Pronation/supination at transition

[Soloman1]

9 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

Ok I get you’ve tapped out but if anyone else can save me, 

It does start at 0, just look at the graphs

 

I did look at the graphs on this page. Perhaps you should look again.

No parameter starts at zero at address.

 

[Strikeleopard54]

6 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

I did look at the graphs on this page. Perhaps you should look again.

No parameter starts at zero at address.

 

Hackmotion graphs, the purple line is global rotation and at address is 0.

think you are looking at Tyler’s graphs which measure differently.

just want to be clear my question is about the hackmotion graphs.

swing option b graph. Global rotation starts at 0, but doesn’t get back there at impact. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[Strikeleopard54]

10 hours ago, golfarb1 said:

As I stated supination of the trail forearm ( pronation of the lead forearm ) and right shoulder external rotation 

are associated movements and happen during in transition .

To prove this to yourself make a backswing with exaggerated internal shoulder rotation ( flying elbow ) and then externally rotate your right shoulder to get your right elbow more in front of you . You will notice that your lead forearm pronates ( palm turns more palm down ) when you do so . 
 In the release part of the swing P6 ,supination of the lead forearm  is a  

significant factor in squaring the clubface .Even Ben Hogan , whose swing is noted for his very strong torso rotation , had a significant amount of supination in this part of the swing . 

 

I’m unsure if you are answering this question: how do you think the face can be squared up if the lead forearm points 20-40 degrees to the right at impact?

 

you’re response about how the face squares up is: 

In the release part of the swing P6 ,supination of the lead forearm  is a  

significant factor in squaring the clubface

 

My question is how can the face be squared up when many of the hack motion graphs show lead forearm as being more open at impact than address. The answer cannot be supination as then the graphs would show the forearm as returning at impact back to were at address.

 

 

I’m fully aware that supination closes the face, so why would the graphs show the forearm as more open at impact?

 

Im referring to the swing option B graph. Global Rotation starts at 0, but doesn’t get back there at impact.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[PracticeSwinger]

23 minutes ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

I’m unsure if you are answering this question: how do you think the face can be squared up if the lead forearm points 20-40 degrees to the right at impact?

 

you’re response about how the face squares up is: 

In the release part of the swing P6 ,supination of the lead forearm  is a  

significant factor in squaring the clubface

 

My question is how can the face be squared up when many of the hack motion graphs show lead forearm as being more open at impact than address. The answer cannot be supination as then the graphs would show the forearm as returning at impact back to were at address.

 

 

I’m fully aware that supination closes the face, so why would the graphs show the forearm as more open at impact?

 

Im referring to the swing option B graph. Global Rotation starts at 0, but doesn’t get back there at impact.

Option B in those Hackmotion graphs are DJ, Morikawa, Hovland type of release - open body, open shoulder line, ‘holding the angles’ (even though the lead wrist is extending through impact). Which shows that the lead forearm isn’t supinated more than at address but it’s a combo of wrist flexion and ulnar that gets shaft lean. Morikawa with driver (not even irons) here

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

Hackmotion graphs, the purple line is global rotation and at address is 0.

think you are looking at Tyler’s graphs which measure differently.

just want to be clear my question is about the hackmotion graphs.

swing option b graph. Global rotation starts at 0, but doesn’t get back there at impact. 

 

I’m not “tapped out” because that’s all I know… 🙂

 

You’re talking about the DJ pattern?

Ulnar deviation, as I said before.

 

It closes the clubface.

 

Go into flexion as he does, ulnar deviate as much as he does, raise the handle and the clubface closes.

 

That is the answer you’re looking for.

 

And hm does not have a high frequency of capture, so consider the numbers and graphs to be close, but not precise. The results are smoothed because there aren’t that many data points, especially in the downswing approaching impact - the fastest speed.

 

Impact is determined by vibration transmitted through the shaft to the hand sensor, so that time stamp is accurate.

 

The orientation of the sensors at that point may be between data points, so it’s approximated based on extending the curve of previous data points.

 

Since DJ and his unique arm and wrist movements (he’s an anomaly) is a drive and hold release, acceleration is increasing with no braking and release approaching impact.

 

That means a greater spatial interval between data points and a greater likelihood of being between data points at impact, especially at his clubhead speed and acceleration.

 

The hand measurements are close like a hand grenade, but not precise like a bullet. But the pattern is there.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Soloman1

[golfarb1]

5 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

I’m unsure if you are answering this question: how do you think the face can be squared up if the lead forearm points 20-40 degrees to the right at impact?

 

you’re response about how the face squares up is: 

In the release part of the swing P6 ,supination of the lead forearm  is a  

significant factor in squaring the clubface

 

My question is how can the face be squared up when many of the hack motion graphs show lead forearm as being more open at impact than address. The answer cannot be supination as then the graphs would show the forearm as returning at impact back to were at address.

