Pronation/supination at transition

[GungHoGolf]

6 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

If this is the case then that would mean that some peoples lead forearms/shoulder point a lot more to the right at impact (or less rotated back than at address), see swing option B.

how do they not block it if there lead arm is pointing to the right (less rotated than address) at impact?

 

There are multiple ways to square the face - since address and impact don’t have the same hand position with good players, they typically employ a combination of lead forearm supination, lead wrist flexion, and body rotation. 

[glk]

 

 

These are lead and trail wrist (including forearm data) from a tyler presentation back in 2018 - the entire video is on his pay site and titled arm movements of elite golfers.     It is more on the line of observational rather than analytic (which is what most of the golf instructor stuff is) and so it represents the more "conventional" pattern seen.    He shows both lead and trail wrist movements, ulnar/radial, flex/ext,and sup/pro.     These measurements are for forearm pronation and supination and not "global rotation".     Can see how both arms end up supinating prior to impact with the trail wrist moving toward pronation just before impact.    As Tyler has often said, the exact numbers are typically not the important part but rather the overall pattern.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by glk

[Golfbeat]

Tylers web site is by far the most comprehensive and science based (but still practical) of any of the sites out there. 

[golferdude54]

The wrist is the last thing you should be worrying about. Ever heard of the kinematic sequence? It doesn't go wrist first, you know. It goes feet, knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, then wrists. If anything, focusing on trail elbow internal rotation in transition will make a better change faster than wrist pronation ever will.

[Strikeleopard54]

14 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

I’m pretty sure that “global” means any body movement that causes rotation of the wrist in 3D space. 

so the global rotation on some of the hm graphs (not Tyler’s I get they r different now) shows the forearm is pointed to the right at impact in 3D space, if that’s what global rotation is. I know you’ve said there’s multiple ways to square the face but if we’re talking about the forearm in 3D space then It doesn’t matter what your body does rotationally , or how much you flex or extend wrist, if your lead forearm is less rotated in 3D space at impact than address, then the face will be WIDE open.

 

does anyone disagree with the final bit, genuinely hope I am wrong and would like to know how. This is killing me.

[Golfbeat]

7 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

so the global rotation on some of the hm graphs (not Tyler’s I get they r different now) shows the forearm is pointed to the right at impact in 3D space, if that’s what global rotation is. I know you’ve said there’s multiple ways to square the face but if we’re talking about the forearm in 3D space then It doesn’t matter what your body does rotationally , or how much you flex or extend wrist, if your lead forearm is less rotated in 3D space at impact than address, then the face will be WIDE open.

 

does anyone disagree with the final bit, genuinely hope I am wrong and would like to know how. This is killing me.

 

Correct. Three ways to square the club face then: 1. stand up and flip or 2. motorcycle/ supinate, stay in posture and rotate or 3. any combination of those.

[GungHoGolf]

9 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

if we’re talking about the forearm in 3D space then It doesn’t matter what your body does rotationally , or how much you flex or extend wrist, if your lead forearm is less rotated in 3D space at impact than address, then the face will be WIDE open.

 

Lead wrist flexion can close the face independent from forearm rotation - it’s not unusual to see HM graphs from pros where impact forearm rotation is 20° open compared to address. See here for an example. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[Soloman1]

In 3D, local is an orientation of one segment based on an origin. Think of a vector triad of the isolated movement of the wrist segment only, or to another segment. One segment, let’s say hand, can be viewed from the perspective of the forearm.

 

 

The global reference is based on the origin of the entire system or “universe.” The forearm is moving within the global perspective, so the hand movement to the global origin is different than only local movement.

 

Movement of only the wrist is fuzzy because it doesn’t happen in isolation. If the equipment has limited measurements, marketing gobblygook and “analysis” is molded to fit within the limited information. The old hammer and everything is a nail thing.

 

Terms like kinematic sequence came about as a marketing term because that was the only data the equipment measured, not the other way around.

 

In my experience, I’ve never seen a tour-level coach or instructor fluent in complete body movements use the measurement of isolated wrist movement in any way, other than for a paid endorsement.

 

There are so many things moving. Some are cause and some are effect. Even the player’s grip affects release pattern and release is two wrists, not one, and forearms, and, and, and…

 

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Soloman1

[Strikeleopard54]

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

 

Lead wrist flexion can close the face independent from forearm rotation - it’s not unusual to see HM graphs from pros where impact forearm rotation is 20° open compared to address. See here for an example. 

