New AMG Shallowing Video - Wow...

[Krt22]

Milo is a 2D guy living in a 3D world. When you misinterpret the data, then the data is wrong lol

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cod0TQ5j9u1/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[ALIF]

2 hours ago, MPStrat said:

This was a good video. Nothing we haven’t seen before. The comments section is a circus lol

 

The intentional bend switching concept is head scratching to me. AMG said something that is extremely unfashionable that I loved. “If you turn around a stable spine angle the bends take care of themselves” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard on here that you can’t do that. You have to go into left bend, then left bend with thoracic extension and then front bend and then right bend. How about just turn with an inclination? 
 

in Milo’s defense, a teacher who used to frequent here told me the same that GEARS and some other 3d systems have issues differentiating spine bends and extension with rotation. Solomon might be able to correct me on that.

 

Like the AMG guy said, the systems don’t have problems differentiating the data, it’s the people looking at the data. He showed in his video that there is extension and flexion data and side bend data. They are totally different numbers. That’s why Milo was off by 45°.

[Nels55]

I wonder if Milo will gain from this little internet exchange that he got himself involved in?  More subscribers and more lessons possibly?  His teaching is rather straight forward and fairly easily understood which makes it appealing for a lot of folks. 

 

At any rate I will be interested in watching his rebuttal video assuming he does one.

 

[MPStrat]

13 minutes ago, ALIF said:

Like the AMG guy said, the systems don’t have problems differentiating the data, it’s the people looking at the data. He showed in his video that there is extension and flexion data and side bend data. They are totally different numbers. That’s why Milo was off by 45°.

As I understand it, it is more of hardware limitation. Again I’m not an expert on these things, I’m just repeating what I was told by someone who is respected on this board.  Solomon might be able to tell us more or that what I was told is inaccurate. 

[rondo01]

3 hours ago, Trippels said:

"Uses Nelly model to demonstrate"

 

Well I'm sold, no bouncing into side bend for me

big dick energy putting captures of Dana vs Nelly up. Quite a show!

[GolfTurkey]

3 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Milo is a 2D guy living in a 3D world. When you misinterpret the data, then the data is wrong lol

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cod0TQ5j9u1/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

 

Crinkles on shirts are all the data he needs.

[Hilts1969]

15 minutes ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Crinkles on shirts are all the data he needs.

I purposely scrunch up my shirt before I play. Adds 30 yards:-)

 

Anyhow some people are looking silly today.(coaches and posters) You learn a lot about people from their reactions to being wrong. Will they

 

Double down and look very silly

Hide 

Pretend it was just a misunderstanding 

Hold their hands up.

[GolfTurkey]

45 minutes ago, Hilts1969 said:

I purposely scrunch up my shirt before I play. Adds 30 yards:-)

 

Anyhow some people are looking silly today.(coaches and posters) You learn a lot about people from their reactions to being wrong. Will they

 

Double down and look very silly

Hide 

Pretend it was just a misunderstanding 

Hold their hands up.

 

And unfortunately the double down is all too common, which leads to this weird cult-like behaviour we see in the golf instruction world.

 

We have Instructors who are good but cannot / will not admit when they're wrong (everyone gets stuff wrong sometimes*), and then they go down ever more ridiculous rabbit holes trying to prove themselves correct.

 

Their disciples who have anointed them as infallible swing gurus and the only person in the world who understands the golf swing ,go down an equally ridiculous rabbit hole and start flinging feces at anyone who questions their idol.

 

The golf instruction industry is plenty big enough for people to share their knowledge, learn from others, admit when they're wrong and move along.

 

*Pepper excepted

[Deadaimz]

My eyes do not see any crazy side bends in transition. 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Deadaimz

[Deadaimz]

 

[kowalgolf]

I would like to see the AMG guys take Monte's Plane and Release by feel and analyze this drill either standing up or Monte hitting balls from his knees. I'm a believer in this drill for hacks like me and very nerdy. I've strayed or chased that rabbit down the hole with 100's of thoughts and feels and even the Hackmotion sensor. I wish I was a puzzle with 10 pcs vs. a 500 piece puzzle.

