How should this provisional ball situation been handled.

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Last week I played a round with 7 other friends with $100 buy in for best score. The pot is $800 so it's a nice pot. We played at a course called Sleepy Ridge in Orem, Utah.  At this point I'm up 2 strokes over the next person which happens to be in the same group. We are teeing off on hole 13 par 5. Water hazard in the front, out of bounds to the right and left. But the fairway is pretty wide. Its a overcast type of day. And we have been watching each others balls all day. I tee off and 2 of the friends say its gone left and good possibility it's OB. The other friend says that it went left but doesn't think it went so far left that its out of bounds. I proceed to hit a provisional ball. And its left side fairway. We drive off to look for my ball. 2 friends are looking left and OB with me. While the other guy is arguing that we are searching in the wrong area.  I ask him to drive down more and search the rough/thick grass area. But its been 5 minutes now.  The 2 friends helping me search tell me to go my provisional ball. But the one friend tells me to not hit. And he thinks that I'm safe, and not looking in the right area still. And that I should continue to look a little bit more. At this point he's pushing me to look cause I'm up 2 strokes. And he's out of the race for the money. So he is just trying to help me out. I tell him go and drive up the cart path more. The other 2 friends say nope time is up. He has to hit his provisional ball. The other friend drives off anyway. He's about 70-80 yards in front and yells back that I'm good. He comes back to pick me up. And the ball is resting right of the cart path. The other 2 said it doesn't matter cause time is up. The other friend argues that they provided bad information and essentially wasted his time looking in the wrong area after repeatedly saying so. I hit my first ball anyway. And 2 putt for birdie. The other 2 are furious. And make it a case to the others that if I win to not pay me. I end up winning by 1 stroke and only 4 guys pay me. While the others refuse to pay me cause of hole 13. What should have been done to make this situation right? Should I have hit my provisional ball or first ball? Did I handle the situation correctly?

Edited May 21, 2023 by I'_rather_be_golfing

[596]

I'd say your time was up after 3 minutes. Play your provisional.  

 

It's up to you where to look. You can't extend the 3 minute time to look because you didn't look in the right place.

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, 596 said:

I'd say your time was up after 3 minutes. Play your provisional.  

 

It's up to you where to look. You can't extend the 3 minute time to look because you didn't look in the right place.

 

Yep. You control where you look. Though it may be scummy of someone to tell you to look somewhere else, you don't have to listen to them.

 

Your ball is lost after 3 minutes, whether you subsequently find it in an unexpected place or not.

 

If you won by one, you probably should have lost by one ("birdie" with your provisional) or two ("par" with the provisional). If you care enough, I'd refund those who did pay you.

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by iacas

[SNIPERBBB]

You can pause the clock but you cannot reset it. Should of hit the provisional. 

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

Thank you guys. I should have used better judgement. And will be giving back the money and paying up.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, I'_rather_be_golfing said:

Thank you guys. I should have used better judgement. And will be giving back the money and paying up.

Good decision.
According to the Rules, playing your original ball after the three minute search time has elapsed is playing a wrong ball. Playing a wrong ball results in a two stroke penalty and must be corrected (by proceeding correctly- in your case playing your provisional) before you play from the next tee or you are dq’d; you have no score for the 13th hole. 

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

Good decision.
According to the Rules, playing your original ball after the three minute search time has elapsed is playing a wrong ball. Playing a wrong ball results in a two stroke penalty and must be corrected (by proceeding correctly- in your case playing your provisional) before you play from the next tee or you are dq’d; you have no score for the 13th hole. 

Thank you guys for the clarification. Something to remember next time regardless of good or bad advice.

[antip]

17 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

You can pause the clock but you cannot reset it. Should of hit the provisional. 

This is a bit of a minefield. There is no generalised permission to pause the clock because you have started looking in the wrong place. What did you have in mind?

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, antip said:

This is a bit of a minefield. There is no generalised permission to pause the clock because you have started looking in the wrong place. What did you have in mind?

