Pronation/supination at transition

[Ex Blade User]

One of the new data points with the deWiz watch trainer (great pice of equipment IMO) Is measuring the pronation/supination values of the left wrist at transition to the first four inches of the downswing. They say that pros have 0 degrees to negative a couple degrees. Positive value is “steepening (supination) while negative is “shallowing” (pronation). Hard to wrap my head around that the lead wrist pronates or turns clockwise at the beginning of the downswing then supinates through impact?  Seems like a lot of movement in .25 of a second to go backward then forwards. What would cause this?? Is it that the “downswing” pivot starts before the end of the backswing so the wrist is rotating back still slightly during transition? 
 

so if you pronate at transition how is the face not wide open

Edited January 31 by Ex Blade User

[Trippels]

30 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

One of the new data points with the deWiz watch trainer (great pice of equipment IMO) Is measuring the pronation/supination values of the left wrist at transition to the first four inches of the downswing. They say that pros have 0 degrees to negative a couple degrees. Positive value is “steepening (supination) while negative is “shallowing” (pronation). Hard to wrap my head around that the lead wrist pronates or turns clockwise at the beginning of the downswing then supinates through impact?  Seems like a lot of movement in .25 of a second to go backward then forwards. What would cause this?? Is it that the “downswing” pivot starts before the end of the backswing so the wrist is rotating back still slightly during transition? 
 

so if you pronate at transition how is the face not wide open

Might be something about shallowing the shaft while the hands work down squares up the club:

 

[MonteScheinblum]

The supination is a direct reaction to the pronation.  Most golfers wanting to square the club early mess that up.

 

Pronating, flexing and ulnar deviating is a magic move and so heinous of a feel to those that don’t it never takes hold.

Edited January 31 by MonteScheinblum

[Ex Blade User]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The supination is a direct reaction to the pronation.  

What I don’t understand is it that the pronation going back just continues through transition? Then supinate later towards and through impact?  Feels like the face is wayyyy open then at the top. I’m sure I’m doing it wrong to begin with so will feel crazy 

[MonteScheinblum]

15 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

What I don’t understand is it that the pronation going back just continues through transition? Then supinate later towards and through impact?  Feels like the face is wayyyy open then at the top. I’m sure I’m doing it wrong to begin with so will feel crazy 

The reverse is true, if you over pronate in the backswing trying to cheat, you’ll get a knee jerk supination and kick the shaft out.  
 

See every golfer who ever played the game that rolled it inside.

 

The body likes neutral, so if you feed it tar, it will cough it out.

 

That’s why I use the word “some” so much when I teach.

 

Edited:This is why I always lose it when people teach a float load to get people lag.  
 

Just sit there in slow motion and try and float load a bunch of lag without extending the lead wrist AAAAAAAND be neutral or get some probation.  It’s like telling someone with Montezuma’s revenge to eat 3 pounds of cheese and they’re lactose intolerant.

Edited January 31 by MonteScheinblum

[glk]

 

[Ex Blade User]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The reverse is true, if you over pronate in the backswing trying to cheat, you’ll get a knee jerk supination and kick the shaft out.  
 

See every golfer who ever played the game that rolled it inside.

 

The body likes neutral, so if you feed it tar, it will cough it out.

 

That’s why I use the word “some” so much when I teach.

Trying to cheat what? 

and yes been working on the no roll inside forever and making progress but so hard as it’s ingrained in the old noggin. 
 

i actually have been messing with it and it seems the pronating at the top does correlate with how early I get pressure left, not anything conscious. Happens naturally feels like, really cool how we can measure these things now!

Edited January 31 by Ex Blade User

[Ex Blade User]

1 minute ago, glk said:

 

Thanks GLK I came across this before I posted, trying to learn about it. 

[glk]

Just now, Ex Blade User said:

Thanks GLK I came across this before I posted, trying to learn about it. 

A key move -  ulnar is a shallower and supination of lead is steepener - the compliment each other - major move in squaring the face - body rotation doesn't - thru release it is difficult to motorcycle so it is motorcycle early to start squaring the face and the supination thru release.  

[Krt22]

If it's only a little bit of pronation early in transition, why can't there be supination leading into impact? Even golfwrx swing gurus with the keenest eyes would not be able to detect a few degrees of pronation on camera

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, glk said:

A key move -  ulnar is a shallower and supination of lead is steepener - the compliment each other - major move in squaring the face - body rotation doesn't - thru release it is difficult to motorcycle so it is motorcycle early to start squaring the face and the supination thru release.  

Very much how the lead wrist can flex early in transition and is extending through impact. The shaft being too laid off in transition is just as problematic as it being too steep

Edited January 31 by Krt22

[Ex Blade User]

4 minutes ago, glk said:

A key move -  ulnar is a shallower and supination of lead is steepener - the compliment each other - major move in squaring the face - body rotation doesn't - thru release it is difficult to motorcycle so it is motorcycle early to start squaring the face and the supination thru release.  