Lead wrist flexion can’t close the face independent of forearm rotation. It’s a myth. Try with a club. Rotate your forearm clockwise, then flex the wrist without letting the forearm move in 3D space. The club will de-loft sure, but it won’t close the face unless the forearm moves in space, which it normally does automatically when we bow the wrist.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[Strikeleopard54]

53 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

In 3D, local is an orientation of one segment based on an origin. Think of a vector triad of the isolated movement of the wrist segment only, or to another segment. One segment, let’s say hand, can be viewed from the perspective of the forearm.

 

 

The global reference is based on the origin of the entire system or “universe.” The forearm is moving within the global perspective, so the hand movement to the global origin is different than only local movement.

 

Movement of only the wrist is fuzzy because it doesn’t happen in isolation. If the equipment has limited measurements, marketing gobblygook and “analysis” is molded to fit within the limited information. The old hammer and everything is a nail thing.

 

Terms like kinematic sequence came about as a marketing term because that was the only data the equipment measured, not the other way around.

 

In my experience, I’ve never seen a tour-level coach or instructor fluent in complete body movements use the measurement of isolated wrist movement in any way, other than for a paid endorsement.

 

There are so many things moving. Some are cause and some are effect. Even the player’s grip affects release pattern and release is two wrists, not one, and forearms, and, and, and…

 

 

Okay so how can the face not be open when the lead forearm is rotated clockwise in 3D space at impact. 

[Strikeleopard54]

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

it’s not unusual to see HM graphs from pros where impact forearm rotation is 20° open compared to address

Yeh those graphs are what are confusing. Genuinely don’t get how it can be possible to not have an wide open face when the forearm is rotated in 3D space. Tyler’s graphs make sense if they are actually measuring true rotation, because the forearm could be moved by the rotation of the body. But the hm global rotation graphs don’t make sense.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[Strikeleopard54]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

release is two wrists, not one, and forearms,

Can the right forearm rotating close the face without causing the left to rotate. I was under the impression that the right and left mirrored each other but I think I’m wrong. Are the pros such whose left forearms are not getting back to address in 3D space , is it likely the right forearm rotating that closes the face back up?

[Soloman1]

Ulnar deviation

[Soloman1]

It depends on the 3D orientation at address, or is it a calibrated zero? 20* open from where? That’s a limitation of 3DOF systems. Depending on ball position, club, etc., the forearm can start in different orientations at address. And we start in extension, not neutral or in flexion.

Golf is too hard.

[Strikeleopard54]

24 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

Ulnar deviation

What about it?

[Strikeleopard54]

2 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

It depends on the 3D orientation at address, or is it a calibrated zero? 20* open from where? That’s a limitation of 3DOF systems. Depending on ball position, club, etc., the forearm can start in different orientations at address. And we start in extension, not neutral or in flexion.

Golf is too hard.

Yes it’s calibrated at 0.  20 degrees open from adress

Edited May 13, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[Soloman1]

We’re in extension at address for any ball position other than directly inline with shoulder, and people rotate the forearm when they go into either extension or flexion. It’s unnatural to go to either without forearm rotation.

 

I don’t understand what the question or point is. Help me out.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Soloman1

[Strikeleopard54]

10 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

And rotated 20* at impact? What was it at address?

 

How was the face aligned at address and at impact?

20* at impact (some even up to 40*!), 0 at adress

face square at impact and square at address 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[Soloman1]

10 minutes ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

20* at impact (some even up to 40*!), 0 at adress

face square at impact and square at address 

 

This is why I no confidence in gadgets.

[Strikeleopard54]

34 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

I don’t understand what the question or point is. Help me out.

The Q is

how can the face be square if the lead forearm is 20*(or even up to 40*) open than at impact?

body rotation is irrelevant as is global rotation. Flexion doesn’t close the face without the forearm rotating. Only delofts.

so how is it possible.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[Soloman1]

27 minutes ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

The Q is

how can the face be square if the lead forearm is 20*(or even up to 40*) open than at impact?

 

Because the forearm wasn't zero or neutral at address. There is no information on the website about forearm rotation, probably for a reason.

 

27 minutes ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

body rotation is irrelevant as is global rotation. Flexion doesn’t close the face without the forearm rotating. Only delofts.

so how is it possible.

