Four-Ball Follies - What a mess

[2bGood]

Four-Ball Stroke Play Event (two man best ball stroke). Player A and B are partners. Player X and Y are partners.

 

Player A - can't find their ball after a tee shot. Player X and Y assist him in a 5min search. (Yes they did not know the rule changed)

Player B - is on the other side of the fairway (while the search is on) and hits his approach shot to '10 ft'.

 

Player B - calls over to the search group to ignore the search as he is good shape.

Player B - suffering from a 'code brown' heads to a near-by bathroom.

 

Players A,X & Y - stop searching "well before 5min".

 

Player A - later finds his ball about 20 yards from the green (having ran down the cart path).

Player A - plays his shot form 20 yards and is left with a tap in.

Player A - taps in for birdie. 

 

Player X - proceeds to hole out players B putt. Why? "Because it was in his way."

Player X - goes on to finish the hole with his own ball.

Player X - makes 'par' on his ball

 

Player B - returns as they are leaving the green to learn they already made a 'birdie' and did not need to putt.

Player B - is concerned that player A's ball might not be in play as he had "Declared it lost."(LOL).

Player B - replaces his ball and 2 putts for par

 

Player Y - makes 'bogie'

 

What are your ruling(s)?

What are the scores for each pair. 

Edited June 4, 2023 by 2bGood

[bcjim]

NM I misread this entirely.

Edited June 4, 2023 by bcjim

[Mr. Bean]

The information is not sufficient to give a solid ruling on every player but this is how it goes provided A's ball was searched for 3 minutes or more.

 

A has no score as his ball was lost and he played a wrong ball and did not hole out

B has 5 (4 talent strokes + 1 PS for lifting his ball without marking it)

X has 4. Hitting A's ball means nothing (but how could he hole out A's ball if A had already holed it out ("taps in for birdie" ???). One could argue that X was practicing if he deliberately aimed at the hole trying to sink A's ball. If that is the case he scored 6.

Y has 5

 

So team X+Y has scored a par (4) (with no practising penalties) on that hole and A+B has scored bogey (5).

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

55 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

The information is not sufficient to give a solid ruling on every player but this is how it goes provided A's ball was searched for 3 minutes or more.

 

A has no score as his ball was lost and he played a wrong ball and did not hole out

X has 4. Hitting A's ball means nothing (but how could he hole out A's ball if A had already holed it out ("taps in for birdie" ???). 

 

 

 

 

Some clarification.

 

- The search was for more than three minutes. When I spoke with the players they were adamant it was not "5 min". I asked them: "Was it more than 3min" - "Yes, but for sure not 5 minutes."😁 (funny thing is if they knew the rule was 3min, I am sure they would have said "for sure not more than 3min" as no one timed it.)

 

-I screwed up in the original post. X hit player B's ball. I updated this.

 

 I have to say I did send the players away and found a quite place to work this one out and I would not be shocked if I missed something in my ruling.

 

I will save my ruling for later.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, 2bGood said:

 

Some clarification.

 

- The search was for more than three minutes. When I spoke with the players they were adamant it was not "5 min". I asked them: "Was it more than 3min" - "Yes, but for sure not 5 minutes."😁 (funny thing is if they knew the rule was 3min, I am sure they would have said "for sure not more than 3min" as no one timed it.)

 

-I screwed up in the original post. X hit player B's ball. I updated this.

 

 

That changes B's score to par (4 strokes).

 

Afa X is concerned, B's ball was 10 feet away. Was holing out accidental or deliberate? If latter, that would have been practising and X's score would be 6.

 

A's and Y's scores stand as described.

[2bGood]

49 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That changes B's score to par (4 strokes).

 

Afa X is concerned, B's ball was 10 feet away. Was holing out accidental or deliberate? If latter, that would have been practising and X's score would be 6.

 

A's and Y's scores stand as described.

Here is what I did:

A - No score. Lost Ball. Never had a ball in play from the point the search went past 3min.

B - Gave a 4. X hit his ball, but Player B did everything by the book as far as I could tell. When his ball was hit by another player he did replace it and finished the hole.

