Rule Clarifications

[Girevik]

My club had a two-day, Ryder Cup-esque event I  played in this weekend and there were a few situations that came up I'd like clarification on.

 

1.  My partner took a practice swing in the fairway and contacted his ball, moving it.  The announced to our opponents that he did not intend to hit the ball and replaced it without penalty.   I double checked it with our club head pro this morning and he confirmed the ruling, but for the life of me as I read the rule accidently moving the ball except in a few situations, one of which is not a practice swing, should result in a penalty.  Can someone point me to the rule that I'm missing?

 

2.  My partner hit a low drive that clearly bounced multiple times before coming to rest in what must have been another ball's mark.  He moved it claiming it was embedded, and that a ball did not have to be in its own mark to be considered embedded.  I thought the rule stated very clearly that it must be in its OWN mark.  Am I wrong?

 

3.  We were playing an alternate shot match play format.  Our opponents were on the right side of the fairway, and we were on the left.  We watched as our opponent's Player A hit a ball that we clearly saw thit the water, and their Player B then dropped and hit another shot.  My partner then hit his shot and we proceeded to the green.  When we got there, our opponents told us that Player B's ball was a provisional because they thought the first shot may have skipped out of the water, and they did indeed find what could only have been Player A's shot short of the green.  My partner said that he, thinking we were comfortably ahead, layed up rather than going for the pin.  Our opponents said they declared the 2nd ball as a provisional to one another but did not let us know.  What is the ruling here?  As I see it there are two components; are you obligated to inform your opponents of a provisional and is this even a valid situation to declare a provisional?  I'm not clear on the part of the rule that says "If you hit your ball toward a hazard and think that you will not find it solely because it is in the hazard, you may not play a provisional. If you play a second ball, that ball becomes your ball in play and counts as one of your relief options from said hazard. Exception: If you hit your ball and are uncertain whether it went into the hazard or an adjoining strip of land (that is not part of the hazard), you are permitted to hit a provisional ball. If you find your ball in the adjoining strip of land, you may play it as usual and disregard the provisional ball."  What exactly is "an adjoining strip of land"?

[sui generis]

7 minutes ago, Girevik said:

1.  My partner took a practice swing in the fairway and contacted his ball, moving it.  The announced to our opponents that he did not intend to hit the ball and replaced it without penalty.   I double checked it with our club head pro this morning and he confirmed the ruling, but for the life of me as I read the rule accidently moving the ball except in a few situations, one of which is not a practice swing, should result in a penalty.  Can someone point me to the rule that I'm missing?

 

2.  My partner hit a low drive that clearly bounced multiple times before coming to rest in what must have been another ball's mark.  He moved it claiming it was embedded, and that a ball did not have to be in its own mark to be considered embedded.  I thought the rule stated very clearly that it must be in its OWN mark.  Am I wrong?

 

You're quite correct about 1) and 2). As to 3) my head hurts. 😉

[Girevik]

1 minute ago, sui generis said:

 

You're quite correct about 1) and 2). As to 3) my head hurts. 😉

Your head hurts because I did a poor job of explaining the situation, or you're unclear on a complicated rule.  If it's the former I can try again.

[sui generis]

11 minutes ago, Girevik said:

Your head hurts because I did a poor job of explaining the situation, or you're unclear on a complicated rule.  If it's the former I can try again.

 

Not your fault. Necessarily long narratives make my head hurt and match play makes it hurt even more. 

 

As to 1) and 2) if they were also match play, it's good to be well versed on Rule 20.1b.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rules-and-interpretations.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

[Girevik]

#3 boils down to 2 things:

 

1.  Is being unsure if a ball that hit water may have skipped back onto land or not valid justification for paying a provisional?

 

2.  I s a player or team obligated to inform their opponent they are playing a provisional, or  s declaring it to a partner sufficient?

[rogolf]

40 minutes ago, Girevik said:

My club had a two-day, Ryder Cup-esque event I  played in this weekend and there were a few situations that came up I'd like clarification on.