Yea when I do the bowing through impact I actually get a sting through my left arm so learned pretty quick it wasn’t for me lol

[Ex Blade User]

10 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If it's only a little bit of pronation early in transition, why can't there be supination leading into impact? Even golfwrx swing gurus with the keenest eyes would not be able to detect a few degrees of pronation on camera

But I thought you could see everything with your eyes 😉

 

you are correct and that’s what the Tyler video confirms. Tour players have slight pronation into transition and then supinate through impact. Amateurs supinate right from the top. Just curious how that works because it’s foreign but as I said I’ve noticed if I get presser left early it seems to just happen. And it feels cool ha

Edited January 31 by Ex Blade User

[MtlJayMan]

37 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

But I thought you could see everything with your eyes 😉

 

you are correct and that’s what the Tyler video confirms. Tour players have slight pronation into transition and then supinate through impact. Amateurs supinate right from the top. Just curious how that works because it’s foreign but as I said I’ve noticed if I get presser left early it seems to just happen. And it feels cool ha

Don’t want to drag this thread into the other popular one lately - but the feeling of straightening your trail arm in transition ‘in front of your chest’ / ala Rose drill (that you have to blend with pivoting) will automatically make you pronate your lead forearm for a tiny moment; just what you need - before supination occurs

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Ex Blade User said:

Yea when I do the bowing through impact I actually get a sting through my left arm so learned pretty quick it wasn’t for me lol

Unless your name is Daniel Berger, you’re not supposed to bow through impact, as no one else does

[glk]

Another old one from tyler - nine years   This is the first video that light bulb went off for me on how the arms really work in release - they extend in front of your sternum (as long as you didn't extend them in a early release) and they involve dual supination of the forearms and not much from the shoulders.  He shows this extension starting around the 2 minutes mark or so.
 

 

 

Edited February 1 by glk

[MonteScheinblum]

Great video

[Golf_Goof]

2 hours ago, Ex Blade User said:

Yea when I do the bowing through impact I actually get a sting through my left arm so learned pretty quick it wasn’t for me lol

I’ve experienced this as well when trying to have a bowed/flexed wrist - not consciously through impact though. I didn’t like that feeling and wondered if it’s due to technique or lack of forearm development.

[Ex Blade User]

13 minutes ago, Golf_Goof said:

I’ve experienced this as well when trying to have a bowed/flexed wrist - not consciously through impact though. I didn’t like that feeling and wondered if it’s due to technique or lack of forearm development.

Yea wasnt “trying” to go through impact just aggressively bowing the wrist. But when I hit the ball like that there was a sting

[TexasTurf]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:30 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Unless your name is Daniel Berger, you’re not supposed to bow through impact, as no one else does

I'm watching a Michael Neff video where he says Justin Rose's lead wrist goes towards flexion and stays in flexion through impact. Is that true or is he just misspeaking? Not arguing, genuinely curious.

[glk]

10 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

I'm watching a Michael Neff video where he says Justin Rose's lead wrist goes towards flexion and stays in flexion through impact. Is that true or is he just misspeaking? Not arguing, genuinely curious.

There are some others.   Tyler in below video mentions that this pattern is rare - he shows 3D graphs of the timing of the lead wrist flexion, backswing, transition/early downswing, and release (p6).    He shows Rory Sabbitini as a example of the release(though he doesn't mention the name of the golfer in his 3D graph)  - I've have no 3Ddata but from Tyler's description John Senden might be an additional example from viewing his swing.   So Rory S and Berger - Tyler says a handful and he has likely seen hundreds of tour 3D - he has been reading 3D graphs since the early 2000s when he was an intern with Greg Rose - I know he has his own collection, he worked with Jon Sinclair who has a pretty extensive collection, and from podcasts he has mentioned that he has often been consulted on 3D swing graphs (maybe more in the past then currently since the technology has been out there much more in the past 10 years).

 

jump to 7:20 to hear and see Tyler's release style motorcycle talk and 3D graph - it is at the 12:50 mark where he shows Rory S.

 

 

Here is a face one of Senden where you see his cupped left wrist down to p6 and then flat at impact.  Like I said I have no 3D on him but he appears to fit the pattern Tyler describes.

 

 

Edited February 12 by glk

[Soloman1]

Pronation and supination are rotations of the forearm only. If you have some device measuring wrist, hand or forearm only movement, it is not accounting for rotation of the upper arm, which also occurs in the swing.

 

Hold your lead arm at your side with your forearm horizontal and don’t move the upper arm as you rotate the forearm. That is pronation/supination. Hold your arms in front like holding a club and take a backswing. Your upper arm is causing some of the rotation. The total motion is just rotation and not all from pronation.

 

Also, just to repeat something that is still misunderstood by many:

1. We are in extension of the lead wrist at address.

2. They have to move into flexion during the backswing or perhaps more in transition. They may move towards extension approaching impact. They are not in extension. They are still in flexion, but let’s say releasing from flexion, with less flexion at impact.