 

There side scored 4

 

X - 4 talent strokes + general penalty of 2 strokes for hitting the wrong ball.  6

y - did everything by the book - scored 5

 

There side scored 5

 

For X he hit B's thinking it did not matter and assuming it was not in play. This is where I got stuck a bit. I did look to 6.5/1 as X was under the impression that the other side had finished the hole (though they had not) but I could not come up with any ruling that had Y score higher than 5 because of X's actions or X lower than 6 as I believed there to be two different breaches that would be assed a general penalty, so given the format I moved on and told them to score 5. 

 

Also I spent a bit of time pondering if X might be assessed a penalty for both practicing and wrong ball for total of 4 penalty strokes. I didn't go too far on this as I think 1.3c(4) would come in to play and not allow the penalties to stack . But as all that matters was if score was larger than 5 I did not pursue this. 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

50 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

X - 4 talent strokes + general penalty of 2 strokes for hitting the wrong ball.  6

...

...

For X he hit B's thinking it did not matter and assuming it was not in play.

 

The outcome is the same regardless which Rule we apply but ruling a wrong ball would mean X had the intention to actually play that ball which seems very unlikely to me in this context. But the practising comes into picture if he really tried to sink that ball, i.e. practise. Then again, a casual swing to remove that ball would not result in any penalty but you were there and can say what were his intentions like.

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Mr. Bean
typo

[larrybud]

"Player X - proceeds to hole out players B putt. Why? "Because it was in his way.""

 

WHAT????
 

Sounds like Player X CONCEDED player B's putt. That's my ruling.

Or Player X loses hole for playing wrong ball.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, larrybud said:

"Player X - proceeds to hole out players B putt. Why? "Because it was in his way.""

 

WHAT????
 

Sounds like Player X CONCEDED player B's putt. That's my ruling.

Or Player X loses hole for playing wrong ball.

 

Conceded in stroke play..? How many beers have you had?

[2bGood]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

The outcome is the same regardless which Rule we apply but ruling a wrong ball would mean X had the intention to actually play that ball which seems very unlikely to me in this context. But the practising comes into picture if he really tried to sink that ball, i.e. practise. Then again, a casual swing to remove that ball would not result in any penalty but you were there and can say what were his intentions like.

 

 

I would appreciate some education on this one. In the process I read everything I could on this.

For it to be a wrong ball it has to be:

• In Play under the definitions. Yes it was, even if he did not know it.
• A stroke has to be made under the definitions. Yes it was made, as it meets the definition and none the exceptions

I could not find anything in the rule or definitions that said it was is not wrong ball in stroke play, but I must of missed something.

 

 

6 hours ago, larrybud said:

"Player X - proceeds to hole out players B putt. Why? "Because it was in his way.""

 

WHAT????
 

Sounds like Player X CONCEDED player B's putt. That's my ruling.

Or Player X loses hole for playing wrong ball.

 

Yes they were a bit of gong show and ignorant of the rules. Regardless, as it was stroke play there was not option concede putts or lose a the hole. 

[Augster]

You have it correct.

 

A/B score B’s 4. X/Y score Y’s 5. 

 

Tell these people to read the Rules ONE TIME. They changed in 2019. They had the entire pandemic to read them, and then a couple years. It takes like 45 minutes to read the Rules that matter that govern casual play. 
 

 

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

I would appreciate some education on this one. In the process I read everything I could on this.

For it to be a wrong ball it has to be:

• In Play under the definitions. Yes it was, even if he did not know it.
• A stroke has to be made under the definitions. Yes it was made, as it meets the definition and none the exceptions

I could not find anything in the rule or definitions that said it was is not wrong ball in stroke play, but I must of missed something.

 

 

Did he play that ball believing it was his and trying to advance "his" ball when trying to score?

 

When you answer these questions you will see the light.

 

Perhaps it also helps to define what is a practice stroke. That is covered in 5.5a but what is missing from the current Rules is a former Decision distinguishing casual flicking of range balls back to the range and actual practice stroke. Once you concentrate and hit a range ball towards the range trying to simulate your real stroke you are practising. If X tried to sink B's ball he was practising, not playing a wrong ball as he did not think it was his ball and he did not try to sink his own ball.

 

Btw, where did you get that

 

" For it to be a wrong ball it has to be: In Play under the definitions."

 

from?

 

That is absolutely wrong. If you find a stray ball and make a stroke at it believing it is your own ball that ball is not in play and it is definitively a wrong ball.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Did he play that ball believing it was his and trying to advance "his" ball when trying to score?

 

When you answer these questions you will see the light.

