Match play order of play queston

[Nels55]

I play quite often in a team match play format that incudes a better ball and two individual matches going on simultaneously.  We have always played that the team that is away could have either player hit or putt. 

 

Well, in a match last Saturday with a team from another course our team (player A)  was away and decided to have the player who was closer to the hole (player B) putt first.  Player C who was on the other team and in an individual match with player B objected to this since player B was closer to the hole then he was.  In all the years that I have played these matches this has never come up.  So I wonder it it is even covered by the rules?  LOL I could not find it.  These are NCGA matches so I guess that I can ask them if no one here knows... 

[goaliedad30]

I've played in lots of those NCGA matches with the "2 singles and a four ball" format. The general model used (and I'm not a rules expert), has been that as long as the four-ball match is active, four-ball match play rules govern (and thus the "team" that's away determines order of play). Once the team match has ended, now singles rules apply (including that you may no longer provide advice to your fellow team member (since you're no longer a "side").

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I play quite often in a team match play format that incudes a better ball and two individual matches going on simultaneously.  We have always played that the team that is away could have either player hit or putt. 

 

Well, in a match last Saturday with a team from another course our team (player A)  was away and decided to have the player who was closer to the hole (player B) putt first.  Player C who was on the other team and in an individual match with player B objected to this since player B was closer to the hole then he was.  In all the years that I have played these matches this has never come up.  So I wonder it it is even covered by the rules?  LOL I could not find it.  These are NCGA matches so I guess that I can ask them if no one here knows... 

If you are mixing formats like this, you are pretty well on your own  as far as the Rules are concerned.  Do what goaliedad30 has described: decide before the game which rules take precedence and play to that.

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, goaliedad30 said:

I've played in lots of those NCGA matches with the "2 singles and a four ball" format. The general model used (and I'm not a rules expert), has been that as long as the four-ball match is active, four-ball match play rules govern (and thus the "team" that's away determines order of play). Once the team match has ended, now singles rules apply (including that you may no longer provide advice to your fellow team member (since you're no longer a "side").

 

Jumping a bit off the topic but team is not the same as side. From the Definition:

 

"A side is not the same as a team. In a team competition, each team consists of players competing as individuals or as sides."

 

This is important as partners playing as a side may give advice to each other while team members may not if they are not playind as sides to each other at the same time.

[Nels55]

Thanks guys!  The answer make sense and as I mentioned is how we have always played it. 

 

Another question comes to mind:  Anytime my side is away and we might want to have the closer player putt first we will not do it if the player has to stand in an opponents line.  That seems like common courtesy but I wonder if there is any rule to that effect?

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Thanks guys!  The answer make sense and as I mentioned is how we have always played it. 

 

Another question comes to mind:  Anytime my side is away and we might want to have the closer player putt first we will not do it if the player has to stand in an opponents line.  That seems like common courtesy but I wonder if there is any rule to that effect?

 

There is no Rule against it but is common courtesy (read: Etiquette of Golf).

[Augster]

9 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Thanks guys!  The answer make sense and as I mentioned is how we have always played it. 

 

Another question comes to mind:  Anytime my side is away and we might want to have the closer player putt first we will not do it if the player has to stand in an opponents line.  That seems like common courtesy but I wonder if there is any rule to that effect?

Common courtesy but we do it all the time in match play. In match play the opponents can concede the putt to NOT have their line trampled. Gamesmanship. 
 

Best ball stroke play, we won’t do it as there are no concessions. 

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

Common courtesy but we do it all the time in match play. In match play the opponents can concede the putt to NOT have their line trampled. Gamesmanship. 

 

That is lame. Nothing to do with gentlemen.

[Augster]

16 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That is lame. Nothing to do with gentlemen.

I disagree. If an opponent doesn’t want me or my partner standing on his line, they always have the option of conceding the putt. 
 

If my partner has a 3-footer for par and I have a 12 footer for birdie, and my partner has to stand on an opponents line, he’s putting out first 100% of the time. 
 

We’ll give the opponent the chance to concede the putt. I’m not 3-putting that 12-footer ever anyway and they should know that, and recognize that, and concede the 3-footer. If they don’t concede it, it’s on them what happens to their line. 
 

This gamesmanship worked way better before players could fix any damage on the greens. 
 