 

1.  My partner took a practice swing in the fairway and contacted his ball, moving it.  The announced to our opponents that he did not intend to hit the ball and replaced it without penalty.   I double checked it with our club head pro this morning and he confirmed the ruling, but for the life of me as I read the rule accidently moving the ball except in a few situations, one of which is not a practice swing, should result in a penalty.  Can someone point me to the rule that I'm missing?

 

2.  My partner hit a low drive that clearly bounced multiple times before coming to rest in what must have been another ball's mark.  He moved it claiming it was embedded, and that a ball did not have to be in its own mark to be considered embedded.  I thought the rule stated very clearly that it must be in its OWN mark.  Am I wrong?

 

3.  We were playing an alternate shot match play format.  Our opponents were on the right side of the fairway, and we were on the left.  We watched as our opponent's Player A hit a ball that we clearly saw thit the water, and their Player B then dropped and hit another shot.  My partner then hit his shot and we proceeded to the green.  When we got there, our opponents told us that Player B's ball was a provisional because they thought the first shot may have skipped out of the water, and they did indeed find what could only have been Player A's shot short of the green.  My partner said that he, thinking we were comfortably ahead, layed up rather than going for the pin.  Our opponents said they declared the 2nd ball as a provisional to one another but did not let us know.  What is the ruling here?  As I see it there are two components; are you obligated to inform your opponents of a provisional and is this even a valid situation to declare a provisional?  I'm not clear on the part of the rule that says "If you hit your ball toward a hazard and think that you will not find it solely because it is in the hazard, you may not play a provisional. If you play a second ball, that ball becomes your ball in play and counts as one of your relief options from said hazard. Exception: If you hit your ball and are uncertain whether it went into the hazard or an adjoining strip of land (that is not part of the hazard), you are permitted to hit a provisional ball. If you find your ball in the adjoining strip of land, you may play it as usual and disregard the provisional ball."  What exactly is "an adjoining strip of land"?

1.  There is a penalty for accidentally moving your ball in any area of the course except the putting green and teeing area.  The moved ball must be replaced at its original spot, except when the ball is in the teeing area.  See Rule 9.4.

2.  You are correct - there is only free relief if the ball is embedded in its own pitch mark.  Your partner incurred a loss of hole penalty by moving his ball in play and subsequently playing from a wrong place.  Also covered in Rule 9.4.

3. Your opponents were correct in their play of a provisional ball as they thought the original might be lost outside a penalty area (seeing a ball "splash" in a penalty area is not always conclusive evidence that the ball is in the penalty area - balls do skip across water).  Rule 18.3 does say that the play of a provisional ball must be announced, but it does not say to whom; an Interpretation says that an announcement must be made so the people in the vicinity of the player can hear it.  However, it is good practice that opponents are advised.  Not sure what source you are quoting from about "adjoining piece of land" but that land must be outside the penalty area.

[Girevik]

19 minutes ago, rogolf said:

 

3. Your opponents were correct in their play of a provisional ball as they thought the original might be lost outside a penalty area 

That's not quite correct.  They thought the ball might be lost INSIDE a penalty area, or might have skipped out of the penalty area and be in paly.  There was no concern that it hit the water, came back into play, and then became lost outside the penalty area.

[Girevik]

For the sake of clarification, look at it this way.  You've laid up to the water on a hole with a forced carry.  you're right at the edge, so either carry the water or hit again from where you are (no drop zone).  You hit a ball that you see splash it the water, but think there is a chance it may have skipped to safety on the other side.  However you didn't see it land on the other side and can't be sure. 

 

Are you allowed to take a provisional for a ball that might be safe on the other side, or might be at the bottom of the pond?  As I read the rule, that i fs not an allowable reason for a provisional (not that I knew that at the time).  However, the spirit of the rule it to allow you to hit provisional to keep you from having to walk back to your current position should the ball not be found.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Girevik said:

For the sake of clarification, look at it this way.  You've laid up to the water on a hole with a forced carry.  you're right at the edge, so either carry the water or hit again from where you are (no drop zone).  You hit a ball that you see splash it the water, but think there is a chance it may have skipped to safety on the other side.  However you didn't see it land on the other side and can't be sure. 

 

Are you allowed to take a provisional for a ball that might be safe on the other side, or might be at the bottom of the pond?  As I read the rule, that i fs not an allowable reason for a provisional (not that I knew that at the time).  However, the spirit of the rule it to allow you to hit provisional to keep you from having to walk back to your current position should the ball not be found.

