, I find it hard to believe our kids do not.   Btw: I do believe that weekend hacks do not need to focus on this, some of them are just trying to make contact, get the ball in the air or hit a fairway/green.   Conversely, HHs son is trying to hit a 8yd draw, carry the right edge of dog left bunker 275yd out to be in the best position to attack a right pin.  For them, having the right set up is essential.  You cant execute that shot if your setup or fundamentals  are not precise.   BTW, the ability to execute that shot is what I call "golf skill"  

 

The question arises is do you need a coach to point these out?   It depends on the child and how they have been taught. My son just needs a bunch of videos and he checks his set up, takeaway, weight transfer..and can figure it out where he is off.  I actually believe the advanced juniors are way more knowledgeable and can figure this stuff out pretty quickly on their own. That said, understanding impact and what leads to correct impact i.e set up and body movement all came from his coach.  So yes, today he knows what messes up his impact but the initial knowledge was from his coach. 

The weekend golfers -- not so much, and I think that is your audience, hence the reaction from all the parent on this forum.    

 

Final thought,  I would like like to know the name of the Tour Pro that was not aware of ball flight and D plane.  I find it really hard to believe, unless he is someone who played a long time ago and just did not have the measurement tools that we have currently.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by kcap

[heavy_hitter]

1 hour ago, kcap said:

Do not assume that people are not knowledgeable on this forum.  You are not discussing golf with some weekend hacks, All the people out here are either good golfers or have spent a enormous amount of time and energy  helping their child achieve their dream.  Dude, there some parents here who learnt the art of become master fitters for their kids. 

 

And yes - the physics of golf is very well known, what creates a certain ball flight is well understood.  I am really sorry that it was this massive revelation for you. My first lesson which was over 25 yrs ago, my pro went over what creates draw swing.

 

You said a lot in your post that just shows me your lack of understanding of the "swing journey"  

 

No body weakens their grip - it could just happen,  a ball position could be moved back in the stance inadvertently.    A  tour pro coined these "Golf Hygiene",  basic example that occur to everyone and will screw up your impact position and ball flight.   This occurs to all PROs.  There are plenty of videos of Adam Scott with three sticks on the range before a round, I forget the pro but he was using a grip trainer prior to the round to ensure he had the right grip - just a couple of swings to make sure  that the basics are all set.  If tour pro need to focus on fundamentals prior to a competitive round, I find it hard to believe our kids do not.   Btw: I do believe that weekend hacks do not need to focus on this, some of them are just trying to make contact, get the ball in the air or hit a fairway/green.   Conversely, HHs son is trying to hit a 8yd draw, carry the right edge of dog left bunker 275yd out to be in the best position to attack a right pin.  For them, having the right set up is essential.  You cant execute that shot if your setup or fundamentals  are not precise.   BTW, the ability the execute that shot is what I call "golf skill"  

 

The question arises is do you need a coach to point these out?   It depends on the child and how they have been taught. My son just needs a bunch of videos and he checks his set up, takeaway, weight transfer..and can figure it out where he is off.  I actually believe the advanced juniors are way more knowledgeable and can figure this stuff out pretty quickly on their own. That said, understanding impact and what leads to correct impact i.e set up and body movement all came from his coach.  So yes, today he knows what messes up his impact but the initial knowledge was from his coach. 

The weekend golfers -- not so much, and I think that is your audience, hence the reaction from all the parent on this forum.    

 

Final thought,  I would like like to know the name of the Tour Pro that was not aware of ball flight and D plane.  I find it really hard to believe, unless he is someone who played a long time ago and just did not have the measurement tools that we have currently.

 

 

 

 

 

What righty/lefty talking about is also the effect, not the cause.  They have to understand the cause of  face and path to be able to correct it.  Last tournament my kid was all over the place the second day and couldn't find a green.  Culprit was posture in the set up with nerves causing him to go back to bad habits.  Being out of sync can also cause problems.  

[tiger1873]

Only one things matters

 

Is you hit the center of the club every time if you can do this you have the ability to beat everyone. The problem is no one can hit it in the center if there honest. That is what makes gold so great.

 

Everything else is BS.   It's why what works for one person is bad advice for another.    

 

All this talk about D-plane and how to swing doesn't matter.  Everyone has to figure out what they are doing wrong. 