The gamesmanship of standing on a persons line still works if you read the “grinds your gears” thread. Before that thread I didn’t realize how many headcases there are playing golf. Because of that thread I’ve added at least a dozen new things I can do on a course to mess with my opponents. 

[Mr. Bean]

11 minutes ago, Augster said:

I disagree. If an opponent doesn’t want me or my partner standing on his line, they always have the option of conceding the putt. 
 

If my partner has a 3-footer for par and I have a 12 footer for birdie, and my partner has to stand on an opponents line, he’s putting out first 100% of the time. 

 

Yeah, but if that shorter putt is a 6-footer the situation is way different.

 

Forcing the other party to concede by stepping on their line of putt is simply unsportsmanlike.

[Augster]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Yeah, but if that shorter putt is a 6-footer the situation is way different.

 

Forcing the other party to concede by stepping on their line of putt is simply unsportsmanlike.

No different. I’m never 3-putting my 12-footer. My opponents have the ability to avoid my partner stepping on their line. Just say “that’s good”. Faster pace of play. More situational awareness. 
 

Now when I have 50 feet and my partner has 3 feet, the opponents are in a bind. They really can’t concede the 3-footer as my partner is likely to miss it at least 25% of the time and I’m going to 3-putt about 33% of the time.  So he’s putting first and we’re praying they concede it. 
 

50-feet and 6-feet? I’m just rolling mine up and hopefully both our putts will be inside their putts so we can watch and know what we have to do. Give them a chance to choke. 
 

We can agree to disagree on the “unsportsmanlike”. If we’re playing well within the Rules, that’s “sportsmanlike” enough for me. 

[Nels55]

@Augster intentionally stepping in someone's line as a gamesmanship ploy is incomprehensible to me.  I would never do that and I don't know anyone who would.  LOL not even the guys around here who are known for being outright cheats would do that.  Golf is supposed to be a game of respect and integrity.  That said I guess that if it is the norm in your neck of the wood then okay, whatever.  LOL I do know some guys that you might not want to try it on though...

[Colin L]

6 hours ago, Augster said:

I disagree. If an opponent doesn’t want me or my partner standing on his line, they always have the option of conceding the putt. 
 

If my partner has a 3-footer for par and I have a 12 footer for birdie, and my partner has to stand on an opponents line, he’s putting out first 100% of the time. 
 

We’ll give the opponent the chance to concede the putt. I’m not 3-putting that 12-footer ever anyway and they should know that, and recognize that, and concede the 3-footer. If they don’t concede it, it’s on them what happens to their line. 
 

This gamesmanship worked way better before players could fix any damage on the greens. 
 

The gamesmanship of standing on a persons line still works if you read the “grinds your gears” thread. Before that thread I didn’t realize how many headcases there are playing golf. Because of that thread I’ve added at least a dozen new things I can do on a course to mess with my opponents. 

It's a long step from accepting that sometimes in matchplay you cannot avoid having to stand on an opponent's line of play to deliberately choosing to play the shorter putt first in the hope (or worse, with the intention) of damaging it.  

 

I'm glad I don't play golf at the level of competitiveness that somehow justifies that sort of thinking.

[Newby]

7 hours ago, Augster said:

I disagree. If an opponent doesn’t want me or my partner standing on his line, they always have the option of conceding the putt. 
 

If my partner has a 3-footer for par and I have a 12 footer for birdie, and my partner has to stand on an opponents line, he’s putting out first 100% of the time. 
 

We’ll give the opponent the chance to concede the putt. I’m not 3-putting that 12-footer ever anyway and they should know that, and recognize that, and concede the 3-footer. If they don’t concede it, it’s on them what happens to their line. 
 

This gamesmanship worked way better before players could fix any damage on the greens. 
 

The gamesmanship of standing on a persons line still works if you read the “grinds your gears” thread. Before that thread I didn’t realize how many headcases there are playing golf. Because of that thread I’ve added at least a dozen new things I can do on a course to mess with my opponents. 

Are really saying that you would step on an opponents line in order to damage it or at least give that impression to the opponent?

Why not simply suggest they may like to putt first?

