Pronation/supination at transition

[Ex Blade User]

One of the new data points with the deWiz watch trainer (great pice of equipment IMO) Is measuring the pronation/supination values of the left wrist at transition to the first four inches of the downswing. They say that pros have 0 degrees to negative a couple degrees. Positive value is “steepening (supination) while negative is “shallowing” (pronation). Hard to wrap my head around that the lead wrist pronates or turns clockwise at the beginning of the downswing then supinates through impact?  Seems like a lot of movement in .25 of a second to go backward then forwards. What would cause this?? Is it that the “downswing” pivot starts before the end of the backswing so the wrist is rotating back still slightly during transition? 
 

so if you pronate at transition how is the face not wide open

Edited January 31, 2023 by Ex Blade User

[Trippels]

30 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

One of the new data points with the deWiz watch trainer (great pice of equipment IMO) Is measuring the pronation/supination values of the left wrist at transition to the first four inches of the downswing. They say that pros have 0 degrees to negative a couple degrees. Positive value is “steepening (supination) while negative is “shallowing” (pronation). Hard to wrap my head around that the lead wrist pronates or turns clockwise at the beginning of the downswing then supinates through impact?  Seems like a lot of movement in .25 of a second to go backward then forwards. What would cause this?? Is it that the “downswing” pivot starts before the end of the backswing so the wrist is rotating back still slightly during transition? 
 

so if you pronate at transition how is the face not wide open

Might be something about shallowing the shaft while the hands work down squares up the club:

 

[MonteScheinblum]

The supination is a direct reaction to the pronation.  Most golfers wanting to square the club early mess that up.

 

Pronating, flexing and ulnar deviating is a magic move and so heinous of a feel to those that don’t it never takes hold.

Edited January 31, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[Ex Blade User]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The supination is a direct reaction to the pronation.  

What I don’t understand is it that the pronation going back just continues through transition? Then supinate later towards and through impact?  Feels like the face is wayyyy open then at the top. I’m sure I’m doing it wrong to begin with so will feel crazy 

[MonteScheinblum]

15 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

What I don’t understand is it that the pronation going back just continues through transition? Then supinate later towards and through impact?  Feels like the face is wayyyy open then at the top. I’m sure I’m doing it wrong to begin with so will feel crazy 

The reverse is true, if you over pronate in the backswing trying to cheat, you’ll get a knee jerk supination and kick the shaft out.  
 

See every golfer who ever played the game that rolled it inside.

 

The body likes neutral, so if you feed it tar, it will cough it out.

 

That’s why I use the word “some” so much when I teach.

 

Edited:This is why I always lose it when people teach a float load to get people lag.  
 

Just sit there in slow motion and try and float load a bunch of lag without extending the lead wrist AAAAAAAND be neutral or get some probation.  It’s like telling someone with Montezuma’s revenge to eat 3 pounds of cheese and they’re lactose intolerant.

Edited January 31, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[glk]

 

[Ex Blade User]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The reverse is true, if you over pronate in the backswing trying to cheat, you’ll get a knee jerk supination and kick the shaft out.  
 

See every golfer who ever played the game that rolled it inside.

 

The body likes neutral, so if you feed it tar, it will cough it out.

 

That’s why I use the word “some” so much when I teach.

Trying to cheat what? 

and yes been working on the no roll inside forever and making progress but so hard as it’s ingrained in the old noggin. 
 

i actually have been messing with it and it seems the pronating at the top does correlate with how early I get pressure left, not anything conscious. Happens naturally feels like, really cool how we can measure these things now!

Edited January 31, 2023 by Ex Blade User

[Ex Blade User]

1 minute ago, glk said:

 

Thanks GLK I came across this before I posted, trying to learn about it. 

[glk]

Just now, Ex Blade User said:

Thanks GLK I came across this before I posted, trying to learn about it. 

A key move -  ulnar is a shallower and supination of lead is steepener - the compliment each other - major move in squaring the face - body rotation doesn't - thru release it is difficult to motorcycle so it is motorcycle early to start squaring the face and the supination thru release.  