[Righty to Lefty]

19 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

Homie, did you even watch the video you posted?  At 1:52 the guy even says, "after the fundamentals have been learned... so grip, stance, posture and alignment"

 

Yeah and though I disagreed with that statement that doesn't mean the rest of the video wasn't very useful.  What you are missing is that in no other sport are you taught these things first...not baseball, not tennis, not hockey..etc. I have early on video of my Son hitting a golf ball with my clubs when he was 5 years old and since my clubs were too heavy for him he split his grip like a hockey player by instinct to accomplish the task.  Once I built his clubs for him he immediately adjusted his grip, stance and posture without me ever even mentioning it.  He has a beautiful swing motion and generates tons of speed but he had no clue where he needed to be in relation to the ball and his mistake was that he could pound his favorite club, the driver, but he had no idea that you hit the ball off the ground at at different point along the swing arc than you do a driver off a tee. He didn't understand impact and this almost made him quit because he became so frustrated when he would play, until I began to school him on impact. 

 

17 hours ago, kcap said:

Do not assume that people are not knowledgeable on this forum.  You are not discussing golf with some weekend hacks, All the people out here are either good golfers or have spent a enormous amount of time and energy  helping their child achieve their dream.  Dude, there some parents here who learnt the art of become master fitters for their kids. 

 

And yes - the physics of golf is very well known, what creates a certain ball flight is well understood.  I am really sorry that it was this massive revelation for you. My first lesson which was over 25 yrs ago, my pro went over what creates draw swing.

 

You said a lot in your post that just shows me your lack of understanding of the "swing journey"  

 

Nobody weakens their grip - it just happens,  ball position moves back a hair - again inadvertently.    A  tour pro coined these "Golf Hygiene",  just simple  examples that everyone experiences during their swing journey, and  it will screw up your impact position and ball flight.   This occurs to all PROs.  There are plenty of videos of Adam Scott with three sticks on the range before a round, I forget the pro but he was using a grip trainer prior to the round to ensure he had the right grip - just a couple of swings to make sure  that the basics are all set.  If tour pro need to focus on fundamentals prior to a competitive round, I find it hard to believe our kids do not.   Btw: I do believe that weekend hacks do not need to focus on this, some of them are just trying to make contact, get the ball in the air or hit a fairway/green.   Conversely, HHs son is trying to hit a 8yd draw, carry the right edge of dog left bunker 275yd out to be in the best position to attack a right pin.  For them, having the right set up is essential.  You cant execute that shot if your setup or fundamentals  are not precise.   BTW, the ability to execute that shot is what I call "golf skill"  

 

The question arises is do you need a coach to point these out?   It depends on the child and how they have been taught. My son just needs a bunch of videos and he checks his set up, takeaway, weight transfer..and can figure it out where he is off.  I actually believe the advanced juniors are way more knowledgeable and can figure this stuff out pretty quickly on their own. That said, understanding impact and what leads to correct impact i.e set up and body movement all came from his coach.  So yes, today he knows what messes up his impact but the initial knowledge was from his coach. 

The weekend golfers -- not so much, and I think that is your audience, hence the reaction from all the parent on this forum.    

 

Final thought,  I would like like to know the name of the Tour Pro that was not aware of ball flight and D plane.  I find it really hard to believe, unless he is someone who played a long time ago and just did not have the measurement tools that we have currently.

 

 

 

 

I also never assume that the person is knowledgeable on a given subject also as that always leads to glossing over details that often lead to further confusion.  The physics of golf is not very well known by the masses and I would challenge you to walk up to ten random people at the driving range and ask them about basic ball flight laws and d plane and you MIGHT get one that sort of has a clue about them.  That is the fundamental issue. 

 

You said: 

"Nobody weakens their grip - it just happens,  ball position moves back a hair - again inadvertently.    A  tour pro coined these "Golf Hygiene",  just simple  examples that everyone experiences during their swing journey, and  it will screw up your impact position and ball flight."

 

You make my point for me with statements like that because if you truly know impact and are paying attention on every shot...that miscalculation will not persist as you will catch it right when you noticed that the shot you hit didn't match your intentions and adjust immediately.  If you are working on your grip prior to a competitive round your are done for right then and don't have much of a chance.  Putting alignment sticks down is great for overcoming visual error because most have error when they stand to the side of their target line so nothing wrong with constantly working on that aspect though I would discourage working on grip, stance, and posture prior to a round because if you are uncertain of those prior to your round you will certainly be creating uncertain impact. 

