USGA and R&A announce proposal to limit golf ball performance for elite level competition

[kiwigolf72]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

Yeah, good luck with that!!! 
 

🤪😂

 

*btw. Safe to say this thread leads GWRX by a huge margin for “confused” and “sad” emoji reactions! Have a great Memorial Day!

 And to kiwi 🥝 golf and other non US inhabitants, have a great day! 😊

what is the history behind memorial day ?

[TiScape]

1 minute ago, kiwigolf72 said:

what is the history behind memorial day ?

Here ya go!

 

https://www.history.com/topics/holidays/memorial-day-history

[kiwigolf72]

1 minute ago, TiScape said:

Here ya go!

 

https://www.history.com/topics/holidays/memorial-day-history

thanks, sounds like a good day to remember how lucky we all are. Also marks the arrival of summer, unfortunately being from the bottom of the world it's the opposite and winter is getting closer. 

[Archimedes65]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:00 AM, Pnwpingi210 said:

Yup good swing are good swings.  It’s the bad swing the modern equipment has helped.

 

Fairway metals are such a unique club to the player.  For some it’s a tee club, for some it’s a Swiss Army knife.  It takes a while to find the right one, but when you do you know it.

 

thanks for sharing.

 

But this is why I never get fitted for anything.  If I were to buy a new driver, I’d simply get whatever the current TaylorMade equivalent of my SiMax is, same 9 degree loft, in whatever stiff shaft came in the clubs they have sitting on the shelf.  Because it ain’t the club.  It’s how I swing the club.  If I want a club to perform better, I just need to swing it better.    I got fitted for Ping Irons over 20 years ago (very upright and extended) and I’ve used those specs on new sets ever since; never refitted.  Still works, why change. For me, 90% of the game is making sure a given club fits my eye at address and has nice balance through the swing.  Then it’s on me to swing it right.

 

I have friends in the 5-10 index range that went through the entire fitting process, testing myriads of shafts with different characteristics, and custom ordering a club, and then they drive the ball exactly the same as they did with their old driver.  IMO, you gotta have a really consistent swing before any of that makes any difference.

 

 

Edited May 27 by Archimedes65

[kiwigolf72]

3 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

But this is why I never get fitted for anything.  If I were to buy a new driver, I’d simply get whatever the current TaylorMade equivalent of my SiMax is, same 9 degree loft, in whatever stiff shaft came in the clubs they have sitting on the shelf.  Because it ain’t the club.  It’s how I swing the club.  If I want a club to perform better, I just need to swing it better.    I got fitted for Ping Irons over 20 years ago (very upright and extended) and I’ve used those specs on new sets ever since; never refitted.  Still works, why change. For me, 90% of the game is making sure a given club fits my eye at address and has nice balance through the swing.  Then it’s on me to swing it right.

 

I have friends in the 5-10 index range that went through the entire fitting process, testing myriads of shafts with different characteristics, and custom ordering a club, and then they drive the ball exactly the same as they did with their old driver.  IMO, you gotta have a really consistent swing before any of that makes any difference.

 

 

I agree on the fitting process. If your swing is not repeatable then I do wonder the benefits of getting fitted

[GoGoErky]

29 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

I agree on the fitting process. If your swing is not repeatable then I do wonder the benefits of getting fitted

The golfer doesn’t have to fight the club when it’s fit to them. It doesn’t guarantee a better swing but gives them a club that works with them rather against them. Golfers still have to execute golf shots each time, but we can see that even pros who have extremely good and repeatable swings and fitted equipment can still hit some really bad shots including shanks 

 

https://www.pga.com/story/how-club-fitting-can-help-the-high-handicap-golfer

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/high-handicappers-arent-getting-fit-for-clubs-but-new-study-says-they-might-benefit-the-most

 

https://golf.com/gear/1-stat-fitting-matters-fit-factor/?amp=1
 

multiple other articles out on the interwebs

Edited May 27 by GoGoErky

[kiwigolf72]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

The golfer doesn’t have to fight the club when it’s fit to them. It doesn’t guarantee a better swing but gives them a club that works with them rather against them. Golfers still have to execute golf shots each time, but we can see that even pros who have extremely good and repeatable swings and fitted equipment can still hit some really bad shots including shanks 

At the club I play at there is a rich old guy who plays of a 26ish HC. He has the latest model clubs which have been fitted. 