[Krt22]

If it's only a little bit of pronation early in transition, why can't there be supination leading into impact? Even golfwrx swing gurus with the keenest eyes would not be able to detect a few degrees of pronation on camera

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, glk said:

A key move -  ulnar is a shallower and supination of lead is steepener - the compliment each other - major move in squaring the face - body rotation doesn't - thru release it is difficult to motorcycle so it is motorcycle early to start squaring the face and the supination thru release.  

Very much how the lead wrist can flex early in transition and is extending through impact. The shaft being too laid off in transition is just as problematic as it being too steep

Edited January 31, 2023 by Krt22

[Ex Blade User]

4 minutes ago, glk said:

A key move -  ulnar is a shallower and supination of lead is steepener - the compliment each other - major move in squaring the face - body rotation doesn't - thru release it is difficult to motorcycle so it is motorcycle early to start squaring the face and the supination thru release.  

Yea when I do the bowing through impact I actually get a sting through my left arm so learned pretty quick it wasn’t for me lol

[Ex Blade User]

10 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If it's only a little bit of pronation early in transition, why can't there be supination leading into impact? Even golfwrx swing gurus with the keenest eyes would not be able to detect a few degrees of pronation on camera

But I thought you could see everything with your eyes 😉

 

you are correct and that’s what the Tyler video confirms. Tour players have slight pronation into transition and then supinate through impact. Amateurs supinate right from the top. Just curious how that works because it’s foreign but as I said I’ve noticed if I get presser left early it seems to just happen. And it feels cool ha

Edited January 31, 2023 by Ex Blade User

[PracticeSwinger]

37 minutes ago, Ex Blade User said:

But I thought you could see everything with your eyes 😉

 

you are correct and that’s what the Tyler video confirms. Tour players have slight pronation into transition and then supinate through impact. Amateurs supinate right from the top. Just curious how that works because it’s foreign but as I said I’ve noticed if I get presser left early it seems to just happen. And it feels cool ha

Don’t want to drag this thread into the other popular one lately - but the feeling of straightening your trail arm in transition ‘in front of your chest’ / ala Rose drill (that you have to blend with pivoting) will automatically make you pronate your lead forearm for a tiny moment; just what you need - before supination occurs

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Ex Blade User said:

Yea when I do the bowing through impact I actually get a sting through my left arm so learned pretty quick it wasn’t for me lol

Unless your name is Daniel Berger, you’re not supposed to bow through impact, as no one else does

[glk]

Another old one from tyler - nine years   This is the first video that light bulb went off for me on how the arms really work in release - they extend in front of your sternum (as long as you didn't extend them in a early release) and they involve dual supination of the forearms and not much from the shoulders.  He shows this extension starting around the 2 minutes mark or so.
 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by glk

[MonteScheinblum]

Great video

[Golf_Goof]

2 hours ago, Ex Blade User said:

Yea when I do the bowing through impact I actually get a sting through my left arm so learned pretty quick it wasn’t for me lol

I’ve experienced this as well when trying to have a bowed/flexed wrist - not consciously through impact though. I didn’t like that feeling and wondered if it’s due to technique or lack of forearm development.

[Ex Blade User]

13 minutes ago, Golf_Goof said:

I’ve experienced this as well when trying to have a bowed/flexed wrist - not consciously through impact though. I didn’t like that feeling and wondered if it’s due to technique or lack of forearm development.

Yea wasnt “trying” to go through impact just aggressively bowing the wrist. But when I hit the ball like that there was a sting

[TexasTurf]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:30 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Unless your name is Daniel Berger, you’re not supposed to bow through impact, as no one else does

I'm watching a Michael Neff video where he says Justin Rose's lead wrist goes towards flexion and stays in flexion through impact. Is that true or is he just misspeaking? Not arguing, genuinely curious.

[glk]

10 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

I'm watching a Michael Neff video where he says Justin Rose's lead wrist goes towards flexion and stays in flexion through impact. Is that true or is he just misspeaking? Not arguing, genuinely curious.

