Four-Ball Follies - What a mess

[2bGood]

On 6/6/2023 at 10:49 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

Try 14.1a first sentence.

Yes another example of A and THE do not seem to have additional meaning. 😁 The same ball is referred to as both in one sentence. The ball is in play throughout 14.1a, but before lifting it, it is called A ball and after The ball. Even funnier in the fist sentence in rule 14.1 is used THE Ball to described The ball before lifted. I am fully convinced now A and THE mean nothing special in the ROG

 

14.1

This Rule applies to the deliberate “lifting” of a player’s ball at rest. This may be done in any way, which includes picking up the ball by hand, rotating it or otherwise deliberately causing it to move from its spot.

 

14.1a

Before lifting a ball under a Rule requiring the ball to be replaced on its original spot, the player must mark the spot which means to:

 

 

[2bGood]

On 6/6/2023 at 5:29 PM, Augster said:

Don’t sway 2bGood. 🙂

 

Definition of wrong ball: ANY ball in play other than the player’s ball in play. 
 

Example of a wrong ball: Another player’s ball in play. 
 

In section 5.5, Practice during a round, firstly, there is no definition of “practice”. Secondly, if 5.5 wanted another players ball in play included as practice it would have shown up in 5.5. It does not. 
 

Hitting another players ball in play is playing a wrong ball. Intentional or unintentional. 
 

One could make the case that intentionally, knowingly, putting out another player’s ball in play is a 1.2 violation. But I’m not convinced it’s practice. Especially since “practice” doesn’t have a definition. 

I got lost in the vortex of the PIF PGAT merger. None the less I don't think there anything left to advance here. It will be great debate (with meaningless consequences) that is never settled.

 

Some good came out of it as it caused me to do another read of the rules, which is always helpful. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

Yes another example of A and THE do not seem to have additional meaning. 😁 The same ball is referred to as both in one sentence. The ball is in play throughout 14.1a, but before lifting it, it is called A ball and after The ball.

 

Yes, it is, but you wrote before:

 

"when I read the rules I can't find an instance where "A ball" is used to refer to a ball in play"

 

So I chose to find you one Rule 😉

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, 2bGood said:

 It will be great debate (with meaningless consequences) that is never settled.

 

 

I can tell you that it is very much settled among those who have chosen to understand the difference between a wrong ball and making a practice stroke.

[Augster]

A “practice stroke” isn’t even defined in the ROG. It’s deliberately vague and open ended. 
 

A “wrong ball” is defined in the ROG. It’s very specific and pointed. Playing another player’s ball is playing a wrong ball.  No ambiguity whatsoever. 

[tatertot]

A. Hope it's a charity event

B. Steal everyone's drink ticket

C. Flag down the drink cart

D. Get a headstart to forgetting the entire thing ever happend

[Mr. Bean]

19 hours ago, Augster said:

A “practice stroke” isn’t even defined in the ROG. It’s deliberately vague and open ended. 
 

A “wrong ball” is defined in the ROG. It’s very specific and pointed. Playing another player’s ball is playing a wrong ball.  No ambiguity whatsoever. 

 

Unfortunately you are looking at this issue with a very narrow perspective.

 

The definition also says that a player's own ball is a wrong ball when lifted and not yet put back to play. Now tell me, if I have lifted my ball on the putting green and while waiting for my turn to play start putting around with that ball aiming to various spots. Am I playing a wrong ball or am I practising?

[2bGood]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Am I playing a wrong ball or am I practising?

Yes.

 

Both would be true no need for the "or". 

Edited June 12, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Yes.

 

Both would be true no need for the "or". 

 

Can you then describe me a case where I would be practising and not playing a wrong ball?

[2bGood]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Can you then describe me a case where I would be practising and not playing a wrong ball?

A players shows up early for a stroke play competition and plays a hole. 

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

A players shows up early for a stroke play competition and plays a hole. 

 

Indeed. What about practising during play of hole?

[2bGood]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Indeed. What about practising during play of hole?