 

Test it. Hit five, 50 yard 7-irons in extension at impact, then five more in flexion.

 

Sorry, that's all I got for this!

[Strikeleopard54]

Ok I get you’ve tapped out but if anyone else can save me, 

It does start at 0, just look at the graphs

[glk]

3 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

Lead wrist flexion can’t close the face independent of forearm rotation. It’s a myth. Try with a club. Rotate your forearm clockwise, then flex the wrist without letting the forearm move in 3D space. The club will de-loft sure, but it won’t close the face unless the forearm moves in space, which it normally does automatically when we bow the wrist.

don't know how you do flexion but i can most certainly flex (bow) and close the face or extend and open the face without any forearm motion

 

Tyler demos

 

[Strikeleopard54]

20 minutes ago, glk said:

don't know how you do flexion but i can most certainly flex (bow) and close the face or extend and open the face without any forearm motion

 

Tyler demos

 

I see what you’re saying, 

 

but if you rotate your lead forearm open and it stays there, the face opens. I’m asking how do you get the face square with an open lead forearm. How would Flexing the lead wrist achieve this?

if your lead forearm is open in space, doesn’t matter how flexed the lead wrist is. The face will be open.

[Strikeleopard54]

3 minutes ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

I see what you’re saying, 

 

but if you rotate your lead forearm open and it stays there, the face opens. I’m asking how do you get the face square with an open lead forearm. How would Flexing the lead wrist achieve this?

if your lead forearm is open in space at impact, doesn’t matter how flexed the lead wrist is. The face will be open.

 

[glk]

6 minutes ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

I see what you’re saying, 

 

but if you rotate your lead forearm open and it stays there, the face opens. I’m asking how do you get the face square with an open lead forearm. How would Flexing the lead wrist achieve this?

if your lead forearm is open in space, doesn’t matter how flexed the lead wrist is. The face will be open.

The lead forearm is supinating thru impact - this is closing the face to the path.     Supinating the lead forearm thru impact closes the face not opens it -  I assume by open you mean supinated.    Again, if I am pronating the lead arm I would be opening the face which is what happens in the backswing - and closing the face to the path is a process that involves flexing, supinating , and rotating

[Strikeleopard54]

2 hours ago, glk said:

The lead forearm is supinating thru impact - this is closing the face to the path.     Supinating the lead forearm thru impact closes the face not opens it -  I assume by open you mean supinated.    Again, if I am pronating the lead arm I would be opening the face which is what happens in the backswing - and closing the face to the path is a process that involves flexing, supinating , and rotating

I’m asking in regard to the hack motion graphs that show the lead forearm as open at impact, meaning pronated - what happens in the backswing. However as it’s global rotation, not really talking about pronation/supination, just talking about where the lead forearm is pointed in space. The graphs, such as DJs and many more, show the forearm is pointed more open (to the right) at impact than address, so how can the face be squared up? Can’t be through flexion as the lead forearm shows as being more open on the graph, doesn’t matter how much flex ion you have if the lead forearm is open at impact. Can’t be through body rotation as we’re talking about global rotation, not  true forearm rotation. 
so how do you think the face can be squared up if the lead forearm points 20-40 degrees to the right at impact?

Edited May 13, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[golfarb1]

There seems to be some confusion about basic anatomy and kinesiology of the wrists, forearm and external/ internal rotation of the shoulder and how it relates to the golf swing . 

The wrist can move in 5 different directions

1. Radial deviation -cocking the wrists with the thumb moving towards the radial bone on the forearm 

2.Ulnar deviation -uncocking the wrists with the pinkie moving towards the ulnar bone on the forearm 

3. Flexion-the palm of hands moving towards the inside of the forearm

4. extension -the outside of hand moving towards the outside of the forearm 

5 circumduction-combining 2 of the above resulting in the wrists moving in a circle

 

Forearm

Because the two forearm bones are attached to the wrist bones , movements of the forearm will also move the wrist bone 

The forearm can move in two directions 

1.Pronation- Rotating the forearm so that the PALM of the hand faces more down. Pronation of the lead forearm will also open the clubface . All seem to agree that an open clubface often leads to problems later in the swing . But unless you are a closed face player like David Duval some opening of the clubface is necessary to square.the clubface 

2. Supination -rotating the forearm so that that PALM of the hand faces more up

 

 