There are some others.   Tyler in below video mentions that this pattern is rare - he shows 3D graphs of the timing of the lead wrist flexion, backswing, transition/early downswing, and release (p6).    He shows Rory Sabbitini as a example of the release(though he doesn't mention the name of the golfer in his 3D graph)  - I've have no 3Ddata but from Tyler's description John Senden might be an additional example from viewing his swing.   So Rory S and Berger - Tyler says a handful and he has likely seen hundreds of tour 3D - he has been reading 3D graphs since the early 2000s when he was an intern with Greg Rose - I know he has his own collection, he worked with Jon Sinclair who has a pretty extensive collection, and from podcasts he has mentioned that he has often been consulted on 3D swing graphs (maybe more in the past then currently since the technology has been out there much more in the past 10 years).

 

jump to 7:20 to hear and see Tyler's release style motorcycle talk and 3D graph - it is at the 12:50 mark where he shows Rory S.

 

 

Here is a face one of Senden where you see his cupped left wrist down to p6 and then flat at impact.  Like I said I have no 3D on him but he appears to fit the pattern Tyler describes.

 

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by glk

[Soloman1]

Pronation and supination are rotations of the forearm only. If you have some device measuring wrist, hand or forearm only movement, it is not accounting for rotation of the upper arm, which also occurs in the swing.

 

Hold your lead arm at your side with your forearm horizontal and don’t move the upper arm as you rotate the forearm. That is pronation/supination. Hold your arms in front like holding a club and take a backswing. Your upper arm is causing some of the rotation. The total motion is just rotation and not all from pronation.

 

Also, just to repeat something that is still misunderstood by many:

1. We are in extension of the lead wrist at address.

2. They have to move into flexion during the backswing or perhaps more in transition. They may move towards extension approaching impact. They are not in extension. They are still in flexion, but let’s say releasing from flexion, with less flexion at impact.

[Strikeleopard54]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:09 PM, glk said:

 

On this video it shows in the pro graphs that there is lead arm pronation in transition, but in the majority of the hackmotion graphs that are out there, the pronation stops at the top and supination begins in transition. 

 

 

Are the hack motion graphs wrong? What have i missed...? Is there meant to be pronation in transition or no?

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Strikeleopard54

[GungHoGolf]

11 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

On this video it shows in the pro graphs that there is lead arm pronation in transition, but in the majority of the hackmotion graphs that are out there, the pronation stops at the top and supination begins in transition. 

 

 

Are the hack motion graphs wrong? What have i missed...? Is there meant to be pronation in transition or no?

 

 

 

 

Tyler’s graphs are measuring lead forearm pronation/supination, and are output by more sophisticated 3D mocap systems.

 

Hackmotion is very good at measuring radial/ulnar deviation and flexion/extension, because those are true wrist joint movements, and the 2-piece configuration of the sensors (one on each side of the wrist joint) is ideal for that purpose. 

 

But the wrist does not pronate/supinate - that rotation happens at the elbow and/or shoulder joint, and is called forearm and/or upper arm pronation/supination by systems with enough sensors to differentiate. So Hackmotion fudges a little here and calls that metric “global rotation” - which can change with the orientation of the entire body (especially upper thoracic bend) even if the lead shoulder and forearm are locked in position. 

 

So, to sum up, you can’t compare graphs of rotation by these two systems with any degree of confidence. It’s like the old saying “if you have one clock, you know what time it is - but if you have two, you don’t.”

 

Side note: “transition” is a fuzzy term and not a point in time that can be pinpointed on a graph - most but not all define it to be over just prior to the “top” on these graphs, as it’s the change in direction of all the body parts (which transition in sequence). 

Edited May 11, 2023 by GungHoGolf

[Simpsonia]

On 1/31/2023 at 6:40 PM, glk said:

Another old one from tyler - nine years   This is the first video that light bulb went off for me on how the arms really work in release - they extend in front of your sternum (as long as you didn't extend them in a early release) and they involve dual supination of the forearms and not much from the shoulders.  He shows this extension starting around the 2 minutes mark or so.
 