Every time I see him, he's doing something different from the last time, stance, grip, swing, speed. .my point was not sure getting fitted is actually any benefit for him or people like him. 

Your right getting fitted has nothing to do with a better swing. Having fitted clubs is no good if your grip is funky or your ball position keeps changing.

JMO

[kiwigolf72]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

The golfer doesn’t have to fight the club when it’s fit to them. It doesn’t guarantee a better swing but gives them a club that works with them rather against them. Golfers still have to execute golf shots each time, but we can see that even pros who have extremely good and repeatable swings and fitted equipment can still hit some really bad shots including shanks 

 

https://www.pga.com/story/how-club-fitting-can-help-the-high-handicap-golfer

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/high-handicappers-arent-getting-fit-for-clubs-but-new-study-says-they-might-benefit-the-most

 

https://golf.com/gear/1-stat-fitting-matters-fit-factor/?amp=1
 

multiple other articles out on the interwebs

 

There has to be some consistency to get the benefits of a fitting IMO. The majority of golfers I see have no consistency in their setup and swing, that's why they can stripe their driver down the middle on one hole and the next hole they slice it out of bounds.

Edited May 27 by kiwigolf72

[kiwigolf72]

Higher HC players would get more benefit from mastering the basics than from an expensive fitting.

More work should be done on stance, posture, grip and ball position etc

This at least gives you the chance of making a good swing, the fitted set of Titleist irons you're holding don't know if your setup correctly.

JMO

Edited May 27 by kiwigolf72

[bekgolf]

44 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

 the fitted set of Titleist irons you're holding don't know if your setup correctly.

JMO

 

I'm going to repeat that quote sometime in the future, lol.

[Archimedes65]

Funny thing, I don’t even know the exact model of driver in my bag right now.  It’s a SiMax something something.  I’ve played it for about two and half years.  Does the job.  Our assistant pro asked me once what shaft I had in my driver.  I said the pretty one.  I had no idea.

[GoGoErky]

3 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

At the club I play at there is a rich old guy who plays of a 26ish HC. He has the latest model clubs which have been fitted. 

Every time I see him, he's doing something different from the last time, stance, grip, swing, speed. .my point was not sure getting fitted is actually any benefit for him or people like him. 

Your right getting fitted has nothing to do with a better swing. Having fitted clubs is no good if your grip is funky or your ball position keeps changing.

JMO

As I mentioned the golfer still has to execute the shot. Not practicing properly or trying every new quick fix isn’t going to help anyone.
 

But you are welcome to your opinion and choose to ignore any actual data about fittings 

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

Higher HC players would get more benefit from mastering the basics than from an expensive fitting.

More work should be done on stance, posture, grip and ball position etc

This at least gives you the chance of making a good swing, the fitted set of Titleist irons you're holding don't know if your setup correctly.

JMO

There are some lower caps who could do the same but those golfers also found a way to own their flaws and work their way around a course.  But if they have a tool that works against them focusing on the basics aren’t going to do them much help if they have to manipulate their swing to make the non fitted club work for the shot they want to hit 

[kiwigolf72]

16 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

As I mentioned the golfer still has to execute the shot. Not practicing properly or trying every new quick fix isn’t going to help anyone.
 

But you are welcome to your opinion and choose to ignore any actual data about fittings 

I'm not debating that fitting is a valuable tool, IMO a player of a higher HC could see more gains from improving their fundamentals.

Do you have data on all golfers ever who have had a fitting and the improvements they have made? vs the improvements golfers who worked on having a good grip made?

what about data of people who had lessons vs people who purchased a new fitted driver ? 

got any of that data?

