Aimpoint with fat fingers

[Asics10]

Any fat finger guys who use Aimpoint? What adjustment do you make? 

 

[nosil]

1 hour ago, Asics10 said:

Any fat finger guys who use Aimpoint? What adjustment do you make? 

 

 

There is a calibration aspect of aimpoint express  You learn how far you need to hold your hands away based on green speed and in your case finger width.  

[iacas]

1 minute ago, nosil said:

There is a calibration aspect of aimpoint express  You learn how far you need to hold your hands away based on green speed and in your case finger width.  

Yes, just that.

[golfer07840]

1 hour ago, nosil said:

 

There is a calibration aspect of aimpoint express  You learn how far you need to hold your hands away based on green speed and in your case finger width.  

Can you expand on this please? 

[GoTime]

29 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

Can you expand on this please? 

what that guy said

Edited May 6, 2023 by GoTime

[Krt22]

11 minutes ago, golfer07840 said:

Can you expand on this please? 

How far you hold your fingers in front of your face. 

[golfer07840]

42 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

How far you hold your fingers in front of your face. 

Interesting.. so faster greens hold them closer or dither away? Or, if you have a link where I can read up on it, that would be much appreciated. 

[ChaosTheory]

2 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

Can you expand on this please? 

The farther out you hold them, the narrower the borrow/read becomes.  For fat fingers, one would hold them farther away.

[Asics10]

My calibration at this point is a struggle because my arm is fully stretched (on my home course) but my fat fingers regularly giving me over-reads.  My arm can on stretch so far. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Asics10

[Soloman1]

Is that you, King Charles?

[RCGA]

I wouldn't worry about it. I'd say your margin of error to accurately assess the slope AND line up the ball is greater than any variation in finger width. 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Asics10 said:

My calibration at this point is a struggle because my arm is fully stretched (on my home course) but my fat fingers regularly giving me over-reads.  My arm can on stretch so far. 

To be honest I find that hard to believe. At stimp 10 my arm is bent about 90°.

[chisag]

... Here is what I don't understand about aim point (or plumb bobbing). It is pretty rare to have a Nascar like bank of a break. It also changes along the way and sometimes in both directions. Granted I am a pure feel putter and it has always been a strength of my game so I basically just allow my subconscious to take in the line and concentrate on speed to get to the hole only. I don't pick a spot to roll over or a high point, just look at the putt similar to walking down a rocky path and let my brain tell me feet where to step, I let my brain tell me where to hit my putt. It is very Zen like so obviously a very technical approach doesn't work for me ... but how does standing on the line and looking at your fingers help at all when putts don't break on an even arc and or hit flat spots along the way or break both ways or take in uphill and downhill or both? Doesn't it just tell you what is happening on the one spot where you are standing? 

[iacas]

@chisag, your eyes can fool you, but your feet are not as easily fooled. AimPoint Express done the very simple way with planar reads still greatly improves green reading for average players. And once you get familiar with it, you can almost "walk your line" and feel the different slopes, and account for a double- or triple-breaking putt.

 

P.S. Don't compare it to plumb bobbing. PB makes no actual sense at all.

[mhudson111]

6 hours ago, chisag said:

... Here is what I don't understand about aim point (or plumb bobbing). It is pretty rare to have a Nascar like bank of a break. It also changes along the way and sometimes in both directions. Granted I am a pure feel putter and it has always been a strength of my game so I basically just allow my subconscious to take in the line and concentrate on speed to get to the hole only. I don't pick a spot to roll over or a high point, just look at the putt similar to walking down a rocky path and let my brain tell me feet where to step, I let my brain tell me where to hit my putt. It is very Zen like so obviously a very technical approach doesn't work for me ... but how does standing on the line and looking at your fingers help at all when putts don't break on an even arc and or hit flat spots along the way or break both ways or take in uphill and downhill or both? Doesn't it just tell you what is happening on the one spot where you are standing? 

If half putt is 2 fingers and it flattens out for second half, would be an average of 2 and 0 .  So 1 finger

 

Or if 2/3rds 2 finger right and 1/3 1 finger left, result is approximately 1 finger right.

 

Basically averaging pieces of the slopes.

[bluedot]

This would be no different if a golfer was saying that he/she had very skinny fingers, or very long or short arms.
 

One of the things that you do with an instructor in an AimPoint lesson is determine whether you tend to over or underestimate break, in addition to the “calibration” of how far out you extend your arm according to the speed of the greens.  A good instructor is going to quickly see that two fingers might be too much, and a diligent golfer is going to figure out on the practice green how to translate a percent of slope to their arm and fingers.