If it is known or virtually certain that the ball is in the penalty area, there is no option to hit a "provisional".  If the ball might be lost outside a penalty area (or out of bounds), a player may play a provisional.  "Might" provides guidance, and permits some discretion.  Imo, most cases involving "might", with some degree of doubt, would be ruled in the player's favour.

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, Girevik said:

#3 boils down to 2 things:

 

1.  Is being unsure if a ball that hit water may have skipped back onto land or not valid justification for paying a provisional?

 

2.  I s a player or team obligated to inform their opponent they are playing a provisional, or  s declaring it to a partner sufficient?

 

You quote a passage I don't recognise and which  refers to a hazard,  a term replaced by penalty area and defined differently in the 2019 rules.  Perhaps you should update yourself?  The applicable rule in the 2019 rules is 18.3a.

 

From your description, one question as to  whether a provisional can be played in this situation is easily answered. .  18.3a states if the player is aware the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed....  The ball might have skipped over the water and be lying in the general area and so a provisional in those terms is allowed.    The next question is, if it is in the general area, might it be lost?   That's  not clear, but if the players believed that was a possibility, they were entitled to play the provisional.

 

Regarding the announcement, I'm not comfortable with the thought that it is enough to tell your partner in foursomes (or a four ball for that matter) but the rules  explicitly do not define who the announcement must be made to, using the wonderfully vague expression other people.  A man and his dog out for a morning stroll, perhaps?     Anyway, what the rules do recognise is that it is not always possible to make the announcement to other people at the time but that the player has  to inform someone else when it becomes possible to do so.  [Interpretation 18.3b/1]. In the situation described, the opponents told you when they reached the green.  Was it possible for them to have done so before your partner played?   If not, then they are in my view in the clear.

 

Finally, there is another aspect to this.  You and your partner in a match are expected to look after your own interests.  You had the right to ask, before your partner played, how many strokes your opponents had taken or just whether the second ball was a provisional or not.   You made an assumption about the status of that second ball and got it wrong.  Provided it wasn't reasonably possible for your opponents to have told you before you played, it was your own mistake.  

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Colin L

[nsxguy]

14 hours ago, Girevik said:

For the sake of clarification, look at it this way.  You've laid up to the water on a hole with a forced carry.  you're right at the edge, so either carry the water or hit again from where you are (no drop zone).  You hit a ball that you see splash it the water, but think there is a chance it may have skipped to safety on the other side.  However you didn't see it land on the other side and can't be sure. 

 

Are you allowed to take a provisional for a ball that might be safe on the other side, or might be at the bottom of the pond?  As I read the rule, that i fs not an allowable reason for a provisional (not that I knew that at the time).  However, the spirit of the rule it to allow you to hit provisional to keep you from having to walk back to your current position should the ball not be found.

 

Well, while I'm a bit confused (still) about your "clarification", the appropriate text is right there, in the front of Rule 18.3.

 

18.3 Provisional Ball

a. When Provisional Ball Is Allowed

If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 14.6).

For a ball that might be lost, this applies:

• When the original ball has not been found and identified and is not yet lost, and

• When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course.

[Girevik]

10 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

 

From your description, one question as to  whether a provisional can be played in this situation is easily answered. .  18.3a states if the player is aware the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed....  The ball might have skipped over the water and be lying in the general area and so a provisional in those terms is allowed.    The next question is, if it is in the general area, might it be lost?   That's  not clear, but if the players believed that was a possibility, they were entitled to play the provisional.

There were two options; either the ball was in the water (hazard), or had skipped out of the water and was safely in play.  So based on the rule that is NOT case where a provisional could be played, correct?  They would have had to drive up and look for the ball and go back if they couldn't find it.

[Halebopp]

26 minutes ago, Girevik said:

There were two options; either the ball was in the water (hazard), or had skipped out of the water and was safely in play.  So based on the rule that is NOT case where a provisional could be played, correct?  They would have had to drive up and look for the ball and go back if they couldn't find it.