When you've stopped your search for various reasons, the clock is paused, or you found a ball you thought was yours the clock stocks and when you discover the ball is not yours and you start the search again.  Clock resumes when the search resumes, but you don't get a new clock. 

[antip]

50 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

When you've stopped your search for various reasons, the clock is paused, or you found a ball you thought was yours the clock stocks and when you discover the ball is not yours and you start the search again.  Clock resumes when the search resumes, but you don't get a new clock. 

All true, I guess you were seeking to make a very general point. I was picking up on the fact that there there is nothing in the OP's scenario that permits the clock to be stopped - so I didn't want anyone to misunderstand on that front.

[jacob7071]

So if you discover that you've been searching in the wrong area, does the clock pause while you make your way to the correct area?

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, jacob7071 said:

So if you discover that you've been searching in the wrong area, does the clock pause while you make your way to the correct area?

No because how could we define the "wrong area"? 

Edited May 22, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[jacob7071]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

No because how could we define the "wrong area"? 

Wrong area - an area of the golf course where your ball is not likely to be found.

 

If I hit a tee shot that may be OOB, and I spend a minute looking for it ~275yds from the tee before both of my fellow competitors say it hit a tree ~150yds from the tee, then I was clearly searching in the wrong area.  Does the clock stop while I walk back to that tree?  

[SNIPERBBB]

5 minutes ago, jacob7071 said:

Wrong area - an area of the golf course where your ball is not likely to be found.

 

If I hit a tee shot that may be OOB, and I spend a minute looking for it ~275yds from the tee before both of my fellow competitors say it hit a tree ~150yds from the tee, then I was clearly searching in the wrong area.  Does the clock stop while I walk back to that tree?  

Would have to be more specific, is it a 100sq yd area?, 200?50? How many areas do you get to search before the "right" area? 

Edited May 22, 2023 by SNIPERBBB

[iacas]

Nope, scratch that. 🙂

Edited May 23, 2023 by iacas

[limegreengent]

iacas

“It's an interesting question.

 

If you hit a ball way left, and after searching for a minute or two, a player on another hole says "I saw that ball, it hit the tree and bounced to across the fairway into the right rough," I think you'd be justified in "pausing" the clock while the person walked (or jogged, hopefully) across the fairway to resume their search over there.”

 

 

 

The clock does not stop if you decide to change your area or search.

Edited May 22, 2023 by limegreengent

[iacas]

1 hour ago, limegreengent said:

The clock does not stop if you decide to change your area or search.

 

That feels like it's probably right, but you can stop/pause your search to seek clarification for a ruling, to let someone else play a shot, etc.

 

So, @limegreengent, what if the shot above is hit, and the player beings searching before a player on another hole says "hey, buddy, your ball bounced across the fairway beside this tree over here" before he drives off, and the player thinks that means the other guy sees his ball, and that he's going to walk over there to identify it? The timer is stopped while he walks across to, in his understanding, identify his ball, no?

 

Is there ever a situation where something like this ("new information" perhaps?) will result in the time being paused?

[jacob7071]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

That feels like it's probably right, but you can stop/pause your search to seek clarification for a ruling, to let someone else play a shot, etc.

 

So, @limegreengent, what if the shot above is hit, and the player beings searching before a player on another hole says "hey, buddy, your ball bounced across the fairway beside this tree over here" before he drives off, and the player thinks that means the other guy sees his ball, and that he's going to walk over there to identify it? The timer is stopped while he walks across to, in his understanding, identify his ball, no?

 

Is there ever a situation where something like this ("new information" perhaps?) will result in the time being paused?

Going to identify a ball is one of the specific reasons mentioned in the rules for stopping the search timer.

 

Not mentioned, is starting a search in the wrong area.  But the timer doesn't start until the player or caddie begin searching.  I would assume that's to give the player time to get to the area where the ball is likely to be.  So that made me wonder, what if you start your search and then realize you're in the wrong area.  Sounds like the rules aren't very friendly in that scenario.  

[limegreengent]

Jacob  7071

 — “Going to identify a ball is one of the specific reasons mentioned in the rules for stopping the search timer.”

