Anyone Completely Change Their Game/Scores with Mental Work?

[MelloYello]

People should make decisions for themselves and try their best to avoid asking for the one-size-fits-all solutions or otherwise secret wisdom. At the end of the day, that's just typical human laziness--path of least resistance stuff. 

 

People try and over-simplify everything. They do it with all complicated things. They try and draw comparisons. They try to develop simple models in their head. 

 

If you think you're going to improve because of a shift in perspective and you truly believe it'll have some trickle-down effect that ultimately revolutionizes how you play...go for it. 

 

If you honestly believe that, try it out. I think what internet posting indicates in the aggregate is that almost everything in golf requires some effort from the mental side and so it largely depends on how you define things. 

 

Golf is a game and so it's undoubtedly influenced by your mental approach.

 

But it's also an activity, maybe even a sport, and so your performance is defined by physical action. 

 

Trying to separate those is kind of a fool's errand and at the end of the day, what would be the point anyway?

 

 

.

Edited June 20, 2023 by MelloYello

[RoyalTroon]

“For this game you need, above all things, to be in a tranquil frame of mind."   Vardon

[Hawkeye77]

5 hours ago, Pretzel said:
 

There’s a reason many pros got to where they are/were by “grinding it out of the dirt” just practicing and practicing until they got to where they are now. There’s also a reason precisely zero pros got to where they are by sitting around thinking about golf and how they will avoid mental errors, or planning out course strategy without actually practicing.

In the end you are juxtaposing two extremes after talking in circles. 
 

They all perform thousands of reps, lol. 

[me05501]

In any activity there are things that actively help and things that can't hurt. Sometimes it's hard to know the difference. 

 

Rotella explains how being focused intently on a very specific target helps us tap into our subconscious ability. In his estimation we humans can overcome our physical performance limitations by turning off our conscious/anxious brain and tapping into our subconscious/reactive lizard brain.  

 

Is this true? Does it actively help? I dunno. I'm not a scientist. I've had good results with it in every facet of my game but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone. 

 

Can it hurt to be extra focused on our target? Seems unlikely. I haven't found any downside so far. 

[Lefty_3Jack]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

 

No 😄 They are not.

 

I also don't agree with the Rotella stuff about not thinking "don't" as in "don't hit it there" and "don't even look at the water because your mind can't tell the difference between do and don't." I think that's all bogus. Your mind can know the difference, and just thinking "okay, there's water right here" doesn't make you more likely to hit it there.

I'd ask both you and Bob Rotella where your opinion comes from whether your mind being able to or not being able to know the difference between "don't do this" or "do this".  Are they both opinions or have either of you seen any data on how the brain acts?  I tend to agree that my mind is smart enough to discern the difference between don't and do, but I've also heard multiple people say what he's said and it had to come from somewhere, even if distorted.  

[Lefty_3Jack]

There are too many examples around sports and people who perform well at the highest levels to say their physical ability just shined brighter on those days, time after time.  There are also examples of players who underperformed their career averages in big spots that would point towards being mentally tough being a real skill/attribute that some have and some don't. 

 

I don't know how anyone can see Brooks Koepka can perform so much better, on average than anyone else in golf in majors.  Is it just variance that hasn't had time to take place yet?  Tiger Woods won 6 times in 2009 and didn't win another event for 2 years after his personal life got exposed.  You can call it the leg, but he won 6 times on that leg prior to getting chased out of his driveway with a golf club.  All of a sudden he was withdrawing event after event until he started to get right in 2012-2013.  

Edited June 20, 2023 by Lefty_3Jack

[Hawkeye77]

43 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

There are too many examples around sports and people who perform well at the highest levels to say their physical ability just shined brighter on those days, time after time.  There are also examples of players who underperformed their career averages in big spots that would point towards being mentally tough being a real skill/attribute that some have and some don't. 

 

I don't know how anyone can see Brooks Koepka can perform so much better, on average than anyone else in golf in majors.  Is it just variance that hasn't had time to take place yet?  Tiger Woods won 6 times in 2009 and didn't win another event for 2 years after his personal life got exposed.  You can call it the leg, but he won 6 times on that leg prior to getting chased out of his driveway with a golf club.  All of a sudden he was withdrawing event after event until he started to get right in 2012-2013.  

And we have to bring up Tiger's personal life? "You can call it the leg?" Jeez, his physical issues were plenty real, let's keep it to what you are concerned about?