[PracticeSwinger]

7 hours ago, MPStrat said:

As I understand it, it is more of hardware limitation. Again I’m not an expert on these things, I’m just repeating what I was told by someone who is respected on this board.  Solomon might be able to tell us more or that what I was told is inaccurate. 

There maybe hardware limitations that for sure… but Milo was off 45* in his own video because he was using the forward / backward bend lines graph to explain the left / right side bend lines… and when AMG points it out - he doubles down with 2D images of wrinkled shirts… let’s see where this goes - I’ll grab my popcorn

 

edit to add the photo - at least he pointed what he wanted to do - explained it clearly on thoracic bend… that’s fair enough

Edited February 10, 2023 by MtlJayMan

[Ex Blade User]

8 hours ago, MPStrat said:

It’s fair, though. This is the kind of thing we are in desperate need of. I could do without the catty back and forth, but I think it’s great that there is legitimate public debate. This is still mostly golf nerd stuff, but once there is a common understanding of what happens and when, then we can debate the art and science of teaching it. 

They’re talking about the same thing. Obviously there’s side bending in the swing. Some people need to train it. It’s all semantics really in the second video. When is transition? Etc. I mean it’s kind of paralysis by analysis and he AMG Guys are just being petty like they were with gankas. Real question, what tour pros have they coached? And whenever they demonstrate something, they look like a stalled amateur 

[Ex Blade User]

4 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

 

Crinkles on shirts are all the data he needs.

It’s all Snead and hogan needed lol

[iceman1118]

3 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

They’re talking about the same thing. Obviously there’s side bending in the swing. Some people need to train it. It’s all semantics really in the second video. When is transition? Etc. I mean it’s kind of paralysis by analysis and he AMG Guys are just being petty like they were with gankas. Real question, what tour pros have they coached? And whenever they demonstrate something, they look like a stalled amateur 

I haven’t made one comment in this thread because it is all way above my pay grade, however you are 100% correct. AMG guys demonstrating their stuff look like stalled pivot arm thrusters. When Milo hits driver, he looks athletic and bombs it. Not sure what that means for all this “data”, but can’t take away from the fact that Milo is a freak of nature. Same with Monte when he demonstrates. Bombs it and looks like a tour pro moving. 
 

I think a lot of this also boils down to athleticism. Some people move better than others as a God given gift. Monte and Milo just look and move like athletes. No offense to Shaun Webb and Mike Granato,  but they just don’t strike me as athletes. Dustin Johnson is an athlete. Great athletic move. Find a non coordinated unathletic person and their swing (or really anything they do) and they look like an unfolding lawn chair. 

[PracticeSwinger]

16 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

It’s all Snead and hogan needed lol

Old farts that wouldn't even sniff Rory drives...

(sarcasm, in case it's needed)

[GoGoErky]

7 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I wonder if Milo will gain from this little internet exchange that he got himself involved in?  More subscribers and more lessons possibly?  His teaching is rather straight forward and fairly easily understood which makes it appealing for a lot of folks. 

 

At any rate I will be interested in watching his rebuttal video assuming he does one.

 

Having been a part of his membership site and watching people post their videos doing his foundation drills, it’s not that easy. I was there for 5 or 6 months. Despite him and Henry demonstrating how to do the drills and tons of other videos, there were several people whose swing was the exact same over that period of time despite doing drills and working on their swing almost daily. 
 

As a member you get free swing analysis from Milo, Henry fall or Ed lasater. So it’s not like they are doing anything in a vacuum, also as a member you are in the CoachNow group which is people post their videos do doing drills, their swings and the coaches would respond to most videos with their feedback, and still swings and how they performed drills looked the same month after month.

 

Maybe for some in person with Milo makes it easy but not so much for many going thru his online membership

[PracticeSwinger]

24 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

They’re talking about the same thing. Obviously there’s side bending in the swing. Some people need to train it. It’s all semantics really in the second video. When is transition? Etc. I mean it’s kind of paralysis by analysis and he AMG Guys are just being petty like they were with gankas. Real question, what tour pros have they coached? And whenever they demonstrate something, they look like a stalled amateur 