 

Edited May 27 by kiwigolf72

[chisag]

4 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

The golfer doesn’t have to fight the club when it’s fit to them. It doesn’t guarantee a better swing but gives them a club that works with them rather against them.

 

 

... If you can't run very well or very fast, you still need shoes that fit your feet. I greatly preferred teaching students that had clubs that fit them opposed to those that did not. I am not talking an expensive premium fitting, just get them in the right ball park.

... When I moved to Phoenix 5 years ago I befriended an 18 index that has become my partner and good friend. He LOVES golf but was/is completely ignorant about equipment. He was playing some knock off clones and the only decent club in his bag was a 9.5* TM Burner SF driver with a shaft too long and too stiff. I talked him into going to a demo day, or more appropriately I signed him up for a free Callaway demo day so he had little choice. 🤪  LOL, he bought all new clubs because during the demo he "hit everything so much better and it made golf easier".  3/5 woods, 4/5 hybrids, Rogue ST Max OS irons and wedges. A Rogue ST Max 10.5* driver with a r-flex Tensei cut to 45". He hits it so much better than the stock x-flex 46" Burner SF he was playing.

... I have worked with his swing ever so slowly but he has dropped his index to a 10 because as you said he is improving his swing with clubs that work with him and not against him. 

[maamold]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:00 AM, Pnwpingi210 said:

Yup good swing are good swings.  It’s the bad swing the modern equipment has helped.

 

Fairway metals are such a unique club to the player.  For some it’s a tee club, for some it’s a Swiss Army knife.  It takes a while to find the right one, but when you do you know it.

 

thanks for sharing.

Did...did you just say Fairway Metals?
 

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

 

... If you can't run very well or very fast, you still need shoes that fit your feet. I greatly preferred teaching students that had clubs that fit them opposed to those that did not. I am not talking an expensive premium fitting, just get them in the right ball park.

... When I moved to Phoenix 5 years ago I befriended an 18 index that has become my partner and good friend. He LOVES golf but was/is completely ignorant about equipment. He was playing some knock off clones and the only decent club in his bag was a 9.5* TM Burner SF driver with a shaft too long and too stiff. I talked him into going to a demo day, or more appropriately I signed him up for a free Callaway demo day so he had little choice. 🤪  LOL, he bought all new clubs because during the demo he "hit everything so much better and it made golf easier".  3/5 woods, 4/5 hybrids, Rogue ST Max OS irons and wedges. A Rogue ST Max 10.5* driver with a r-flex Tensei cut to 45". He hits it so much better than the stock x-flex 46" Burner SF he was playing.

... I have worked with his swing ever so slowly but he has dropped his index to a 10 because as you said he is improving his swing with clubs that work with him and not against him. 

 

That’s a pretty extreme example though.  You had a high handicapper playing garbage clubs, who you moved into quality modern clubs.  And you’ve also worked on his swing, as you say.

 

The question is really, for someone who has the right length, lie, stiffness in their clubs, why go further with all the minute details about different shaft types, swing weights, etc.  The basics of having the right stiffness for your swing speed and the right length and lie for your body and swing plane are definitely of value for anyone.  I don’t see a lot of value beyond that unless you’re an elite golfer with an exceptional swing.

 

And in your opening example, if I’m not a very fast runner, I probably don’t need a set of $500 custom fitted running shoes.  Off the shelf Nike’s are probably good enough for me.

 

BTW, when I say value, I mean in improving one’s play/index.  I don’t fault someone for pursuing their passion to the nth degree and if it makes the game more fun for them.  I’m all for it.

Edited May 28 by Archimedes65

[chisag]

23 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

That’s a pretty extreme example though.  You had a high handicapper playing garbage clubs, who you moved into quality modern clubs.  And you’ve also worked on his swing, as you say.

 

The question is really, for someone who has the right length, lie, stiffness in their clubs, why go further with all the minute details about different shaft types, swing weights, etc.  The basics of having the right stiffness for your swing speed and the right length and lie for your body and swing plane are definitely of value for anyone.  I don’t see a lot of value beyond that unless you’re an elite golfer with an exceptional swing.