[Lefty_3Jack]

46 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

And we have to bring up Tiger's personal life? "You can call it the leg?" Jeez, his physical issues were plenty real, let's keep it to what you are concerned about?

There was no judgement one way or the other. I made the point he won 6 times after breaking his leg and the drop off happened after November 2009. Those are both factual, agnostic points. 

[MelloYello]

12 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

There was no judgement one way or the other. I made the point he won 6 times after breaking his leg and the drop off happened after November 2009. Those are both factual, agnostic points. 

 

I think it would be better if people tried to speak more openly about their own experience rather than interpreting someone else's history--particularly that of a secretive professional who we know very little about. 

 

The OP's question was about who here had seen improvement through mental adjustments. 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

There was no judgement one way or the other. I made the point he won 6 times after breaking his leg and the drop off happened after November 2009. Those are both factual, agnostic points. 

Which have nothing to do with your looking into whether you can change your game with mental work, which is the topic at hand and seems to be pretty interesting. And wasn't presented "agnostically", lol.

 

He won in 2009 after missing two months in 2008 because of knee surgery, winning the US Open with fractures and a bad knee, and missing the rest of the season and two more months after more serious knee surgery following the US Open.  I'd call surgeries and not being able to play a drop off.  Yep, he spiraled down after the personal stuff, no big surprise there.  None of which really has anything to do with the "mental game" in any traditional sense, that's just plain personal crisis however you want to categorize it, no metrics for that.

[ferrispgm]

10 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

Put me in the camp that mental game is over-rated and is a separator between two people of almost the same ability.

 

I think Tiger's mental game was really good obviously, he wasn't at all scared of winning, wouldn't (hardly) make mental mistakes down the stretch and he was willing to grind his tail off to make the cut during his bad weeks.

 

However, in his prime years he was there or thereabouts as the best driver of the ball, the best iron player, close to or best short game and close to or best putter. Justin Rose for example couldn't sniff the jockstrap of Tiger's all round game, as good a player as Rose was.

That's pretty much my point.  He was obviously more skilled than other players but how many times did he have to grind out a cut made when he was playing like crap? How many times did he stand on a hole that he missed wide right on the first 3 days and stripe it down the middle when in the lead and needing  a par?  Or in his case, grind out a win when he wasn't swinging or putting well? The effect of the mind on human performance is huge at that level.  That being said, IMO the worse your swing is, the less important mental game is relative to the swing. 

[PracticeSwinger]

If we take Justin Thomas latest struggles where he stated that we went looking for added speed / distance and that the game is pretty humbling (while we had seen him grinding his way back to a PGA Championship just a couple years ago). Are those struggles related to physical ‘limitations’ and/or mental toughness ? … genuinely asking, I have no idea 

[RoyalTroon]

4 hours ago, MelloYello said:

Golf is a game and so it's undoubtedly influenced by your mental approach.

 

But it's also an activity, maybe even a sport, and so your performance is defined by physical action.

 

It is a sport, we're the game.

[Lefty_3Jack]

48 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I think it would be better if people tried to speak more openly about their own experience rather than interpreting someone else's history--particularly that of a secretive professional who we know very little about. 

 

The OP's question was about who here had seen improvement through mental adjustments. 

 

 

I am the OP and it was in response to others who brought up your players duty Tiger being one of them. My OP was asking others if they have made big strides in scores after focusing on the mental portion of the game. 

[Long_Left]

On 6/18/2023 at 3:15 PM, Lefty_3Jack said:

What I’m hearing is it’s more how solid your swing is vs being mentally solid. Or that a sound mental game won’t allow you to outplay your swing deficiencies.
 

I already pick conservative targets, don't try to hit shots I have a slim chance of pulling off, etc. I’ll pitch out, layup on a Par 4 when I’m stuck and try to avoid a 6 or worse. I don’t believe I could get better in that portion of the game.
 

The game speeds up for me out on the course and I have a lot of negative thoughts over the ball. My swing isn’t horrible, but being realistic it’s probably on the bad end for my handicap. Im prone to the heel/shanks and it has shaped the thoughts over the ball since I started playing. Being as honest as I can with myself, the fear of the heel and overall bad results affects my game out on the course.

I had (still do at times) a bad case of "squirrel brain" on course as well. Tons of random thoughts with most of them being negative standing over the ball.

 

There are two things I do on and off course now that have helped a ton, as always, your mileage may vary.

