Ball at rest, in rough, moves. Player v nearby.

[jobin]

So, both Charlie and I are in the rough, but I am about 15 yrd to his back and cannot see the ball nor lie. But Charlie chooses a club and stands next to ball with club hanging down. Rough is grass about 4-6 inches tall.

 

I'm waiting for Charlie to hit his ball when he hollers out 'the ball moved'.  He then asks what he should do.  I tell him, IMO, to replace the ball and add one stroke penalty.  He says he never 'addressed' the ball and it moved without any action on his  part.  I, more or less, told him i did not think that made any difference in this case, since he was next to his ball with club in hand.  IMO, he was 'deemed' to cause the ball movement.

 

He moaned.  Late, I did look up, as best as possible, whether i was correct.  Turns out that now i am not so certain coz the word 'address' requires the club to touch the ground and Charlie's club did not.  He may have touched one blade of grass, which in a cascading effect, let the ball move off a nest of grass, etc.

 

So, plz offer your opinion.  Seems a bit unclear to me, at least open to question on the course.

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, jobin said:

So, both Charlie and I are in the rough, but I am about 15 yrd to his back and cannot see the ball nor lie. But Charlie chooses a club and stands next to ball with club hanging down. Rough is grass about 4-6 inches tall.

 

I'm waiting for Charlie to hit his ball when he hollers out 'the ball moved'.  He then asks what he should do.  I tell him, IMO, to replace the ball and add one stroke penalty.  He says he never 'addressed' the ball and it moved without any action on his  part.  I, more or less, told him i did not think that made any difference in this case, since he was next to his ball with club in hand.  IMO, he was 'deemed' to cause the ball movement.

 

He moaned.  Late, I did look up, as best as possible, whether i was correct.  Turns out that now i am not so certain coz the word 'address' requires the club to touch the ground and Charlie's club did not.  He may have touched one blade of grass, which in a cascading effect, let the ball move off a nest of grass, etc.

 

So, plz offer your opinion.  Seems a bit unclear to me, at least open to question on the course.

 

9.2(b)2

(2) “Known or Virtually Certain” Standard for Deciding What Caused Ball to Move.

• The player, the opponent or an outside influence is treated as having caused the ball to move only if it is known or virtually certain to be the cause.

• If it is not known or virtually certain that at least one of these was the cause, the ball is treated as having been moved by natural forces.

In applying this standard, all reasonably available information must be considered, which means all information the player knows or can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonably delaying play.

 

 

Sounds like the ball moved on its own, likely after being held up by a small/light layer of the grass and fell under its own weight.

 

So if the player is SURE he did nothing that could have moved it, he's good to go. Leave it where it ended up and play on.

 

[rogolf]

It's also useful to check the definition of "moved" in the Rule book.

[sui generis]

43 minutes ago, jobin said:

word 'address' requires the club to touch the ground

 "Address" does not appear in the Definitions of the 2019 Rules. You may be thinking of pre-2019. 

[Augster]

The ball was likely moved by natural forces if the player says he didn’t do anything to move it. If it moved by natural forces, on its own, play it as it lies. No penalty. 
 

If the player caused it to move (must be KVC) 1 PS and replace. 
 

“Address” was removed in 2019 just to avoid discussions like you had. Either he caused it to move or he didn’t. No “address” needed. 

[davep043]

11 hours ago, jobin said:

He moaned.  Late, I did look up, as best as possible, whether i was correct.  Turns out that now i am not so certain coz the word 'address' requires the club to touch the ground and Charlie's club did not.  He may have touched one blade of grass, which in a cascading effect, let the ball move off a nest of grass, etc.

It is generally a good idea to post which rule you read.  As others have said, you seem to be referring to a previous version of the Rules, not the current version.  Under the current rules, it must be Known or Virtually Certain that the player (or Opponent or Outside Influence) caused the ball to move for him to be penalized, otherwise it is treated as if it was moved by Natural Forces.

Edited October 18, 2022 by davep043