Rule Clarifications

[Colin L]

For clarification before answering, are you saying a)  that it was not possible for a ball to be lost in the strip of grass and b) that stroke and distance was the only possibility for relief if your ball was in the pond?

[dmecca2]

11 hours ago, North Butte said:

20 years ago I was a member of a course with a peninsula green Par 3. There was a thin strip of rough (2-3’ wide maybe?) between the back edge of the green and the sleepers holding the green complex a few feet above the water. Think the back edge of #17 green at TPC Sawgrass. 
 

When a ball bounced or rolled off the back of the green it was totally blind and there was no way to know if the ball was in the hazard (re-tee) or had stopped in the rough (simple chip shot). Nobody in his right mind was going to walk a couple hundred yards around to the bridge that went out onto the peninsula and then backtrack to the tee if his ball was in the hazard. Probably 3 out of 4 times the I would stop in the rough. 

 

So everyone who played their routinely violated the “no provisionals for above in the hazard“ rule. Play the second ball and if the first one was in the rough, play it. 

There is a Model Local Rule (B-3) that permits a provisional in these situations specifically to speed up play. I have played that rule a couple times and it gets hairy when you find your ball in the hazard, and you have to decide to play it, or play the provisional ball

[North Butte]

11 hours ago, Colin L said:

For clarification before answering, are you saying a)  that it was not possible for a ball to be lost in the strip of grass and b) that stroke and distance was the only possibility for relief if your ball was in the pond?

A) Under normal conditions if not impossible, then very unlikely. If it were really wet I suppose a ball could plug in that strip of grass somewhere. But normally the ball would bounce or roll through the green and either settle in about an inch or two depth of Bermuda rough or be rolling fast enough to reach the sleeper and then on into the pond. 
 

B) At the time I was a member the entire peninsula was a yellow-line hazard. I played there once a few years ago and they had painted a red line all the way around the peninsula, presumably to speed up play since it is now a public course. That struck me as a rather egregious misuse of the concept “lateral”. I have not been there in several years. 
 

The folks I played with weren’t aware of any local rule if there was one but we basically treated it as though there were a local rule telling us to go ahead and hit a provisional to avoid having to walk back. 

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

That struck me as a rather egregious misuse of the concept “lateral”.

The 2019 rules changes gave committees (courses) the option of marking all penalty areas in red.

 

From the USGA site: "Committees are given the discretion to mark all penalty areas as red so that lateral relief is always allowed (but they may still mark penalty areas as yellow where they consider it appropriate)."

 

[North Butte]

3 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

The 2019 rules changes gave committees (courses) the option of marking all penalty areas in red.

 

From the USGA site: "Committees are given the discretion to mark all penalty areas as red so that lateral relief is always allowed (but they may still mark penalty areas as yellow where they consider it appropriate)."

 

I haven’t played at that course since long before 2019. More like 2003 or so. It was the old Rules. Guess like a lot of courses they were already doing what the Rules got around to allowing in 2019. 

[Augster]

18 hours ago, Colin L said:

What would be the point of allowing a "provisional" if you know your ball is in a penalty area.  A provisional ball is played provisionally  in advance of the stroke and distance that is the sole  procedure if your ball is OOB or lost.  If you know your ball is in a penalty area, you know you have to follow  the procedure for a penalty area, a procedure which gives you three of four choices. depending on colour.  If you play another ball from where you made your last stroke, it is a commitment to one of those choices.  You have made your choice.

 

Also, bear in mind that a provisional is not permitted only when you know your ball is in the PA,  only when you know you are going to have the choices .   Knowing is a certainty; knowing is having no doubt; knowing is not the same as virtual certainty with its 5% uncertainty.   A provisional arrangement is a "just in case'" shot.  if you know your ball is in a PA, what`' just in case is there?.  In case you are wrong and it's not in the PA? If that's a possibility, then you don't know your ball is in the PA and you are back to a provisional being allowable.

 

 

Why indeed. 
 

You certainly went on a pedantic sidebar.