——————————-

 

The above statement is incorrect. The clock does not stop.

 

If you have started searching the clock does not stop whilst you travel the distances to identify “ANY BALL” that has been found during the 3 minute search time.

However ,this means that if you promptly arrive , after the 3 minute search period to identify a ball found within 3 minutes  - then you are okay even if the clock   - which keeps ticking. — is now is past the 3 minutes .

 So as an example , if  a ball is found close to the end of your 3 minute search time you are allowed a reasonable time to get to the location and once there,  up to one minute is regarded as a reasonable time to identify it. ( May be up a tree) . Any other balls found after the  continuing ticking clock of 3 minutes are lost balls .

For further details I would suggest you read clarification 18.2a(1) /3.

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by limegreengent

[jacob7071]

You're right.  I can't find where I read that, but it's not in the rules or interpretations.  I guess I was wrong...

 

or they changed the rules this afternoon!

[Wettyb]

sounds to me like you need to find a couple new "friends" to play with who aren't such little twats

[I'_rather_be_golfing]

On 5/23/2023 at 12:30 PM, Wettyb said:

sounds to me like you need to find a couple new "friends" to play with who aren't such little twats

Haha but to give an update. This is a kicker for sure. They should have probably have kept it between the 2 in my group.. But a few days ago. A "real friend" told me they purposely knew my ball wasn't out of bounds like my other friend was stating and fighting a lot harder then I was. The "real friend" over heard him talking while out for drinks with the same group of friends that was golfing. Apparently it was a bit awkward. And he made himself look like an idiot. HIs exacts words was. The guy makes "money". What's a few dollars to him anyway. Pretty sad if you ask me. And I don't make a lot of money. I just have a wife that is very good with finances. But I'm not pissed about it. He can keep the money. Only way for him to make it right is to be a man and come clean and move on. If not, it's not a big deal I lose a friend over something stupid.

 

Now that I got the truth. Does the outcome of the provisional ruling now? If I was purposely mislead to think my ball went out of bounds. Does the forfeit rule still stands.

[antip]

Ruling does not change, ball was lost. But deliberately guiding a player away from their ball in search is misconduct, a breach of 1.2. The Committee can decide whether they wish to DQ the culprit(s) for serious breach and they can do so even after a competition is closed.

[oldmotor]

Nice guys! But the rule is the rule. Don’t think I’d play with those two again.

[jvincent]

In this scenario the best option would have been to play both balls and sort it out at after the round per rule 20.1c.

 

Off topic, I kind of miss that the two-ball rule was renumbered from 3-3.

[Ri_Redneck]

I would say to sum things up. Look in the suspected area where you could actually PLAY FROM first. OB doesn't help cause lost is lost. 

 

BT

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

I would say to sum things up. Look in the suspected area where you could actually PLAY FROM first. OB doesn't help cause lost is lost.

 

Yeah. I always wondered why people looked for their ball OB. Unless it's obvious that there's a ball, and you can save yourself the time if it's yours, just look IN bounds. Time spent searching for your ball OB is wasted time, because as you said, OB/lost are the same result. Finding your ball IN bounds is the only way the outcome can be improved.

[antip]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Yeah. I always wondered why people looked for their ball OB. Unless it's obvious that there's a ball, and you can save yourself the time if it's yours, just look IN bounds. Time spent searching for your ball OB is wasted time, because as you said, OB/lost are the same result. Finding your ball IN bounds is the only way the outcome can be improved.

Same applies when you've played a provisional to an okay spot and start search for the original. No point in searching in the places it would be unplayable from.

[Newby]

8 hours ago, antip said:

Same applies when you've played a provisional to an okay spot and start search for the original. No point in searching in the places it would be unplayable from.

But many spectators are inclined to do just that before the player has time to get to the area and make an assessment.

[antip]

2 minutes ago, Newby said:

But many spectators are inclined to do just that before the player has time to get to the area and make an assessment.

I don't recall a spectator ever helping me search for my ball.