 

1) Lean into the negative... "Golf Psychology When Positive Thinking Doesn't Work" By Jonathan Adler is a good listen/read. The theory is that the negative thoughts and nerves don't actually change performance, just your perception of outcomes. This is purely the mental side of the coin but the book resonated with me as I've never been a "smile through the pain" guy. Semi-related to DECADE work, pick the target where more of your misses will finish playable. This requires that you know your dispersion patterns, which you already probably do.

 

2) You have a shot that you can count on, even if you loathe the shot. For me it's a mile high blocked fade, (lefty, hence the tag). Embrace this shot, hit it under stress, learn to love it, practice it on the range. You know that you can hit this shot, you know what it feels like, so use it. Maybe it isn't pretty, but it works. Once I started using my "miss" as a go to shot, it became infinitely easier to quiet my mind over the ball. Confidence is confidence, even if you're confident of "failure" it is easier to get your head right. After 10ish rounds of hitting it on purpose and some range time, I found that I'm able to commit myself to whatever my chosen shot is without much effort because I've done enough to match my thoughts with the results. I'm no superstar player, but the outlier rounds where my differential is triple my CH are MUCH rarer.

 

3/5 rounds last week below differential on travel golf, all new courses, in heated competition against lifelong friends who want me to fail, in the nicest possible way. Embrace the chaos and own it.

 

[Lefty_3Jack]

56 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Which have nothing to do with your looking into whether you can change your game with mental work, which is the topic at hand and seems to be pretty interesting. And wasn't presented "agnostically", lol.

 

He won in 2009 after missing two months in 2008 because of knee surgery, winning the US Open with fractures and a bad knee, and missing the rest of the season and two more months after more serious knee surgery following the US Open.  I'd call surgeries and not being able to play a drop off.  Yep, he spiraled down after the personal stuff, no big surprise there.  None of which really has anything to do with the "mental game" in any traditional sense, that's just plain personal crisis however you want to categorize it, no metrics for that.

If you feel the need to feverishly defend Tiger Woods please direct your anger towards Erik and Forged4Ever for bringing in tour players. They brought it up, Erik strongly believes skill/athletic ability are why someone does or does not show up in the biggest moments  and I used Tiger Woods and Brooks Koepka as examples of guys/instances that point in opposition to that. 
 

if it makes you feel any better I also recognize Tiger Woods to have the most dominant run in golf history. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Lefty_3Jack

[JayMas]

I personally think people undervalue the mental gains that will happen as a result of working on your core motion/swing mechanics. Confidence in the core swing is going to lead to a better mental state, better decision making, and better misses that don't take as much of a toll.

[Petethreeput]

I think the mental part of the game improves as the physical side improves, and that is why the pros spend so much time practicing.

If you read Rotella he has his new folks looking back at the successes, the more success you have the easier it is to have a positive mindset.

If you practice like the pros, you don't have to worry about the physical and then you can "take dead aim"- Penick, or "aim small miss small"- everyone in target sports, and that is your focus.

 

During a mid-life crisis I had some time and I practiced a lot and I took a buddies sports psychology class and my handicap dropped 7 strokes in about 4 months.  Was it the practice or the class?  I don't know for sure, but having reverted back to my "playing not to lose" rather than "playing to win" I am back up to a 4 handicap.

[MelloYello]

54 minutes ago, Lefty_3Jack said:

I am the OP and it was in response to others who brought up your players duty Tiger being one of them. My OP was asking others if they have made big strides in scores after focusing on the mental portion of the game. 

 

 

Hahaha, well, in that case my bad. My apologies!

 

I think TW is a terrible example though and I can easily show why. His dedication was relentless. Nobody doubts that. 

 

But dedication cannot be inserted as a synonym for "mental game" because your original question would be absurd: Anyone here completely change their game through increased dedication?

 

That question answers itself!

 

If you're talking about the mental game, that has to be separated from sheer effort or dedication, else the question is meaningless. 

[MelloYello]

19 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

I think the mental part of the game improves as the physical side improves, and that is why the pros spend so much time practicing.

If you read Rotella he has his new folks looking back at the successes, the more success you have the easier it is to have a positive mindset.

If you practice like the pros, you don't have to worry about the physical and then you can "take dead aim"- Penick, or "aim small miss small"- everyone in target sports, and that is your focus.

 

During a mid-life crisis I had some time and I practiced a lot and I took a buddies sports psychology class and my handicap dropped 7 strokes in about 4 months.  Was it the practice or the class?  I don't know for sure, but having reverted back to my "playing not to lose" rather than "playing to win" I am back up to a 4 handicap.

 

The OP is seemingly asking if anyone has ever seen big gains without increasing how much they play and practice though. 