The practice tee is near the a fairway with stray balls in the area. A player decides to hit those "range" balls and they are doing it for practice and not solely as a courtesy. 

 

Not this is wrong (see below - wrong ball includes any "stray balls")

Edited June 12, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

28 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

The practice tee is near the a fairway with stray balls in the area. A player decides to hit those "range" balls and they are doing it for practice and not solely as courtesy. 

 

Good!!!

 

So, hitting a stray ball is not always playing a wrong ball even though the Definition says stray balls are wrong balls. Now we are getting somewhere.

 

Let us grab some text from the beginning of R5.5a:

 

"While playing a hole, a player must not make a practice stroke at any ball on or off the course."

 

So, "at any ball". Sounds like any ball might be used for practising.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

49 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Good!!!

 

So, hitting a stray ball is not always playing a wrong ball even though the Definition says stray balls are wrong balls. Now we are getting somewhere.

 

Let us grab some text from the beginning of R5.5a:

 

"While playing a hole, a player must not make a practice stroke at any ball on or off the course."

 

So, "at any ball". Sounds like any ball might be used for practising.

 

You got me. I was wrong, as under the definitions playing 'a stray' range ball is considered a wrong ball. So hitting a range ball for practice is both a wrong ball and a practice stroke. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

5 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

You got me. I was wrong, as under the definitions playing 'a stray' range ball is considered a wrong ball. So hitting a range ball for practice is both a wrong ball and a practice stroke. 

 

 

No, no and no.

 

Practising is making a stroke with no intention of scoring. Playing a wrong ball is part of the process of trying to score (i.e. the player believes the ball they are making a stroke at is theirs). If that was not the case then Rule 5.5a would be completely futile.

 

I hope you will see the light later on, I am done with my explanations. Thank you for participating.

[Augster]

Another player’s ball is not a stray ball. It is “another player’s ball”. Since it is “another player’s ball”, it is a wrong ball by definition. 
 

It’s purely golf semantics. The penalty is the same for wrong ball and practice during a round. (“Practice” is not a defined term.)

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

Another player’s ball is not a stray ball. It is “another player’s ball”. Since it is “another player’s ball”, it is a wrong ball by definition. 
 

It’s purely golf semantics. The penalty is the same for wrong ball and practice during a round. (“Practice” is not a defined term.)

 

Rule 5.5a:

 

"These are not practice strokes:

• Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy."

 

As another player's ball is a wrong ball by definition a player hitting another player's ball back to them has made a stroke at a wrong ball and gets the general penalty. The result is the same even if that ball was no longer in play.

 

Thanks, now I know.

 

(It is no longer semantics, one is not practising but still gets the penalty, right?)

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

I've been away on holiday but doesn't this say it all?

 

Examples of a wrong ball are:

• Another player’s ball in play.

These are not practice strokes:

• Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy."

Edited June 13, 2023 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

I've been away on holiday but doesn't this say it all?

 

Examples of a wrong ball are:

• Another player’s ball in play.

These are not practice strokes:

• Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy."

 

You have been on holiday way too long. Try reading the entire thread.

 

FWIW, it is possible to hit another player's ball in play to that player as a courtesy (for example a putt too short/long and in the USGA model "given"). That is why I took it up but it seems I should have drafted an explanation. Then again, none of my explanations have reached the target so why should I have bothered..?

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You have been on holiday way too long. Try reading the entire thread.

 

13 hours ago, Newby said:

I've been away on holiday but doesn't this say it all?

 

Examples of a wrong ball are:

• Another player’s ball in play.

These are not practice strokes:

• Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy."

 

Don't do it newby.

 

The OP was different than it is now, witness Mr B's very first post with a lot of "mistakes" because he was referring to the original 2bgood post and not the one that's there now.

 

From that point on, the original situation is less than clear; just 2 guys arguing about what the meaning of "is" is. Or rather "a ball" vs "the ball".

 

One would think they'd both know, when using "a" and "the", 2 of the most used words in the English language, CONTEXT matters. 