 

 

... I taught full time for 5 years and it was more the norm than the exception. Forum golfers tend to be much more educated about their equipment. And seriously, why would you need a fitting if you have the right length, lie and stiffness? That is the purpose of a fitting. Considering you don't even know what your driver is let alone what shaft you are playing, maybe there is a performance boost out there, even if you are hitting it well now.

... And I agree, the better the player the more they can benefit from a fitting that say, fine tunes their driver shaft and head. There are plenty of WRX golfers that honestly think they play better with MB's. I am sure a few do, but if the majority went in for a fitting they would come out with something else, just like most on tour and virtually all of the LPGA. Obligatory for any MB mention, I am not talking about those that play them for the pure enjoyment and I even tip my cap to those that say they could score better with something a little more forgiving but they love playing MB's. 

... But going back to the basics, there are just so many playing ill fitting clubs and until they get into equipment that fits them, even a rudimentary fitting at a box store, they will continue to make it harder on themselves than it needs to be. 


 

38 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

And in your opening example, if I’m not a very fast runner, I probably don’t need a set of $500 custom fitted running shoes.  Off the shelf Nike’s are probably good enough for me.

 

 

... I am not advocating $500 shoes for a casual runner. But you don't want the heel or tongue to cause blisters once you get out and start rubbing in them. And if your ankle pronates or supinates, something off the shelf isn't gonna let you run well and/or run without pain. Something a pair of Nikes off the shelf may or may not do. But having a shoe person that knows feet and how shoes fit them, they could put you in a pair that does work for you at the same price of your Nikes. 

[Archimedes65]

We’re saying the same thing, just different shades of grey.  I wasn’t referring to the basics of making sure that you have clubs that have the right length, lie, and stiffness.  To me those are table stakes for most everyone and something that most people could even figure out themselves by following some basic procedures.

 

I’m talking about the people who nerd out on different shaft types, with different kick points, different swing weights, etc.  For example, I’ve hit the driver that I have in both regular and stiff shafts, and it took me about five minutes to figure out stiff was still right for me.  And the ball goes really straight with whatever shaft type that I have in it now, so really see no need to fine tune it further.  If I miss the fairway, it’s my swing, not the club, at this point.  I never feel that it’s working against me. In fact, I’d say that about every club in my bag right now.  When I put a good swing on the ball, the result is fantastic with every single one.  I could not expect any better performance out of any of them, so the onus is on me to make good swings.

 

I was watching a rerun of the end of this weekend’s DP World Tour event finish this morning and chuckling when three of the four guys still in contention at the end were blasting their drives 30 yards into the trees on the last couple holes with what I’m sure are drivers that have been expertly fitted to them based on hours and hours of testing.

 

 

Edited May 28 by Archimedes65

[bekgolf]

44 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

We’re saying the same thing, just different shades of grey.  I wasn’t referring to the basics of making sure that you have clubs that have the right length, lie, and stiffness.  To me those are table stakes for most everyone and something that most people could even figure out themselves by following some basic procedures.

 

I’m talking about the people who nerd out on different shaft types, with different kick points, different swing weights, etc.  For example, I’ve hit the driver that I have in both regular and stiff shafts, and it took me about five minutes to figure out stiff was still right for me.  And the ball goes really straight with whatever shaft type that I have in it now, so really see no need to fine tune it further.  If I miss the fairway, it’s my swing, not the club, at this point.  I never feel that it’s working against me. In fact, I’d say that about every club in my bag right now.  When I put a good swing on the ball, the result is fantastic with every single one.  I could not expect any better performance out of any of them, so the onus is on me to make good swings.

 

I was watching a rerun of the end of this weekend’s DP World Tour event finish this morning and chuckling when three of the four guys still in contention at the end were blasting their drives 30 yards into the trees on the last couple holes with what I’m sure are drivers that have been expertly fitted to them based on hours and hours of testing.

 

 

 

Are you sure you're on the correct forum?  I am a proud wrx member and my best driver is the one I just sold and the one I'm about to purchase!