 

 

 

 

Yep, this was definitely one of those aha moments from Tyler's videos. He does have another on free swinging supination, mirrored by the below AMG segment. I had to spend weeks just doing this little left-arm swinging drill (that Tiger often did on the teebox) to free up my left wrist to even allow supination, which I had ingrained a lock trying to hold lag. Video @4:42. Even better if you lock your bicep to your torso so the only thing that can rotate is the forearm via supination rather than aiding it with shoulder rotation. 

 

One of the other great things I learned from Tyler's videos in how not to be afraid of supination is how little supination affects the clubface through the impact area. If you go a little slow you can see that all of the clubface rotation from unforced supination comes well after impact. 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Simpsonia

[slytown]

I think the point being missed in this thread is that a proper path produces pronation and supination naturally. Noone should be actively bowing the wrist or cupping in the transition. The hands and wrists are not consciously moved. Its the arms that are consciously moved.

[Strikeleopard54]

17 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

global rotation” - which can change with the orientation of the entire body (especially upper thoracic bend) even if the lead shoulder and forearm are locked in position. 

Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.

got one more haha

 

Global rotation - so it’s not just forearm and shoulder rotation, it’s the entire body aswell?? So if my lead arm/shoulder is locked (not moving independently) and my hips or thoracic turn it around, then that will measure as global rotation?

Or in other words if I just stood up normally and locked the lead arm, and just turned myself around with my feet, then it would measure as global rotation? 
 

If this is the case then that would mean that some peoples lead forearms/shoulder point a lot more to the right at impact (or less rotated back than at address), see swing option B.

how do they not block it if there lead arm is pointing to the right (less rotated than address) at impact?

 

 

Because before I was under the impression that the graphs said their (option b lot) lead forearm/shoulder pointed to the right, but their body was bringing it around without the arm independently rotating as much, and therefore it actually ends up where it was at adresss just not via true rotation.

 

 

[gators78]

I have the DeWiz device, it’s awesome. 

 

Only thing I’ll add here from my own experience is trying to isolate these movements is EXTREMELY hard as it is one long reaction chain to what you’re doing. My fault is taking it too inside/flat on the way back, I can try to motorcycle move/pronate in transition all day long and won’t get there because with that fault I’ll immediately extend/supinate in transition. When I get the club more upright going back, it’s much easier.

[Simpsonia]

6 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.

got one more haha

 

Global rotation - so it’s not just forearm and shoulder rotation, it’s the entire body aswell?? So if my lead arm/shoulder is locked (not moving independently) and my hips or thoracic turn it around, then that will measure as global rotation?

Or in other words if I just stood up normally and locked the lead arm, and just turned myself around with my feet, then it would measure as global rotation? 
 

If this is the case then that would mean that some peoples lead forearms/shoulder point a lot more to the right at impact (or less rotated back than at address), see swing option B.

how do they not block it if there lead arm is pointing to the right (less rotated than address) at impact?

 

 

Because before I was under the impression that the graphs said their (option b lot) lead forearm/shoulder pointed to the right, but their body was bringing it around without the arm independently rotating as much, and therefore it actually ends up where it was at adresss just not via true rotation.

 

 

 

AMG busted the myth a while back that DJ keeps the face square to path and just rotates into impact. In reality, he supinates and closes the face near as much as anyone. 

 

Edit: Not to say that all of his club face closure is from supination, it's a combo of many movements including trail shoulder external rotation, ulnar deviation(unhinge), and supination through the impact zone. Supination is also not necessarily a conscious twisting of the wrists/forearms. Much of the supination through impact is caused by the extension of the arms away from the body rather than a conscious twist movement. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Simpsonia

[GungHoGolf]

6 hours ago, Strikeleopard54 said:

Global rotation - so it’s not just forearm and shoulder rotation, it’s the entire body aswell??

 

Only Hackmotion can answer that question - but the physical orientation of the device makes its limitations clear, so I’m pretty sure that “global” means any body movement that causes rotation of the wrist in 3D space.