 

Perhaps it also helps to define what is a practice stroke. That is covered in 5.5a but what is missing from the current Rules is a former Decision distinguishing casual flicking of range balls back to the range and actual practice stroke. Once you concentrate and hit a range ball towards the range trying to simulate your real stroke you are practising. If X tried to sink B's ball he was practising, not playing a wrong ball as he did not think it was his ball and he did not try to sink his own ball.

 

Btw, where did you get that

 

" For it to be a wrong ball it has to be: In Play under the definitions."

 

from?

 

That is absolutely wrong. If you find a stray ball and make a stroke at it believing it is your own ball that ball is not in play and it is definitively a wrong ball.

 

Did he believe he was trying to advance his ball? No. But where is this in the rules? I just can't find a reference to it in the rules or definitions that you need to believe a wrong ball is your ball. The Definition says ANY ball other than the players ball. I see your logic, but can find the rules that support it. In a practical way it may not matter as the penalty is the same.

 

5.5a was useful to look at. But you can break more than one rule at a time (even if you can't get more than on many penalty in most instances)

 

As for 'In Play' - it is in the definition as one of the examples of a wrong ball. A "stray ball" is also an example given.

 

 

c. Wrong Ball

(1) Making Stroke at Wrong Ball. A player must not make a stroke at a wrong ball.

Exception – Ball Moving in Water: There is no penalty if a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball that is moving in water in a penalty area or in temporary water:

• The stroke does not count, and

• The player must correct the mistake under the Rules by playing the right ball from its original spot or by taking relief under the Rules.

 

 

Wrong Ball (definition)

Any ball other than the player’s:

• Ball in play (whether the original ball or a substituted ball),

• Provisional ball (before it is abandoned under Rule 18.3c), or

• Second ball in stroke play played under Rules 14.7b or 20.1c.

Examples of a wrong ball are:

• Another player’s ball in play.

• A stray ball, and

• The player’s own ball that is out of bounds, has become lost or has been lifted and not yet put back in play.

 

 

Stroke (definition)

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

But a stroke has not been made if the player:

• Decides during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball or, if unable to stop, by deliberately missing the ball.

• Accidentally strikes the ball when making a practice swing or while preparing to make a stroke.

When the Rules refer to “playing a ball,” it means the same as making a stroke.

The player’s score for a hole or a round is described as a number of “strokes” or “strokes taken”, which means both all strokes made and any penalty strokes (see Rule 3.1c).

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Did he believe he was trying to advance his ball? No. But where is this in the rules?

 

This seems to be one of those things one just needs to know and it helps having studied the Decisions in the past years as there was a lot of material linking the Rules with logic. Also it helps to distinguish playing a wrong ball and practising.

 

To play a ball in my understanding is an attempt to advance it towards the hole or at least to a spot from where the next stroke is to be performed, again in order to advance the ball towards the hole. In fact, "to play golf" simply means making strokes at your own ball in order to hole it. Hitting random balls with no such goal is not "playing" but practising.

[davep043]

3 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Did he believe he was trying to advance his ball? No. But where is this in the rules?

 

3 hours ago, 2bGood said:

The forward movement of the club made to strike the ball.

This may be a case where the use of "THE ball" in the definition of Stroke makes a difference.  THE ball means the Player's ball, as opposed to A ball.  This distinction also occurs with bunkers, there are a number of things you are not allowed to do in THE bunker, the bunker in which your ball rests, but that aren't penalized in any other bunker.  

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

Also it helps to distinguish playing a wrong ball and practising.

Agree, and again, when a player makes a stroke at a stroke at a Wrong Ball, he does so in the believe that it is THE ball, his own ball in play.  A practice stroke is made at A ball.

[Mr. Bean]

Aren't I glad we do not have articles in our language... or gender pronouns... sooooo much easier.

 

Thank You, Dave, spot on!!

[Augster]

2bGood has convinced me. The player played a wrong ball instead of practice. 
 

“Examples of a wrong ball are: Another player’s ball in play.”

 

Pretty much sums it up for me. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

2bGood has convinced me. The player played a wrong ball instead of practice. 
 

“Examples of a wrong ball are: Another player’s ball in play.”

 

Pretty much sums it up for me. 

 

So,,, you did not read Dave's post? Or do you not believe what he wrote?

 

Augster, once again it is all about intent. Did X intend to hole out believing B's ball was HIS ball? Or did he intend to practise with B's ball knowing it was B's ball (or knowing it was not HIS ball)?