External / internal rotation of the shoulder rotates the head of the humerus bone ( upper arm bone) within the shoulder joint . Because the other end of the humerus bone forms the elbow joint any external/internal rotation of the shoulder will also rotate the elbow in the  same direction 

1 . External rotation of the shoulder will rotate the elbow towards the middle of the body - example  elbow in a “ waiters tray” position at the top with the forearm pointing more down 

2. Internal rotation of the shoulder will rotate the elbow away from the midline of the body-example is a flying elbow at the top with the forearm more horizontal 

 

Those who draw conclusion about how much external rotation happens going down need to be careful in the composition of their data base. If it is populated with golfers like Jack Nicklaus and Bubba Watson who have flying elbows  , there will be a great deal of external rotation going down ; if is populated with golfers like Tiger who has his forearm  close to or in the “ waiters tray position at the top there will be very little external rotation going down because it is already externally rotated .

 

Coupled movements 

1.ulnar deviation and wrist flexion 

2.radial deviation and wrist extension 

Coupled movements mean that because of the way that the bones of the wrist fit together , one movement makes it much easier to accomplish when the other is present

For example when  a golfers lead wrist is in ulnar deviation , it is easier to flex the  lead wrist 

 

Although external shoulder rotation and pronation /supination of the forearm are not strictly considered  coupled motion , they are considered associated movements because they usually move together . That is why golfers often both externally rotate their trail shoulder AND  supinate their trail forearm in transition . 

 

 

 

How do these movements appear in the golf swing 

Ulnar deviation will be present in ALL golf swings , whether it be tour winners or those who shoot 150. Without ulnar deviation the club head would never hit the ball

 

Among very good players , most will move their lead wrist towards more flexion at the top than at setup. This does not mean that the lead wrist is actually flexed or bowed because of the affect of a golfers grip 

 

Common MISCONCEPTIONS  

1. golfers should strive towards a flexed or even bowed lead wrist at the top. For golfers with a strong lead hand grip , this is almost an impossibility unless the golfer has wrist mobility that is off of the charts ( Dustin  Johnson) . 
2. Flexion / extension can shallow the shaft . .In order to shallow the shaft , the shaft has to rotate so that it is more horizontal . Flexion/extension is anatomically INCAPABLE  of doing this . Only pronation / supination of the forearm or shoulder external rotation  can accomplish this .

Some of the confusion happens because when the forearms are supinating /pronating the wrists are often also flexing / extending 

3. Although flexion /extension of the wrist are INCAPABLE of rotating the shaft and shallowing the shaft , they are capable of changing the orientation of the clubface - meaning that these wrist movements can OPEN or CLOSE the clubface . 
Many golfers strive to flex their lead wrist in order to close the clubface . But flexing their lead wrist will only close the clubface when their wrists are in radial deviation .  When their wrists are in ulnar deviation flexing their lead wrist will have the opposite reaction - it will orient the clubface more open . 
 

Every golfer need to close the clubface from P6to P7

There  are 4 ways to do this 

1.  Flipping - this is universally considered a swing fault 

 

2. External rotation of the lead arm- I have not seen any numbers on this movement 

3. Supination of the lead forearm - this will definitely close the clubface . For those who have sufficiently shallowed the shaft , this  supination will be unconscious or  automatic 

4. Rib cage rotation - 

 

 

 
For Hackmotion , remember that each golfers numbers will be different and that there are no optimum graphs for everyone  . Instead of looking at absolute numbers , strive to improve your numbers 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by golfarb1

[Strikeleopard54]

4 minutes ago, golfarb1 said:

There seems to be some confusion about basic anatomy and kinesiology of the wrists, forearm and external/ internal rotation of the shoulder and how it relates to the golf swing . 

The wrist can move in 5 different directions

1. Radial deviation -cocking the wrists with the thumb moving towards the radial bone on the forearm 

2.Ulnar deviation -uncocking the wrists with the pinkie moving towards the ulnar bone on the forearm 

3. Flexion-the palm of hands moving towards the inside of the forearm

4. extension -the outside of hand moving towards the outside of the forearm 

5 circumduction-combining 2 of the above resulting in the wrists moving in a circle

 

Forearm

Because the two forearm bones are attached to the wrist bones , movements of the forearm will also move the wrist bone 

The forearm can move in two directions 

1.Pronation- Rotating the forearm so that the PALM of the hand faces more down. Pronation of the lead forearm will also open the clubface . All seem to agree that an open clubface often leads to problems later in the swing . But unless you are a closed face player like David Duval some opening of the clubface is necessary to square.the clubface 