 

 

I’m fully aware that supination closes the face, so why would the graphs show the forearm as more open at impact?

 

Im referring to the swing option B graph. Global Rotation starts at 0, but doesn’t get back there at impact.

Forget about the graphs for a second .

Let assume that the clubface is toe up(square) at P6 . I understand that a number of golfers have it slightly pointed down , but many have had the toe pointed up.

That means that the clubface has to rotate 90 degrees to square the clubface  from P6 to P7

How do you suggest that this happens if no supination is present? 

[Zitlow]

Don't send Dustin Johnson those graphs. 

[JDIL]

On 5/13/2023 at 9:54 AM, Strikeleopard54 said:

The Q is

how can the face be square if the lead forearm is 20*(or even up to 40*) open than at impact?

body rotation is irrelevant as is global rotation. Flexion doesn’t close the face without the forearm rotating. Only delofts.

so how is it possible.

You ask how you can you square the face with the forearm open at impact, and then say you can’t answer with the actual answer. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Like asking what 2 + 2 is but you can’t say 4 because it’s irrelevant because that’s using math. Well what kind of answer are you looking for? Lots of ways to square a club face as shown by the many swings on your and godawful swings on the weekends at your local club that produce straight flights. Some players have open shoulders at impact, some less so. Some even square. Well in order for the clubhead to be square other things need to be open/less open/closed etc

Edited May 14, 2023 by JDIL

[golfer07840]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:30 PM, glk said:

The lead forearm is supinating thru impact - this is closing the face to the path.     Supinating the lead forearm thru impact closes the face not opens it -  I assume by open you mean supinated.    Again, if I am pronating the lead arm I would be opening the face which is what happens in the backswing - and closing the face to the path is a process that involves flexing, supinating , and rotating

Watch this.. I think this may answer your question very simply. Start around the 5:00 mark  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by golfer07840

[glk]

9 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

Watch this.. I think this may answer your question very simply. Start around the 5:00 mark  

 

 

 

 

I don't have a question on supination and pronation - maybe you meant this for Strikeleopard?

[golfer07840]

57 minutes ago, glk said:

I don't have a question on supination and pronation - maybe you meant this for Strikeleopard?

Yes.. stupid me...

 

@Strikeleopard54  watch this ^^ start around the 5 min mark. 

[Soloman1]

He probably won’t be back.

Another lesson on why to stay away from I&A topics.

The answer comes knocking at your door, but you don’t open it.

[JOHNWAT]

I am interested in the DeWiz device for swing analysis, but cant seem to find clear, objective summary of what people/golfers think about it.

if anyone has a link to a good summary, please let me know.

I am 70+ and a mid handicapper 20+.

thanks

John

[srsbeans]

On 5/14/2023 at 11:37 AM, golfarb1 said:

Forget about the graphs for a second .

Let assume that the clubface is toe up(square) at P6 . I understand that a number of golfers have it slightly pointed down , but many have had the toe pointed up.

That means that the clubface has to rotate 90 degrees to square the clubface  from P6 to P7

How do you suggest that this happens if no supination is present? 

 

 

I may have missed if someone explained this on my thread, but within the hackmotion app it explains that there are two methods to close the club face, lead wrist flexion or supination.

 

On 5/14/2023 at 6:33 AM, Strikeleopard54 said:

I’m unsure if you are answering this question: how do you think the face can be squared up if the lead forearm points 20-40 degrees to the right at impact?

 

you’re response about how the face squares up is: 

In the release part of the swing P6 ,supination of the lead forearm  is a  

significant factor in squaring the clubface

 

My question is how can the face be squared up when many of the hack motion graphs show lead forearm as being more open at impact than address. The answer cannot be supination as then the graphs would show the forearm as returning at impact back to were at address.

 

 

I’m fully aware that supination closes the face, so why would the graphs show the forearm as more open at impact?

 

Im referring to the swing option B graph. Global Rotation starts at 0, but doesn’t get back there at impact.

 

I think that Global Rotation measures from the hackmotion unit that sits on the wrist/forearm and not the hand. Hackmotion claims in the discussion on the app that both supination and lead wrist flexion can close the club face. I think this explanation is correct. 

 

It's certainly possible to have a hyper-weak or otherwise faulty lead hand grip where wrist flexion would not close the face but only deloft it, like you said. However, with a normal grip, lead wrist flexion operates to close the face. It may help you to visualize the shaft--or the words on the grip end of the shaft--rotating counterclockwise as the wrist flexes. Can you at least see how a strong enough grip would start to create that effect?