[Augster]

14 hours ago, Newby said:

I've been away on holiday but doesn't this say it all?

 

Examples of a wrong ball are:

• Another player’s ball in play.

These are not practice strokes:

• Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy."

Yes it does. 
 

I have no idea why it’d be considered practice and not wrong ball. There is no mention of “accidental vs. intentional” in the Rules that turns playing another player’s ball in play from a wrong ball to practice. 
 

There is only the definition of Wrong Ball. Where the first item mentioned is “Another player’s ball in play”. 
 

“Practice? We talkin’ ‘bout practice? Practice?”- A.I.

[2bGood]

Since we having some fun now.

 

Scenario:

 

In stroke play, player A hits player's B ball that is in play to player B out of courtesy believing the ball is not in play.

 

Ruling?

 

9.6 makes it clear there is no penalty for Player B providing they replace the ball. 

But is this another case of wrong ball penalty for Player A? 

 

What has me caught a bit is in match play, this would be a one stroke penalty under rule 9.5 for Player A. 

 

To be clear this scenario is different than the OP. 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

19 hours ago, Newby said:

I've been away on holiday but doesn't this say it all?

 

Examples of a wrong ball are:

• Another player’s ball in play.

These are not practice strokes:

• Hitting a ball back to a practice area or to another player, when done solely as a courtesy."

 

So, in four ball stroke play team A-B has A's ball one foot from the hole lying 2 and B's ball is on the fairway lying 4 some tens of meters away from B but at the feet of player C. B asks C to hit his ball (in play!!!) to him as it is clear his score will not count. As a referee you would give player C 2 penalty strokes for playing a wrong ball, is that it? 

 

Another example: Player A hit his drive OB and hits another on the fairway. Player B hits his drive in bounds but very close to A's ball.

 

A: Would you care to chip my ball to me while you are there?

B: Sure, no problem! 

 

Player B chips A's ball to A. As A's ball was out of bounds and by definition a wrong ball you would give B 2 PS for playing a wrong ball, right?

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Since we having some fun now.

 

Scenario:

 

In stroke play, player A hits player's B ball that is in play to player B out of courtesy believing the ball is not in play.

 

Ruling?

 

9.6 makes it clear there is no penalty for Player B providing they replace the ball. 

But is this another case of wrong ball penalty for Player A? 

 

What has me caught a bit is in match play, this would be a one stroke penalty under rule 9.5 for Player A. 

 

To be clear this scenario is different than the OP. 

 

 

 

Now you are mixing yourself already...

 

If you (incorrectly, may I say) think that act is playing a wrong ball then the outcome would be the same in SP and in MP, general penalty. Why would you think it would differ?

 

As for the ruling, in SP no penalty as per R9.6 and in MP one stroke penalty as per R9.5.

 

Oh, btw, what makes this scenario different from OP scenario? In both cases the player thinks he is making a stroke at a ball that is not in play but is in play. So, if you think the scdenarios are diffrerent then the ruling must be different. So what would be your rulings in both scenarios and which Rules you base them on?

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Mr. Bean]

I just visited our National Association office to pick up some gear for the forthcoming comp this weekend and met our head of local PGA organisation, a long-term international referee. I presented the original case to him and asked for a ruling. He said:

 

"Provided the player was really aiming at the hole and not just moving the ball out of the way with his club the player gets a penalty for practising during play of hole."

 

I encourage @Aurster, @nsxguy and @2bGood to present this case to USGA and ask their opinion. Also ask USGA what is the difference between practising and playing a wrong ball.

[2bGood]

9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Now you are mixing yourself already...

 

If you (incorrectly, may I say) think that act is playing a wrong ball then the outcome would be the same in SP and in MP, general penalty. Why would you think it would differ?

 

As for the ruling, in SP no penalty as per R9.6 and in MP one stroke penalty as per R9.5.