AMG were really annoyed with Milo's reaction to their first video - they jumped on the occasion since he used Gears in his rebbutal and misinterpreted, used the wrong graphs... so they went the toddler's way and 'wanted to educate' while just jumping on him... they'd might be better off just being the data/information guys, saying what is happening and not trying to show it (even though that's what people were complaining about in the last few years - all data and no teaching on their part)

[Ex Blade User]

24 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

AMG were really annoyed with Milo's reaction to their first video - they jumped on the occasion since he used Gears in his rebbutal and misinterpreted, used the wrong graphs... so they went the toddler's way and 'wanted to educate' while just jumping on him... they'd might be better off just being the data/information guys, saying what is happening and not trying to show it (even though that's what people were complaining about in the last few years - all data and no teaching on their part)

I agree. Honestly it seemed Milo was just showing what he thinks about the swing, it obviously works for him not sure if it was a thinly veiled stab at AMG but then their “rebuttal” is like NAS calling out jay z in “Ether” (although not as brutal or good lol). they did that with gankas as well but to be fair he’s like a caricature of himself these days. His swing looks nothing like any tour pro now and wears so many training aids it’s ridiculous  

 

the pivot driven guys are trying to take the focus away from the arms while the AMG guys are focusing on the arms. The arms still do the same things in either swing as does the body generally in elite swings so not sure why the juvenile stuff. 
 

to me the AMG guys always come across smug even though they give good info. It’s a turnoff 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Ex Blade User

[Rdailey9108]

It all comes down to real vs feel. Milo demonstrates feels that get his players in a good position. I'd venture to guess that him and AMG believe a lot of the same thing about the golf swing. AMG shows what is actually happening with numbers and 3d modeling. They try to simplify the swing by not trying to get super open or look like JN. I'd be interested to see one of Milo's student or even Milo himself get on GEARs. 

[PracticeSwinger]

6 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

I agree. Honestly it seemed Milo was just showing what he thinks about the swing, it obviously works for him not sure if it was a thinly veiled stab at AMG but then their “rebuttal” is like NAS calling out jay z in “Ether” (although not as brutal or good lol). they did that with gankas as well but to be fair he’s like a caricature of himself these days. His swing looks nothing like any tour pro now and wears so many training aids it’s ridiculous  

I'm still waiting for Wolff to get on the range at an event wearing crocs, the gbox, gsnap, gwhathaveyou - backstrokes, spins, and jump out - got that you G hommies?!

[iceman1118]

7 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

to me the AMG guys always come across smug even though they give good info. It’s a turnoff 

Correct. Machine AI says this is what happens so it must be true!

 

Beyond me how Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, Palmer, Trevino, Player and some guy named Woods all figured it out based on feels, practice, and experience. In my opinion that’s what Milo is doing. Doesn’t make him right or wrong. And it doesn’t make AMG less smug. 

[Nels55]

28 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Having been a part of his membership site and watching people post their videos doing his foundation drills, it’s not that easy. I was there for 5 or 6 months. Despite him and Henry demonstrating how to do the drills and tons of other videos, there were several people whose swing was the exact same over that period of time despite doing drills and working on their swing almost daily. 
 

As a member you get free swing analysis from Milo, Henry fall or Ed lasater. So it’s not like they are doing anything in a vacuum, also as a member you are in the CoachNow group which is people post their videos do doing drills, their swings and the coaches would respond to most videos with their feedback, and still swings and how they performed drills looked the same month after month.

 

Maybe for some in person with Milo makes it easy but not so much for many going thru his online membership

 

Great info on Milo's teaching, i was wondering about that.  LOL I did not mean to say that Milo's teaching was easy to implement, I was more thinking along the lines of easy to conceptualize.  When he demos the swing it looks like it should be easy to do.

 

I think that it is quite possible that a lot of golfers simply cannot do Milo's swing because they are upper core golfers and Milo teaches a lower core system.  Upper core players want to stand up and turn the shoulders flat while the arms go up and down very much opposite of Milo's teaching.

[Nels55]

Here is Milo's late night video, I guess in response to the AMG video.  He does say that his swing is his preference.  That is something that method guys seem to cling to saying that the way that they swing is the one best way for everyone to swing. 