 

"Btw: I do believe that weekend hacks do not need to focus on this, some of them are just trying to make contact, get the ball in the air or hit a fairway/green.   Conversely, HHs son is trying to hit a 8yd draw, carry the right edge of dog left bunker 275yd out to be in the best position to attack a right pin.  For them, having the right set up is essential.  You cant execute that shot if your setup or fundamentals  are not precise."

 

By your rationale all these "weekend hacks" need is some grip, stance, and posture and they will be on their way when in actuality they need some understanding of impact because if they simply get their low point of their swing arc in front of the ball the ball will go up in the air and they will no longer struggle to make contact.  A pro is subject to the exact same rules and are in no way different in their requirements to play functional good golf and the rules to hit an 8 yard draw to carry the bunker from 275 out are no different for a pro than a rank beginner.  

 

15 hours ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

What righty/lefty talking about is also the effect, not the cause.  They have to understand the cause of  face and path to be able to correct it.  Last tournament my kid was all over the place the second day and couldn't find a green.  Culprit was posture in the set up with nerves causing him to go back to bad habits.  Being out of sync can also cause problems.  

I am addressing the root cause and not the effect and vehemently disagree with your entire statement.  Simply put posture in your set up does in no way guarantee that you will improve impact, but getting into the proper orientation in relation to the ball will.  Your Son's posture caused him to be out of position to the ball and his fundamental misunderstanding of impact caused all of his adjustments to be incorrect, thus spraying it all over the yard. Grip, stance, posture, nerves, course design, etc. are all an attempt to distract the golfer from impact which doesn't care about any of that.  I have been asking my buddy for the better part of 8 years to let me put his name on here and him actually come on here and interact but he doesn't want to be named but nevertheless the story will live on and I will continue to tell it. The fact is that most pros don't know about the math of the game because they have played the game from an athletic perspective all their lives and so long as they don't sustain major injury they don't have to know the math because they have become a defacto swing robot that can relentlessly repeat shots in relation to their intentions but that has come via millions of reps and multiple thousands of rounds of golf and most ams don't have the time or discipline to put in that kind of work so something must be done to steepen the learning curve and knowing impact is the "cheat code." 

 

11 hours ago, tiger1873 said:

Only one things matters

 

Is you hit the center of the club every time if you can do this you have the ability to beat everyone. The problem is no one can hit it in the center if there honest. That is what makes gold so great.

 

Everything else is BS.   It's why what works for one person is bad advice for another.    

 

All this talk about D-plane and how to swing doesn't matter.  Everyone has to figure out what they are doing wrong. 

 You first statement is only partially true as hitting the center is only part of the equation. Hitting the ball with leverage means that your low point is in the proper orientation to the ball, but when it is stuck along the swing arc, and the manipulation of the plane of your swing are responsible for start direction and shot shape and provide the rest of the answer to executing a given shot.  Striking the center will lead to excellent distance control but that alone doesn't mean that you will play good golf though it is a good first step. D plane and ball flight laws are telling you exactly what you are doing wrong or right on any given shot.  I am addicted to impact and would quit golf if I didn't lever the ball more often than not.   

[tiger1873]

3 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 

 You first statement is only partially true as hitting the center is only part of the equation. Hitting the ball with leverage means that your low point is in the proper orientation to the ball, but when it is stuck along the swing arc, and the manipulation of the plane of your swing are responsible for start direction and shot shape and provide the rest of the answer to executing a given shot.  Striking the center will lead to excellent distance control but that alone doesn't mean that you will play good golf though it is a good first step. D plane and ball flight laws are telling you exactly what you are doing wrong or right on any given shot.  I am addicted to impact and would quit golf if I didn't lever the ball more often than not.   

 

Dude you're overcomplicating things.  If you have a repeatable swing that can strike close to the center of the club you one the best players in the world.        

 

99% of the players out there can't hit it anywhere near the center of the ball.  Physics doesn't matter if you can't repeat the shot in the same place on the club or even close to it.   Everyone is different and has to figure out how they hit the ball best.   That the great thing about golf there is more then one way to do things.

 

 

[kcap]

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Yeah and though I disagreed with that statement that doesn't mean the rest of the video wasn't very useful.  What you are missing is that in no other sport are you taught these things first...not baseball, not tennis, not hockey..etc.

That is mighty convenient, ignore the basis of the video "which you titled the best on the topic"  because it disagrees with your rationale.

 

In every sport, baseball, tennis, table tennis, squash, football, hockey -- kids are taught initially how to grip the bat or raquet and  what is the correct stance.  What are you talking about with that statement?   