 

Once you answer those two questions you will reach the finish.

[Mr. Bean]

16 hours ago, davep043 said:

 

This may be a case where the use of "THE ball" in the definition of Stroke makes a difference.  THE ball means the Player's ball, as opposed to A ball. 

 

Having read this a few times I would say that THE ball means a ball the player BELIEVES is theirs. If this was not the case then a stroke at a wrong ball would not be a stroke at all but it is a stroke because the player believes they are making a stroke at THEIR ball.

 

In the same Definition it says "When the Rules refer to 'playing a ball' it means the same as making a stroke." 

 

Thus when a player is playing a ball the player is not practising and vice versa.

 

In my eyes this is perfectly clear. A player is playing their ball in order to make a score, just as described in Rule 1. Whenever a player is not trying to score it is not possible to play a wrong ball.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

Related to this discussion there is this notorious example of playing a wrong ball.

 

A player marks and lifts his ball on the putting green and sets it 20 cm aside. When it is his turn to play he completely forgets that he has marked his ball and set it aside and makes a stroke at his ball trying to sink that putt.

 

As that ball was not in play it was a wrong ball. But the fact that he made a stroke at it with the intent of sinking it (i.e. trying to score) makes him in breach of making a stroke at a wrong ball.

 

I hope we are done here.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Mr. Bean
typo

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Having read this a few times I would say that THE ball means a ball the player BELIEVES is theirs. If this was not the case then a stroke at a wrong ball would not be a stroke at all but it is a stroke because the player believes they are making a stroke at THEIR ball.

 

In the same Definition it says "When the Rules refer to 'playing a ball' it means the same as making a stroke." 

 

Thus when a player is playing a ball the player is not practising and vice versa.

 

In my eyes this is perfectly clear. A player is playing their ball in order to make a score, just as described in Rule 1. Whenever a player is not trying to score it is not possible to play a wrong ball.

 

The issue with this line of argument is you have to important something into the rules that is not there. The is nothing in the rules the defines THE ball or talks about about a believing. 

 

I am not really arguing against you, but just trying to validate what you are saying by reading the text in the rules and I haven't been able to do that. 

 

The rules use the term THEIR ball, THE ball, THAT ball and A ball. I  thought I saw a semi pattern where A ball is used for ball not in play and THE ball is used for ball in play, but it does not hold up if you keep reading rules and the use of A and THE seems to be more a matter grammar than intended to have additional meaning.

 

Example:

• The ball is not in play until the player makes a stroke at it, and

• The ball may be lifted or moved without penalty before the stroke is made.

If the pattern held up this should read A ball is not in play.... as The ball being spoke about is not in play.

 

Of course the wrong ball rule use both the term A and THE...

 

(1) Making Stroke at Wrong Ball. A player must not make a stroke at A wrong ball.

• The stroke made with the wrong ball and any more strokes before the mistake is corrected (including strokes made and any additional penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count.

 

Believe me Mr Bean, I do appreciate and like your logic here and  I am trying to validate your opinion , but I can't find the facts to do it (yet). 

Edited June 6, 2023 by 2bGood

[Klubster]

About half way through, I decided to disqualify everybody.

[Mr. Bean]

52 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Of course the wrong ball rule use both the term A and THE...

 

(1) Making Stroke at Wrong Ball. A player must not make a stroke at A wrong ball.

• The stroke made with the wrong ball and any more strokes before the mistake is corrected (including strokes made and any additional penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count.

 

Believe Mr Bean, I appreciate and like your logic here and  I am trying to validate your opinion , but I can't find the facts to do it (yet). 

 

I must say you have been thorough in your quest, well done!

 

Now, 

 

"A player must not make a stroke at A wrong ball."

 

Indeed. Any wrong ball as there are many around.

 

"The stroke made with the wrong ball"

 

And here's the key: THE wrong ball. A player has chosen a ball they believes is theirs thus it is THE ball.

 

I thank you as this has forced me to explere not only the Rules but my own knowledge and how to support my own view. I believe I have done a good job and so have you. In my eyes this is a win-win, but only as soon as you tell me that you are ready to accept my point of view 😉

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I must say you have been thorough in your quest, well done!

 

Now, 

 

"A player must not make a stroke at A wrong ball."