 

I think this is actually a pretty important principle in how the lead wrist operates to manage the clubface during the swing.

[golfarb1]

Please clear up my confusion

 If flexion of the lead wrist closes the clubface, then does the opposite motion , extension of the lead wrist  open the 

clubface ? 
Flipping can be described as having the clubhead  ahead of the hands at impact and usually involves extension of the lead wrist.

So is it correct to conclude that golfers who flip do so in order to OPEN the clubface ?

 

 

[slytown]

On 1/31/2023 at 5:01 PM, Ex Blade User said:

One of the new data points with the deWiz watch trainer (great pice of equipment IMO) Is measuring the pronation/supination values of the left wrist at transition to the first four inches of the downswing. They say that pros have 0 degrees to negative a couple degrees. Positive value is “steepening (supination) while negative is “shallowing” (pronation). Hard to wrap my head around that the lead wrist pronates or turns clockwise at the beginning of the downswing then supinates through impact?  Seems like a lot of movement in .25 of a second to go backward then forwards. What would cause this?? Is it that the “downswing” pivot starts before the end of the backswing so the wrist is rotating back still slightly during transition? 
 

so if you pronate at transition how is the face not wide open

 

I think there are two points that need to be emphasized here.

 

1. NOONE is actively pronating or supinating, unless they are trying to hit big cuts or hooks in weird situations. A slightly strong grip will produce some supination in the downswing. It may seem like a lot of movement to you because you can't think of it as an active movement. It's simply how the wrist works through a combination of good grip, good path, and good sequencing.

 

2. The golf swing is dynamic. When vertical and rotational forces are acting on the club, it produces changes in the wrist conditions throughout the downswing, from transition to impact to finish. If you look at the slow motion wrist in movement (or in data capture), the wrist from a flat state at P4 will go to supination, pronation, supination, and pronation.

 

My problem with hack motion is that it only identifies the results of the dynamic movements. Therefore, players are encouraged to hold supination throughout the swing. The data is worthless without interpreting it and applying it.

Edited October 9, 2023 by slytown

[slytown]

1 hour ago, golfarb1 said:

Please clear up my confusion

 If flexion of the lead wrist closes the clubface, then does the opposite motion , extension of the lead wrist  open the 

clubface ? 
Flipping can be described as having the clubhead  ahead of the hands at impact and usually involves extension of the lead wrist.

So is it correct to conclude that golfers who flip do so in order to OPEN the clubface ?

 

 

 

Yes, they would if the club was out past the hands. The only way to keep the ball from being pulled straight left is to open the face.

[srsbeans]

On 10/9/2023 at 12:01 PM, golfarb1 said:

Please clear up my confusion

 If flexion of the lead wrist closes the clubface, then does the opposite motion , extension of the lead wrist  open the 

clubface ? 

 

I find this confusing as well, but I think I might actually understand it a little bit, mostly thanks to using hackmotion, so I'll try to describe how I understand it. If other people can tell me if or where I'm wrong, that's most welcome.

 

The answer to the first question, "does extension of the lead wrist open the clubface."

 

I think the answer is Yes, with all other things being equal, and it also adds loft. 

 

I'd ask you to take a stance with a golf club with a neutral to strong grip. If you then work your lead wrist into extension which changes the orientation of your hand as well as the golf shaft, and the effect is to rotate the golf shaft clockwise, opening the face. (Maybe easier to see at p2.)

 

However, you could also trick the sensor by leaving the club where it is and simply bending your lead arm and moving your elbow down. This is technically "wrist extension" but obviously had no influence on the clubface. 

 

 

 

On 10/9/2023 at 12:01 PM, golfarb1 said:

Flipping can be described as having the clubhead  ahead of the hands at impact and usually involves extension of the lead wrist.

So is it correct to conclude that golfers who flip do so in order to OPEN the clubface ?

 

Again I think its fair to be confused here, but I think its especially easy to get confused if your starting point is to attempt to make broad rules about an faulty pattern, then try to attribute a global motive to that pattern.

 

I would point you to the hackmotion explainer, https://hackmotion.com/learning-center/ball-flight-explained/ , 

which identifies lead forearm supination as the other influence of clubface angle. I really think that this (together with the trail wrist flexing prematurely) is the signature move of the flip.

 

Yes the lead wrist arrives to impact excessively extended, but this doesn't require that the lead wrist was ever meaningfully more flexed at some other point during the swing. More likely it was too extended during the downswing, and the golfer, desperate to square the face, performs a stalling maneuver throw the trail wrist and roll the lead arm over. Yes the lead wrist is extended, and yes this has an incidental opening (and loft adding) effect, but this effect might be easily overshadowed by closure from the lead arm that the golfer felt the need to accomplish.