2. Supination -rotating the forearm so that that PALM of the hand faces more up

 

 

External / internal rotation of the shoulder rotates the head of the humerus bone ( upper arm bone) within the shoulder joint . Because the other end of the humerus bone forms the elbow joint any external/internal rotation of the shoulder will also rotate the elbow in the  same direction 

1 . External rotation of the shoulder will rotate the elbow towards the middle of the body - example  elbow in a “ waiters tray” position at the top with the forearm pointing more down 

2. Internal rotation of the shoulder will rotate the elbow away from the midline of the body-example is a flying elbow at the top with the forearm more horizontal 

 

Those who draw conclusion about how much external rotation happens going down need to be careful in the composition of their data base. If it is populated with golfers like Jack Nicklaus and Bubba Watson who have flying elbows  , there will be a great deal of external rotation going down ; if is populated with golfers like Tiger who has his forearm  close to or in the “ waiters tray position at the top there will be very little external rotation going down because it is already externally rotated .

 

Coupled movements 

1.ulnar deviation and wrist flexion 

2.radial deviation and wrist extension 

Coupled movements mean that because of the way that the bones of the wrist fit together , one movement makes it much easier to accomplish when the other is present

For example when  a golfers lead wrist is in ulnar deviation , it is easier to flex the  lead wrist 

 

Although external shoulder rotation and pronation /supination of the forearm are not strictly considered  coupled motion , they are considered associated movements because they usually move together . That is why golfers often both externally rotate their trail shoulder AND  supinate their trail forearm in transition . 

 

 

 

How do these movements appear in the golf swing 

Supination will be present in ALL golf swings , whether it be tour winners or those who shoot 150. Without supination the club head would never hit the ball

 

Among very good players , most will move their lead wrist towards more flexion at the top than at setup. This does not mean that the lead wrist is actually flexed or bowed because of the affect of a golfers grip 

 

Common MISCONCEPTIONS  

1. golfers should strive towards a flexed or even bowed lead wrist at the top. For golfers with a strong lead hand grip , this is almost an impossibility unless the golfer has wrist mobility that is off of the charts ( Dustin  Johnson) . 
2. Flexion / extension can shallow the shaft . .In order to shallow the shaft , the shaft has to rotate so that it is more horizontal . Flexion/extension is anatomically INCAPABLE  of doing this . Only pronation / supination of the forearm or shoulder external rotation  can accomplish this .

Some of the confusion happens because when the forearms are supinating /pronating the wrists are often also flexing / extending 

3. Although flexion /extension of the wrist are INCAPABLE of rotating the shaft and shallowing the shaft , they are capable of changing the orientation of the clubface - meaning that these wrist movements can OPEN or CLOSE the clubface . 
Many golfers strive to flex their lead wrist in order to close the clubface . But flexing their lead wrist will only close the clubface when their wrists are in radial deviation .  When their wrists are in ulnar deviation flexing their lead wrist will have the opposite reaction - it will orient the clubface more open . 
 

Every golfer need to close the clubface from P6to P7

There  are 4 ways to do this 

1.  Flipping - this is universally considered a swing fault 

 

2. Internal rotation of the lead arm- I have not seen any numbers on this movement 

3. Supination of the lead forearm - this will definitely close the clubface . For those who have sufficiently shallowed the shaft , this  supination will be unconscious or  automatic 

4. Rib cage rotation - 

 

 

 
For Hackmotion , remember that each golfers numbers will be different and that there are no optimum graphs for everyone  . Instead of looking at absolute numbers , strive to improve your numbers 

 

 

Do you have an answer to the above question?

[golfarb1]

2 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

Do you have an answer to the above question?

As I stated supination of the trail forearm ( pronation of the lead forearm ) and right shoulder external rotation 

are associated movements and happen during in transition .

To prove this to yourself make a backswing with exaggerated internal shoulder rotation ( flying elbow ) and then externally rotate your right shoulder to get your right elbow more in front of you . You will notice that your lead forearm pronates ( palm turns more palm down ) when you do so . 
 In the release part of the swing P6 ,supination of the lead forearm  is a  

significant factor in squaring the clubface .Even Ben Hogan , whose swing is noted for his very strong torso rotation , had a significant amount of supination in this part of the swing .