 

Mostly kidding but I will say that when I found the correct shaft profile and flex it was a night and day difference due to how aggressive I am on the downswing.  I'm glad I kept looking for something that fit my existing swing.  Prior to that I would have to take a lot off to smooth it enough for the standard soft middle blue profile that most manufacturers have as standard equipment. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

16 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

The question is really, for someone who has the right length, lie, stiffness in their clubs, why go further with all the minute details about different shaft types, swing weights, etc.  The basics of having the right stiffness for your swing speed and the right length and lie for your body and swing plane are definitely of value for anyone.  I don’t see a lot of value beyond that unless you’re an elite golfer with an exceptional swing.

 

 

Yeah, and I'd argue most ams don't have a freakin' clue if they have the right stiffness, length, lie, shaft weight, etc. And for many of them, what they DO have is wrong. 

 

For someone above probably a 10 cap, it's not all that important to get a "perfect" fit; it's VERY important to avoid a completely "wrong" fit. Simply get into the ballpark. But I'd argue a lot of players aren't actually there. 

 

The truth is, you can make things work. When my son had his first set (secondhand, senior flex, ultralight graphite), it was okay for him because he was pre-teen and pretty weak. When I would try to swing the clubs they felt like nothing, but as long as I fought all of my own tendencies and just focused on trying to make the smoothest swing I could make, I could hit them. As he got older and stronger, he started having significant problems with consistency. One day we were at the range together and I had only brought my 7 iron. He was having trouble with contact. So I handed him my 7i, which is a 115g stiff shaft and (due to being +1" extended) swing weights out to about D6-7. He started immediately striping them all. That club was probably still "too much" for him, but by getting out of one that was completely wrong, he could just actually swing and not try to work around the equipment. That day we got home and put his set away and he inherited my previous set of clubs. 

 

That might be an extreme example, but I think there are a lot of mid-high cap players that think they can buy off the rack and not think about shafts, who would benefit from a fitting to get them into a more appropriate shaft. It doesn't have to be "dialed in", but you will pretty quickly start to feel the weight and flex that fits your swing, and you'll know what's individually right and wrong for you. 

[clevited]

37 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Are you sure you're on the correct forum?  I am a proud wrx member and my best driver is the one I just sold and the one I'm about to purchase!

 

Mostly kidding but I will say that when I found the correct shaft profile and flex it was a night and day difference due to how aggressive I am on the downswing.  I'm glad I kept looking for something that fit my existing swing.  Prior to that I would have to take a lot off to smooth it enough for the standard soft middle blue profile that most manufacturers have as standard equipment. 

 

This.  I have found that certain bend profiles and flex better suit my swing at full speed.  Many make a full speed swing completely unpredictable while others make me know for certain it was all me if the ball goes in an unintended direction.  I refused to play to the club and require and expect the club to play to me as much as is possible.  It certainly doesn't fix everything but man, you can really feel the difference sometimes.

[munichop]

I expect a player with superior mechanics and non optimized equipment will do better than one with optimized equipment and poor mechanics.  In other words equipment fitting can only do so much for a poor swing.   
Regarding the dispersion of the 3 taylor made drivers while the spaes may be different it appears the newest one has the smallest area of dispersion which should be the case if the engineering has improved.

[kiwigolf72]

45 minutes ago, munichop said:

I expect a player with superior mechanics and non optimized equipment will do better than one with optimized equipment and poor mechanics.  In other words equipment fitting can only do so much for a poor swing.   
 

Agree.

 

[Nard_S]

There's no doubt better players can swing to most anything. There's also little doubt that top players have exacting build specs too. 

 

Nerding on weight and shaft profiles will shrink impact cluster and I'm glad I did it for myself. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

22 hours ago, munichop said:

I expect a player with superior mechanics and non optimized equipment will do better than one with optimized equipment and poor mechanics.  In other words equipment fitting can only do so much for a poor swing.   
 