 

Yes, if the only place in which the ball could've been lost was the Penalty Area, there was no right to play a provisional ball. Therefore the second ball played from that spot would've been the ball in play under Stroke and Distance relief.

[Schulzmc]

53 minutes ago, Girevik said:

There were two options; either the ball was in the water (hazard), or had skipped out of the water and was safely in play.  So based on the rule that is NOT case where a provisional could be played, correct?  They would have had to drive up and look for the ball and go back if they couldn't find it.

Just because the ball was "safely in play" does not mean you know for certain that it can be found. It could have skipped out of the water and then under a leaf, in long grass outside the hazard, etc. What others in this thread are trying to say is that if there is a chance the ball is not in the hazard but in the general area, then there is at least a chance it could be lost and a provisional may be played.

 

[nsxguy]

50 minutes ago, Girevik said:

There were two options; either the ball was in the water (hazard), or had skipped out of the water and was safely in play.  So based on the rule that is NOT case where a provisional could be played, correct?  They would have had to drive up and look for the ball and go back if they couldn't find it.

 

Once again, I find the question unclear. But goodness, I posted the applicable rule and bolded the applicable parts so I don't understand the confusion.

 

MIGHT it be outside of the PA in the GA on the other side ???

 

If the answer is YES, you may hit a provisional.

[Halebopp]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Once again, I find the question unclear. But goodness, I posted the applicable rule and bolded the applicable parts so I don't understand the confusion.

 

MIGHT it be outside of the PA in the GA on the other side ???

 

If the answer is YES, you may hit a provisional.

 

You're missing essential parts of the rule.

 

Quote

 

If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 14.6).

...

But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed and a ball played from where the previous stroke was made becomes the player’s ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 18.1).

 

 

[Schulzmc]

5 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

You're missing essential parts of the rule.

 

 

You didn't post the most important part. You are allowed to play a provisional:

 

• When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course.

 

Since the OP's opponents thought the ball could have skipped out of the penalty area, then the "also" part applies. It might have been lost outside the penalty area.

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

You're missing essential parts of the rule.

 

 

 

You say I'm missing something and post the rule.

 

What am I missing ?

 

Thanks

[Halebopp]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

You say I'm missing something and post the rule.

 

What am I missing ?

 

Thanks

 

I quoted the two parts you were ignoring. You said that a player is allowed to play a provisional ball if the original ball could be in the General Area on the other side. That is not enough of a reason to play a provisional ball, as explained in the parts of the rule I quoted.

[sui generis]

9 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course.

 

never mind

Edited October 17, 2022 by sui generis

[Schulzmc]

Just now, Halebopp said:

 

I quoted the two parts you were ignoring. You said that a player is allowed to play a provisional ball if the original ball could be in the General Area on the other side. That is not enough of a reason to play a provisional ball, as explained in the parts of the rule I quoted.

 

I disagree. If the ball could be in the general area on the other side of the penalty area, and it is not visible from where you hit your shot, it might be lost and a provisional is allowed.

[Halebopp]

8 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

You didn't post the most important part. You are allowed to play a provisional:

 

• When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course.

 

Since the OP's opponents thought the ball could have skipped out of the penalty area, then the "also" part applies. It might have been lost outside the penalty area.

 

Nsxguy claimed you're allowed to play a provisional ball every time the ball might have come to rest on the other side of a PA. Such a statement is simply not true, as shown by the parts of the rule I quoted above.

[Schulzmc]

2 minutes ago, sui generis said:

 

Where are these words from?

Rules of Golf - 18.3a second bullet

 

[Schulzmc]

1 minute ago, Halebopp said:

 

Nsxguy claimed you're allowed to play a provisional ball every time the ball might have come to rest on the other side of a PA. Such a statement is simply not true, as shown by the parts of the rule I quoted above.

Unless the ball is visible, Nsxguy is right. It might be lost, and a provisional is allowed.

 

[Halebopp]

4 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

 

I disagree. If the ball could be in the general area on the other side of the penalty area, and it is not visible from where you hit your shot, it might be lost and a provisional is allowed.

 

Feel free to disagree with me and the Rules of Golf. But now you're bringing up a completely different situation as to what I was responding.