 

If it's merely "mental" as some suggest then it stands to reason that some people can shift their thinking and simply start posting better scores without the increased practice & play. 

 

Show me someone who's done that and I'll be pretty impressed!

 

There are a million people who went through periods of increased play who saw their dedication result in better scores. That's totally natural. 

 

But c'mon, we're all waiting to see the guy who flipped a mental switch and suddenly started doing stuff he wasn't before (without increasing his golf schedule). 

[NoTalentLefty]

Well to the OP: I practice less than ever but practice my putting on a carpet at home. Golf once a week. Read articles and watch videos on the golf swing. I’ve lowered my hcin by 3 . Slowed my tempo down to the point of being accused of looking like a turtle when walking. FYI: I still play fast over the ball and usually can put distance between the group im in and the group behind us. But saying this I’ll never be below a 10 ever again. Practice will always help as long as it’s directed at a goal and I just don’t care to anymore. 

[Petethreeput]

33 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

The OP is seemingly asking if anyone has ever seen big gains without increasing how much they play and practice though. 

 

If it's merely "mental" as some suggest then it stands to reason that some people can shift their thinking and simply start posting better scores without the increased practice & play. 

 

Show me someone who's done that and I'll be pretty impressed!

 

There are a million people who went through periods of increased play who saw their dedication result in better scores. That's totally natural. 

 

But c'mon, we're all waiting to see the guy who flipped a mental switch and suddenly started doing stuff he wasn't before (without increasing his golf schedule). 

To answer that question, and he does reference a person being in the zone or playing without distractions, and yes I think you can make a difference in the score.  It is a weird thing and the way he asks it, yes you can lower the score.  The question is, how do you get to that point of being in the moment and playing at a higher level than before.  Afterall, isn't being in the zone simply feeling like you can't miss?  And doesn't that happen because the recent past has proven this to be true.

 

Of course, implied in this is a fairly repeatable swing and a modicum of skill.

 

EDIT:  each person gets into the zone differently.  Some by being happy, or angry, or sad, or whatever.  The class was discussing the act of getting there before the actual event started.  I do think you can lower the score a little, but the limits are clearly applied to their physical skill level.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Petethreeput

[pappaf2]

@MelloYello had a good comment about avoiding a one size fits all solution to mental game. 
not sure if it was mentioned it this thread but Mental Golf Type has an interesting more personalized approach to the metal game. It basically starts with a Myer’s Briggs type personality test and says that based on your type you need to approach the mental game in a way that’s different than someone else that is a different type. 
 

https://www.mentalgolftype.com
 

I haven’t subscribed to a plan but have put some of the ideas into practice that I gleaned from listening to a bunch of the podcasts. I have found it to be really good stuff and Ive seen improvement using it. Worth looking into as an option IMO

Edited June 20, 2023 by pappaf2

[RoyalTroon]

29 minutes ago, Petethreeput said:

To answer that question, and he does reference a person being in the zone or playing without distractions, and yes I think you can make a difference in the score...Of course, implied in this is a fairly repeatable swing and a modicum of skill.

 

Skill 'ye must have to follow the lead of the inner eye and give in to de glimmer that suddenly appears...

Edited June 20, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[MoneyMan300]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

 

The OP is seemingly asking if anyone has ever seen big gains without increasing how much they play and practice though. 

 

If it's merely "mental" as some suggest then it stands to reason that some people can shift their thinking and simply start posting better scores without the increased practice & play. 

 

Show me someone who's done that and I'll be pretty impressed!

 

There are a million people who went through periods of increased play who saw their dedication result in better scores. That's totally natural. 

 

But c'mon, we're all waiting to see the guy who flipped a mental switch and suddenly started doing stuff he wasn't before (without increasing his golf schedule). 

If you consider course strategy as a part of the mental game, then yes, almost all amateurs would lower their scores with nothing but better course management.

[MelloYello]

8 minutes ago, MoneyMan300 said:

If you consider course strategy as a part of the mental game, then yes, almost all amateurs would lower their scores with nothing but better course management.

 

Well, I guess it's settled then. 

 

Thanks for letting me know! 🙂

[MoneyMan300]

6 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Well, I guess it's settled then. 

 

Thanks for letting me know! 🙂

 

Judging by your HDCP you are a much better player than myself, so this is something you already knew.   I was just answering the first part of your response. 

 

I also believe that the mental approach can only take you so far.   I look at it this way, your mental game can take you to the top of whatever your physical capability is.