 

Agree. Rick Shiels has a video with someone who I think is either a DPWT player or some lower-level Euro tour, playing a "bargain set" of clubs, i.e. 70 British pounds for the whole set. Clubs he'd never touched before, and obviously are COMPLETELY wrong for his swing. I think over 9 holes he was 1 over par. 

 

But that doesn't invalidate fitting. It just shows that a talented player can work around equipment, probably much more easily than a poor player can work around equipment. 

 

 

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Agree. Rick Shiels has a video with someone who I think is either a DPWT player or some lower-level Euro tour, playing a "bargain set" of clubs, i.e. 70 British pounds for the whole set. Clubs he'd never touched before, and obviously are COMPLETELY wrong for his swing. I think over 9 holes he was 1 over par. 

 

 

 

That reminds me of way back years ago when I was a motorcycle track day newb, thinking I was fast.  Super fast bike, first track day, ripping through the carousel at Sears Point with my knee on the ground, looking super cool I’m sure…and the instructor comes by me on the outside on an EX500 (basically a bike you’d commute to school on if you had no money) and, at full lean, takes his hand off his left handlebar and puts it on my knee…  His point was: relax, you’re not as good as you think you are.  It was an awesome, humbling lesson that I took to heart.  It ain’t the equipment that’s important, it’s the person using the equipment.  Work on me, not my bike.

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

That reminds me of way back years ago when I was a motorcycle track day newb, thinking I was fast.  Super fast bike, first track day, ripping through the carousel at Sears Point with my knee on the ground, looking super cool I’m sure…and the instructor comes by me on the outside on an EX500 (basically a bike you’d commute to school on if you had no money) and, at full lean, takes his hand off his left handlebar and puts it on my knee…  His point was: relax, you’re not as good as you think you are.  It was an awesome, humbling lesson that I took to heart.  It ain’t the equipment that’s important, it’s the person using the equipment.  Work on me, not my bike.

 

LOL. I used to have a Suzuki SV650S, which I know isn't "fast" as bikes go, but a heck of a lot of fun. Was part of an SV owner's group online and we were all doing a track day at the Streets of Willow up at Willow Springs Raceway. Great track for a 66 hp V-twin bike as it's more tight and technical. I think it's something like 17 turns in 1.8 miles. 

 

I'm flying up the start/finish straight, crank over into turn 1 (100ish MPH slight right), start standing on the brakes to prep for turn 2. On the inside of me comes this kid who was definitely under 16 years old on an Aprilia 250 (33? hp bike). I hadn't even thought he was near me on the start of the straight. He was gone by the time I exited turn 3. 

 

I've always been "quick" when it comes to anything racing-related. But there's a huge gap between quick and fast lol. 

[Archimedes65]

9 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

LOL. I used to have a Suzuki SV650S, which I know isn't "fast" as bikes go, but a heck of a lot of fun. Was part of an SV owner's group online and we were all doing a track day at the Streets of Willow up at Willow Springs Raceway. Great track for a 66 hp V-twin bike as it's more tight and technical. I think it's something like 17 turns in 1.8 miles. 

 

I'm flying up the start/finish straight, crank over into turn 1 (100ish MPH slight right), start standing on the brakes to prep for turn 2. On the inside of me comes this kid who was definitely under 16 years old on an Aprilia 250 (33? hp bike). I hadn't even thought he was near me on the start of the straight. He was gone by the time I exited turn 3. 

 

I've always been "quick" when it comes to anything racing-related. But there's a huge gap between quick and fast lol. 

 

Yup.  I spent 20 years at the track learning how to be kinda fast.  We’d always laugh about street riders who thought they were fast…until they came to the track.  We all learn that lesson sooner or later, some the easy way, some the hard way.  Following a pro racer around the track was always eye opening, as was riding pillion on the back of Reg Pridmore’s bike while he passed everyone on the track like they were standing still.  I got to ride with Kevin Schwantz once at one of Reg’s track days, which was awesome.  Super nice guy and just insanely talented, even decades after retirement.

 

Edited May 29 by Archimedes65

[StoutKing]

Would everyone please start fighting again?  At this rate we won't reach 500 pages for a while.