[PracticeSwinger]

12 minutes ago, Rdailey9108 said:

It all comes down to real vs feel. Milo demonstrates feels that get his players in a good position. I'd venture to guess that him and AMG believe a lot of the same thing about the golf swing. AMG shows what is actually happening with numbers and 3d modeling. They try to simplify the swing by not trying to get super open or look like JN. I'd be interested to see one of Milo's student or even Milo himself get on GEARs. 

 

5 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

Correct. Machine AI says this is what happens so it must be true!

 

Beyond me how Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, Palmer, Trevino, Player and some guy named Woods all figured it out based on feels, practice, and experience. In my opinion that’s what Milo is doing. Doesn’t make him right or wrong. And it doesn’t make AMG less smug. 

 

100%... AMG comes off as the data bullies here; they do have the correct info on what's happening though... and Milo teaches the feeling that you're going into right side bend, it's not a conscious crunch of the oblique on the right side that would have your trail shoulder dropping too much, it's your lead hip (left side of the sacrum) pushing back that creates the thoracic / spine bend since you're forward bent also... they're talking past each other, but they're not that far off each other in my opinion

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

 

Great info on Milo's teaching, i was wondering about that.  LOL I did not mean to say that Milo's teaching was easy to implement, I was more thinking along the lines of easy to conceptualize.  When he demos the swing it looks like it should be easy to do.

 

I think that it is quite possible that a lot of golfers simply cannot do Milo's swing because they are upper core golfers and Milo teaches a lower core system.  Upper core players want to stand up and turn the shoulders flat while the arms go up and down very much opposite of Milo's teaching.

Milo shares a lot of the same thoughts as GG from what I have seen in his videos and his membership course. The course is setup really well and imo more organized and segmented than GGs online membership course. He does a good job of breaking down what he wants the student to do with each drill, but from what I’ve seen is some have struggle understanding and implanting movements. Even with GGs course there were many that struggled to do the drills and movements. He posted videos at time on his social media about the mistakes he was seeing those in the course making.

 

Imo it comes down to what the student can do. Even with Monte’s stuff which is pretty easy Imo, we see some trying to make the moves and not doing them correctly due to understanding of the concept or maybe some physical limitation. 
 

I haven’t swung a club in months but if I grab one in the house to do some drills it’s either something from Monte or the stock drill from Dan 

Edited February 10, 2023 by GoGoErky

[MonteScheinblum]

Truth be told…This was all started by Milo.  I posted the original AMG video on the right elbow unfolding causing the shallowing on my Instagram.  Milo made a pretty snide comment that AMG and I don’t understand what’s happening.  

[iceman1118]

7 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Truth be told…This was all started by Milo.  I posted the original AMG video on the right elbow unfolding causing the shallowing on my Instagram.  Milo made a pretty snide comment that AMG and I don’t understand what’s happening.  

To be clear, I am not choosing sides here. Like I said earlier this is above my pay grade. However, this is correct. Not that I’m snooping on people’s IG and their comment section or anything and following all of this from the start

[Soloman1]

Not all data is measured, they can be derived by algorithms based on the anthropomorphic body type of the individual and the normal ranges of motion of humans. But not everyone is “normal.” You can model what the spine segments are doing by folding in known motions of the spine in all dimensions and ranges.

 

Most systems are pretty darn close to each other, but people are not.

 

Graphs can make the eyes of some people roll back in their heads. I’m not going to bust someone’s chops about that. That’s why skeletal parts can be removed from the avatar in my system so you can isolate and see the movements of the spine.

 

These are teaching tools, not research-grade tools.

[MonteScheinblum]

11 minutes ago, iceman1118 said:

To be clear, I am not choosing sides here. Like I said earlier this is above my pay grade. However, this is correct. Not that I’m snooping on people’s IG and their comment section or anything and following all of this from the start

My comment wasn’t directed at you, just in general.

 

In this whole tiff I obviously am good friends with the AMG guys and have similar ideas.

 

However, I am also friends with GG and he and I agree we aren’t that far off in what we want players to do and we have no beef.

 

I don’t know Milo.  We disagree and that’s ok.  I was a bit put off that he actually made his comment on my IG, but I’ve criticized the ideas of other instructors, so it would be hypocritical of me to say he did something wrong.  I criticize Bender and disagree with things he teaches, I just od t do it on his channel.
 

Just trying to put all of the facts out there of what’s transpired.