 

Because of damage to my right eye, I’m EXTREMELY left eye dominant, and I have a tendency to miss left.  On putts that break right to left, I have to add a little bit to whatever read I make.  It’s just another variable.

 

I don’t think the size of one’s fingers would be anything other that just another piece of the puzzle.

[PracticeSwinger]

Sorry can’t help it but to think about a really short arms guy with huge fingers haha. Move along, keep going.

[RoyalTroon]

15 hours ago, chisag said:

so I basically just allow my subconscious to take in the line and concentrate on speed to get to the hole only. I don't pick a spot to roll over or a high point, just look at the putt similar to walking down a rocky path and let my brain tell me feet where to step, I let my brain tell me where to hit my putt.

 

...and that line is about as wide as 1/3 of the cup's circumference, so folks wagging their fingers because they have a hard time seeing a large line (path) and sensing the speed needed to complete the path to Grandma's house I would call average putters. 

 

15 hours ago, chisag said:

but how does standing on the line and looking at your fingers help at all when putts don't break on an even arc and or hit flat spots along the way or break both ways or take in uphill and downhill or both? Doesn't it just tell you what is happening on the one spot where you are standing? 

 

Yes

Edited May 7, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[bluedot]

23 minutes ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

...and that line is about as wide as 1/3 of the cup's circumference, so folks wagging their fingers because they have a hard time seeing a large line (path) and sensing the speed needed to complete the path to Grandma's house I would call average putters. 

 

 

Yes

All of this represents a pretty fundamental misunderstanding, if not ignorance, of the AimPoint process.  
 

Just as with every method of reading putts, there are great putters, average putters, and poor putters using AimPoint. 
 

What AimPoint is NOT is some sort of magic trick.  What Aimpoint IS, though, is a valid way of reading a putt.  That includes long putts, short putts, double breakers, fast vs slow greens, and so forth, and the fact that it isn’t what YOU do is pretty much irrelevant, isn’t it?

 

Ask yourself this: If AimPoint doesn’t work, why do so many Tour pros, male and female, playing for their livelihood in the most competitive of arenas and facing enormous pressure in a relatively short career, rely on it?

[chisag]

3 hours ago, bluedot said:

If AimPoint doesn’t work, why do so many Tour pros, male and female, playing for their livelihood in the most competitive of arenas and facing enormous pressure in a relatively short career, rely on it?

 

 

... Occam's Razor. I doubt you would ever see Brad Faxon, Ben Crenshaw or Tiger Woods employing anything other than their feel, their eyes and the stroke they have practiced thousands of times. But if Aimpoint helps, I have always been a fan of if it works, it works. 

[Soloman1]

17 hours ago, iacas said:

PB makes no actual sense at all.

 

Yes, that is said a lot. Perhaps people don’t realize how a player is using it.

 

Sure, there’s no value reading break to the hole at the height of our eyes. If we were at ground level, it could have value, but who wants to lie on the ground?

 

However, the hole is an ellipse from the player’s viewpoint. A vertical reference on the ellipse can identify if the hole itself, and the area immediately near the hole, is canted. It can quickly confirm a tilt for those who die putts at the hole without standing on the hole using their feet and AimPoint.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Soloman1

[RoyalTroon]

[nosil]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

 

I doubt you would ever see Brad Faxon, Ben Crenshaw or Tiger Woods employing anything other than their feel, their eyes and the stroke they have practiced thousands of times. But if Aimpoint helps, I have always been a fan of if it works, it works. 

 

In this video Brad talks about how he and Tiger use their feet to feel the slope.  This is one of the main aspects of aimpoint using your feet to feel the amount of slope.  He also talks a lot in the videos where he is teaching putting that the player should learn to find the 0 break line and how that feels with your feet.  You don't have to use your fingers to pick a spot.    

 

 

[Soloman1]

15 minutes ago, nosil said:

...the player should learn to find the 0 break line and how that feels with your feet.

 

Again, a vertical reference on the ellipse of the cup can confirm the fall line or zero break line.

 

In addition, it can help find a spot or imperfection on the green near the ball if players uses one for their start line.

[bluedot]

1 hour ago, nosil said:

 

In this video Brad talks about how he and Tiger use their feet to feel the slope.  This is one of the main aspects of aimpoint using your feet to feel the amount of slope.  He also talks a lot in the videos where he is teaching putting that the player should learn to find the 0 break line and how that feels with your feet.  You don't have to use your fingers to pick a spot.    

 

 

You beat me to it; thanks!
 