 

Oh, btw, what makes this scenario different from OP scenario? In both cases the player thinks he is making a stroke at a ball that is not in play but is in play. So, if you think the scdenarios are diffrerent then the ruling must be different. So what would be your rulings in both scenarios and which Rules you base them on?

 

 

 

Mr. B You keep thinking I am arguing against you. I am not. I am exploring the rules in search of truth.

 

To your question. The major difference in the OP, is the player did not hit the ball as a courtesy. They played a shot at the hole. 

 

but to your point... why do you think I posted this information? It does complicate matters as it creates a similar situation with a different result. In the case of Match play the result is neither 'practice' or 'wrong ball'.

Edited June 14, 2023 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, 2bGood said:

1) Mr. B You keep thinking I am arguing against you. I am not. I am exploring the rules in search of truth.

 

2) To your question. The major difference in OP, is the player did not hit the ball as a courtesy. They played a shot at the hole. 

 

3) but to your point... why do you think I posted this information? It does complicate matters as it creates a similar situation with a different result. In the case of Match play the result is neither 'practice' or 'wrong ball'.

 

1) I certainly get that impression...

 

2) Yes, but he had no intention of hitting the ball he believes is his. That is the key, INTENT. His intention was to practise and that gives him a penalty.

 

3) What gives you the idea it would be different in stroke play? The player had NO INTENTION of playing that ball as his own. That is the key, believe me. Or get the ruling from USGA. The outcome will be the same.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[2bGood]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

3) What gives you the idea it would be different in stroke play? The player had NO INTENTION of playing that ball as his own. That is the key, believe me. Or get the ruling from USGA. The outcome will be the same.

 

 

What gives me the idea it would different in stroke vs match play is that rule 9.5 and 9.6 are different. 9.5 clearly says it is a one stroke penalty in match play for the action but rule 9.6 does not list any penalty for the action itself in stroke play, but does refer to playing a wrong ball. 

 

Where I am now is there are at least three options for a ruling for hitting a ball that is not yours that is in play during stroke play.

1. Wrong Ball - 6.3 (2 strokes)

2.Practice - 5.2 (2 strokes)

3. Ball Lifted or moved.. 9.6 (no penalty listed, but refers to wrong ball in the rule as an option to look at)

[Mr. Bean]

49 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

What gives me the idea it would different in stroke vs match play is that rule 9.5 and 9.6 are different. 9.5 clearly says it is a one stroke penalty in match play for the action but rule 9.6 does not list any penalty for the action itself in stroke play, but does refer to playing a wrong ball. 

 

Where I am now is there are at least three options for a ruling for hitting a ball that is not yours that is in play during stroke play.

1. Wrong Ball - 6.3 (2 strokes)

2.Practice - 5.2 (2 strokes)

3. Ball Lifted or moved.. 9.6 (no penalty listed, but refers to wrong ball in the rule as an option to look at)

 

Do yourself a favor and check old Decisions 7-2/5 and 7-2/5.5 from 2016-17 Decisions Book. I have them here in a pdf-file but cannot copy paste them. The outcome has not changed and especially the /5 may be an eye-opener for you as it deals with hitting range balls back to the range. The Decision does not mention wrong ball anywhere and /5.5 is following the suit. No wrong ball, just practising or no practising.

 

Afa your scenario is concerned the reference to wrong ball in 9.6 is there only because one can more easily find the correct Rule to apply if one's ball has been played by another player as a wrong ball. It has absolutely nothing to do with your scenario in which the ruling is no penalty to anyone in stroke play and 1 PS for the player who moved their opponent's ball in match play. No wrong ball, no practising.

 

Oh, one more thing. It does not matter what kind of ball is in the scenario. It could be another player's ball in play, it could be a stray ball, a range ball, it could be player's own ball out of bounds, it simply does not matter, the ruling has to be the same. So once you read those Decisions you will understand. I hope.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[Nels55]

On 6/6/2023 at 1:07 PM, 2bGood said:

I can't agree to that 😉.

 

I actually agree with you, I just can prove that you are correct. If that makes sense.

Why not email the USGA and see what they say?