 

Indeed. Any wrong ball as there are many around.

 

"The stroke made with the wrong ball"

 

And here's the key: THE wrong ball. A player has chosen a ball they believes is theirs thus it is THE ball.

 

I thank you as this has forced me to explere not only the Rules but my own knowledge and how to support my own view. I believe I have done a good job and so have you. In my eyes this is a win-win, but only as soon as you tell me that you are ready to accept my point of view 😉

Yes that concept holds up in isolation and I like it, but other instance in the rules this idea does not  hold up  as meaning of THE and A are used in other ways in the rules. THE ball can actually be any ball in some parts of the rules. (ie 6.2 above).

 

14.3b is another example as it refers to the ball being dropped as both A ball and THE ball. If the logic held up it would A ball until it was dropped and in play and then be THE ball once in place. But that is not how it is written. This leads me to stay with the idea that THE and A have no special meaning in the rules. (fun eh). 

 

This Rule applies whenever a player must drop a ball in taking relief under a Rule, including when the player must complete taking relief by placing a ball under Rule 14.3c(2).

If the player improves the relief area before or when dropping a ball, see Rule 8.1.

a. Original Ball or Another Ball May Be Used

The player may use the original ball or another ball.

This means that the player may use any ball each time they drop  or place a ball under this Rule.

b. Ball Must Be Dropped in Right Way

The player must drop a ball in the right way, which means meeting all the requirements in (1), (2) and (3):

(1) Player Must Drop Ball. The ball must be dropped only by the player. Neither the player’s caddie nor anyone else may do so.

See Rules 25.2h, 25.3c and 25.4a (for players with certain disabilities, modification of Rule 14.3b(1) allows the player to give general authorization to any other person to drop the player’s ball).

(2) Ball Must Be Dropped Straight Down from Knee Height Without Touching Player or Equipment. The player must let go of the ball from a location at knee height so that the ball:

• Falls straight down, without the player throwing, spinning or rolling it or using any other motion that might affect where the ball will come to rest, and

• Does not touch any part of the player’s body or equipment before it hits the ground. 

 

I will just add, when I read the rules I can't find an instance where "A ball" is used to refer to a ball in play (but I have not read everything). When I read the rules I see that normally "The Ball" refers to a ball in play, but there is also several instance where it refers to a ball not in play. 

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

Ok, let us agree to disagree. Just wish to say that you cannot use all the Rules to support/overrule one single Rule as there are so many different threads in the Rules.

 

In the end, it all comes down to understanding what is the meaning behind each Rule.

[2bGood]

I will just add, when I read the rules I can't find an instance where "A ball" is used to refer to a ball in play (but I have not read everything). When I read the rules I see that normally "The Ball" refers to a ball in play, but there is also several instance where it refers to a ball not in play. 

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Ok, let us agree to disagree. Just wish to say that you cannot use all the Rules to support/overrule one single Rule as there are so many different threads in the Rules.

 

In the end, it all comes down to understanding what is the meaning behind each Rule.

I can't agree to that 😉.

 

I actually agree with you, I just can prove that you are correct. If that makes sense.

[Augster]

Don’t sway 2bGood. 🙂

 

Definition of wrong ball: ANY ball in play other than the player’s ball in play. 
 

Example of a wrong ball: Another player’s ball in play. 
 

In section 5.5, Practice during a round, firstly, there is no definition of “practice”. Secondly, if 5.5 wanted another players ball in play included as practice it would have shown up in 5.5. It does not. 
 

Hitting another players ball in play is playing a wrong ball. Intentional or unintentional. 
 

One could make the case that intentionally, knowingly, putting out another player’s ball in play is a 1.2 violation. But I’m not convinced it’s practice. Especially since “practice” doesn’t have a definition. 

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I will just add, when I read the rules I can't find an instance where "A ball" is used to refer to a ball in play (but I have not read everything). When I read the rules I see that normally "The Ball" refers to a ball in play, but there is also several instance where it refers to a ball not in play. 

 

Try 14.1a first sentence.

[Mr. Bean]

9 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I can't agree to that 😉.

 

I actually agree with you, I just can prove that you are correct. If that makes sense.

 

Rule 6.3c says in part "... before the mistake is corrected..."

 

What might that mistake be..? Could it be mistakinly making a stroke at a ball one thinks of theirs..?

 

At least mistake does not quite fit to making a practice stroke.