Aimpoint is nothing more than a system to quantify what great putters have always done, which is to feel the slope with their feet.  I don’t know when I first read about doing this, but it was literally decades ago.  
 

I don’t have a caddie, or a green reading book, or great eyes.  That I just might need more help than Tiger, Faxon, or Crenshaw really shouldn’t be particularly surprising.  
 

I’ve written this many times before on AimPoint threads, but our feet are much more accurate than our eyes in determining subtle slopes.  Our feet are constantly correcting our orientation so that we can walk in a straight line despite slopes in our floors, sidewalks, and the ground.  Your eyes WILL deceive you; anyone who has done much cycling knows this.  There are times when you would swear you are going downhill because your eyes are drawn to big slopes on one side or the other, but your legs and the gears are telling you that the grade you are riding is actually uphill.

 

Among golf course architects, Fazio is a master of this; often, he puts a large slope running in one direction behind the green, while the subtle slope of the green runs the other way.  It makes his relatively flat greens much tougher to read than they might otherwise be.  Your eyes will struggle with this device; your feet won’t. 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, chisag said:

... Occam's Razor. I doubt you would ever see Brad Faxon, Ben Crenshaw or Tiger Woods employing anything other than their feel, their eyes and the stroke they have practiced thousands of times. But if Aimpoint helps, I have always been a fan of if it works, it works. 

That’s not how that works, no. Some of the best putters currently use AimPoint.

 

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

However, the hole is an ellipse from the player’s viewpoint. A vertical reference on the ellipse can identify if the hole itself, and the area immediately near the hole, is canted. It can quickly confirm a tilt for those who die putts at the hole without standing on the hole using their feet and AimPoint.

Eh. A 2% slope is like 1.15°. And the slope right at the hole is not super relevant.

[Soloman1]

Those hundredths of a degree can be tricky. What if it’s 1.17? 🙂

 

[bluedot]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

Those hundredths of a degree can be tricky. What if it’s 1.17? 🙂

 

What does that have to do with Aimpoint vs. using your eyes?  Are you claiming your eyes can tell you the difference between a 1.15 degree slope and a 1.17 degree slope?

 

As to the cup itself, here's a story you might like.  My son is a course superintendent, and one day when we were playing, I was reading a ptt and said something about the slope of the hole itself.  My son said, "Dad, don't EVER read a putt by looking at the way the hole is cut!  That was done in the dark by a guy who was half awake and gets $11 an hour."

[Shilgy]

On 5/6/2023 at 4:12 PM, chisag said:

... Here is what I don't understand about aim point (or plumb bobbing). It is pretty rare to have a Nascar like bank of a break. It also changes along the way and sometimes in both directions. Granted I am a pure feel putter and it has always been a strength of my game so I basically just allow my subconscious to take in the line and concentrate on speed to get to the hole only. I don't pick a spot to roll over or a high point, just look at the putt similar to walking down a rocky path and let my brain tell me feet where to step, I let my brain tell me where to hit my putt. It is very Zen like so obviously a very technical approach doesn't work for me ... but how does standing on the line and looking at your fingers help at all when putts don't break on an even arc and or hit flat spots along the way or break both ways or take in uphill and downhill or both? Doesn't it just tell you what is happening on the one spot where you are standing? 

Pretty much what I do as well.  From behind my ball i “see” an imaginary ball roll at intended speed straight at the hole and my read is based on how much that ball broke.  Yes, feet can play a role when in doubt…although at that point it’s pretty dang straight anyways.

 

 That said…if Aimpoint or plumb bobbing or standing on your head makes you a good putter go for it.  A confident stroke at a slightly incorrect line will have a better chance at going in than will a tentative stroke at the right line.  
  HOWEVER, if you still are an awful putter…and we all know this guy…. Please don’t waste our time “using” Aimpoint and fiddling with feet and fingers when every putt known to man you just hold up one finger anyways!🤣

[Soloman1]

30 minutes ago, bluedot said:

What does that have to do with Aimpoint vs. using your eyes?  Are you claiming your eyes can tell you the difference between a 1.15 degree slope and a 1.17 degree slope?

 

No, of course not. Just laughing at hundredths of a degree of precision.

 

31 minutes ago, bluedot said:

My son said, "Dad, don't EVER read a putt by looking at the way the hole is cut!  That was done in the dark by a guy who was half awake and gets $11 an hour."

 

If the area close to the hole is on any incline, the edge of the ellipse will be on the same incline.

 

If we have a reference, our eyes are pretty good at seeing things that are perpendicular to it.

Some people are better than others at visualization and transforming from 2D to 3D, and vice versa, in their vision or mind.