 

4 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You make my point for me with statements like that because if you truly know impact and are paying attention on every shot...that miscalculation will not persist as you will catch it right when you noticed that the shot you hit didn't match your intentions and adjust immediately. 

 

There are several reason why impact could not be ideal. I listed them in an earlier post, you are really not aware of the "swing journey" of a child.  Their body changes, tendencies come back etc.  You make it sound like, impact not ideal, fix x..and move on.   Wish it was that easy.  And do not tell me it is easy.  HH said, you are talking about  kids that are significantly more skilled at this sport than you. 

 

5 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If you are working on your grip prior to a competitive round your are done for right then and don't have much of a chance.  Putting alignment sticks down is great for overcoming visual error because most have error when they stand to the side of their target line so nothing wrong with constantly working on that aspect though I would discourage working on grip, stance, and posture prior to a round because if you are uncertain of those prior to your round you will certainly be creating uncertain impact. 

 

A lot of opinion without anything to back it up.  I mentioned there are Tour Pro working with a grip trainer prior to his competitive round to ensure it was perfect.  If you are on IG, go search for a post from Justin Parsons yesterday. It featured  Brendan Grace prior to the PGA Championship round.  He had a full alignment set drill, coupled with a take away drill.  Again examples of Pros focusing on things that need to be accurate and perfect before a round.   

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I am addressing the root cause and not the effect and vehemently disagree with your entire statement.  Simply put posture in your set up does in no way guarantee that you will improve impact, but getting into the proper orientation in relation to the ball will.  Your Son's posture caused him to be out of position to the ball and his fundamental misunderstanding of impact caused all of his adjustments to be incorrect

Poor impact was caused poor posture, alignment, grip and stance.  Ask your son to hit a draw in perfect impact with a  hockey grip, stand straight (no flex), legs wide apart and a open stance... that exercise will tell you what is the cause and the effect.

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

I have been asking my buddy for the better part of 8 years to let me put his name on here and him actually come on here and interact but he doesn't want to be named but nevertheless the story will live on and I will continue to tell it. The fact is that most pros don't know about the math of the game because they have played the game from an athletic perspective all their lives and so long as they don't sustain major injury

Everyone has a buddy that they can't name !  That said, I have a buddy called "Ben", he wrote a book 70 yrs ago about the Fundamentals of Golf.  That book is  recognized by most people as the basis for teaching the golf swing across generations.  That book was the basis for your Video, so please do not tell me a "fact" that Pros do not know about the math of the game when "Ben" spoke about the swing plane 70 yrs ago.

Final thoughts,  impact is important, it is the point where energy from the club, created by your body movement is transferred to the ball and it determines velocity, angle and spin.   What creates your impact position?  Your body movement.  What helps your body move in a consistent manner?  Starting from a stable position that allows your body to move to impact.  That stable position is comprised of  grip, stance, alignment and posture.  Change any of those and I do not care who you are, but proper impact will never occur due to muscle memory.   And ask yourself the final question,  is it easier to control grip, stance, alignment and posture  while stationary or  swing plane  as you  move the hardest you can.   

I am done with this topic.  
   

[leezer99]

11 hours ago, kcap said:

A lot of opinion without anything to back it up.  I mentioned there are Tour Pro working with a grip trainer prior to his competitive round to ensure it was perfect.  If you are on IG, go search for a post from Justin Parsons yesterday. It featured  Brendan Grace prior to the PGA Championship round.  He had a full alignment set drill, coupled with a take away drill.  Again examples of Pros focusing on things that need to be accurate and perfect before a round.   

 

I've heard Foley say that Justin Rose (barf) can take as much as 15 minutes just setting up his alignment stick so he knows it's perfect.

[heavy_hitter]

10 hours ago, leezer99 said:

I've heard Foley say that Justin Rose (barf) can take as much as 15 minutes just setting up his alignment stick so he knows it's perfect.

Justin Rose

[DevilDog]

I can say my son’s instructor told him day 1 there is the textbook version of fundamentals and there is actually what players do; they aren’t the same. He also said knowing the textbook as a starting point is key then adjustments can be made based on ball flight. Good enough for son to get college scholarship. 
 

Getting overly technical will cease up the mind. The old paralysis through analysis. A good instructor will maximize what they do best and show them things that need improvement. My son had a bad slide left with his downswing. Would cause a lefter than left shot. Instructor showed him what he was doing and what to do. Two weeks later cured with some practice. 
 

bottom line is don’t overburden the kids with too much. Keep it simple.