 

Anyway, your argument is wrong. Merely not seeing your ball is not necessarily enough of a reason to play a provisional ball. If you're playing on a course you're familiar with and know it's not possible to lose the ball outside of a PA or for it to go OB, you wouldn't be allowed to play a provisional ball even though you can't see your ball at rest.

[Schulzmc]

2 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

Feel free to disagree with me and the Rules of Golf. But now you're bringing up a completely different situation as to what I was responding.

 

I do disagree with you. I do not disagree with the Rules of Golf.

 

2 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

Anyway, your argument is wrong. Merely not seeing your ball is not necessarily enough of a reason to play a provisional ball. If you're playing on a course you're familiar with and know it's not possible to lose the ball outside of a PA or for it to go OB, you wouldn't be allowed to play a provisional ball even though you can't see your ball at rest.

 

Under the Rules of Golf a player has broad discretion to play a provisional, if they believe their ball "might" be lost. It is hard to imagine a situation where you cannot see your ball at rest and yet "know it is not possible to lose the ball."

 

I started another thread so we can further this discussion.

[QEight]

3 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

Anyway, your argument is wrong. Merely not seeing your ball is not necessarily enough of a reason to play a provisional ball. If you're playing on a course you're familiar with and know it's not possible to lose the ball outside of a PA or for it to go OB, you wouldn't be allowed to play a provisional ball even though you can't see your ball at rest.

 

Same thing as many fairways have valleys and mounds which may obstruct your view of ball. But you are not allowed to hit a provisional based just on "I do not see the ball".

[nsxguy]

27 minutes ago, Halebopp said:

 

Nsxguy claimed you're allowed to play a provisional ball every time the ball might have come to rest on the other side of a PA. Such a statement is simply not true, as shown by the parts of the rule I quoted above.

 

Well, that's not exactly what I claimed - but I guess it's close enough.

 

You just posted

 

"But if the player is aware that the only possible place the original ball could be lost is in a penalty area, a provisional ball is not allowed".

 

That is not the case being discussed and when the ball skips toward the far end of the PA and nobody see it stop IN the PA, your statement/rule doesn't apply.

 

I followed the Rule, as I posted earlier  -

" 18.3 Provisional Ball
a. When Provisional Ball Is Allowed

If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally under penalty of stroke and distance (see Rule 14.6).

 

For a ball that might be lost, this applies:

    When the original ball has not been found and identified and is not yet lost, and

    When a ball might be lost in a penalty area but also might be lost somewhere else on the course.

 

Somehow I figure I'm missing something (else) but obviously I can't see it.

[Halebopp]

@nsxguy

@Schulzmc

 

Let's go over this once more. nsx said:

 

Quote

 

MIGHT it be outside of the PA in the GA on the other side ???

 

If the answer is YES, you may hit a provisional.

 

 

Nsx's comment implies a player is allowed to play a provisional ball every time a ball might have come to rest in the General Area. I replied that nsx is missing essential parts of the rule, which I quoted above. Players need a valid reason, the possibility of a ball being lost outside of a PA or for it to be OB, to play a provisional ball.

 

After that schultz came up with a completely different argument about a ball being possibly lost outside of a PA. That's an issue I haven't even touched in this thread. The only thing I've commented on is that particular piece written by nsx. Either you're trying to put words in my mouth or you don't understand the rule.

 

But I have other things to do now, so I bid you farewell for now.

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, Girevik said:

There were two options; either the ball was in the water (hazard), or had skipped out of the water and was safely in play.  So based on the rule that is NOT case where a provisional could be played, correct?  They would have had to drive up and look for the ball and go back if they couldn't find it.

Two conditions have to be met for the player to be allowed to play a provisional:

• the ball  is not known to be in the penalty area (that is to say it might be in it or  outside it);
• if that condition is met,  there is a possibility that the ball is lost or out of bounds.

 

From your description, the first condition is met.   Provided  the player thinks his ball might, if outside the penalty area,  be lost, he is entitled to play a provisional.  If on the other hand,  he knew or accepted being told that his ball would undoubtedly be found  given the nature of the ground outside the penalty area he would not be allowed a provisional ball.  Bear in mind that the player's decision is made on the basis of what he sees from where he plays his shot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Colin L