[North Texas]

15 hours ago, Nels55 said:

@Augster intentionally stepping in someone's line as a gamesmanship ploy is incomprehensible to me.  I would never do that and I don't know anyone who would.  LOL not even the guys around here who are known for being outright cheats would do that.  Golf is supposed to be a game of respect and integrity.  That said I guess that if it is the norm in your neck of the wood then okay, whatever.  LOL I do know some guys that you might not want to try it on though...

 

Agreed.

 

Of course, I never have understood why gamesmanship is even acceptable. But that's just me. 

[Nels55]

36 minutes ago, North Texas said:

 

Agreed.

 

Of course, I never have understood why gamesmanship is even acceptable. But that's just me. 

I believe that this is bit beyond gamesmanship and if someone did intentionally step or threaten to step in an opponents line to try to get a putt conceded in an organized competition it would be grounds for disqualification.  Outside the spirit of the game.  If it is just the same guys playing a weekly match and they all do it to each other then it does not really matter at all. 

[Mr. Bean]

56 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I believe that this is bit beyond gamesmanship and if someone did intentionally step or threaten to step in an opponents line to try to get a putt conceded in an organized competition it would be grounds for disqualification.  Outside the spirit of the game.  If it is just the same guys playing a weekly match and they all do it to each other then it does not really matter at all. 

 

Well,  "threatening" to step on other player's line of play can simply be "I believe I need to step on your line unless you want to concede my putt". That is no grounds for any disciplinary action, IMO. However, if that "threat" is made in a manner that gives reason to believe stepping would be done in a manner that could harm the putting green on that line it might be a different story.

 

The way I see it there should always be another way to solve that situation in a decent manner. Deliberate stepping on other player's line of play is simply rude.

[Noles]

23 hours ago, Augster said:

I disagree. If an opponent doesn’t want me or my partner standing on his line, they always have the option of conceding the putt. 
 

If my partner has a 3-footer for par and I have a 12 footer for birdie, and my partner has to stand on an opponents line, he’s putting out first 100% of the time. 
 

We’ll give the opponent the chance to concede the putt. I’m not 3-putting that 12-footer ever anyway and they should know that, and recognize that, and concede the 3-footer. If they don’t concede it, it’s on them what happens to their line. 
 

This gamesmanship worked way better before players could fix any damage on the greens. 
 

The gamesmanship of standing on a persons line still works if you read the “grinds your gears” thread. Before that thread I didn’t realize how many headcases there are playing golf. Because of that thread I’ve added at least a dozen new things I can do on a course to mess with my opponents. 

There would be a gigantic heal print in your line before you could get that putt off.

[Augster]

19 hours ago, Colin L said:

It's a long step from accepting that sometimes in matchplay you cannot avoid having to stand on an opponent's line of play to deliberately choosing to play the shorter putt first in the hope (or worse, with the intention) of damaging it.  

 

I'm glad I don't play golf at the level of competitiveness that somehow justifies that sort of thinking.

Intentionally damaging another player’s line is psycho. That’s not what this is. 
 

What I am describing is playing the short ball first. As Newby says below, we always ask the opponent if he’d like to play first, thereby giving my partner a free read. Most will decline. At that point we’d say, “He’s going to finish out his par putt before I putt and he’ll likely be standing on your line. Just FYI.” They can concede the putt at that point. After they’ve declined to give us a free read, and declined to concede the short putt, then my partner steps into his putt normally and putts out. 
 

It’s all done “gentlemanly”. The opponents are well aware that we’ll be standing on their line. 
 

I weigh 250. Most of my partners weigh 200+. There’s no reason to “damage” the line when taking the stance. Unless the greens are extremely firm, there’s likely going to be very minor foot indentations from weight 3 feet out from the hole. 
 

It’s all legal and all done gentlemanly. 

[Augster]

17 hours ago, Newby said:

Are really saying that you would step on an opponents line in order to damage it or at least give that impression to the opponent?

Why not simply suggest they may like to putt first?

We always ask if they’d like to putt first giving us a free read. Most often they’ll say no. 
 

Damaging a line intentionally is ridiculous. But weight may put indentations in the line based on the softness of the greens. AND, based on the other thread, a LOT of golfers lose their minds if someone accidentally steps on their line. Those golfers will certainly have to think about it. 

[Colin L]

34 minutes ago, Augster said:

Intentionally damaging another player’s line is psycho. That’s not what this is. 
 

What I am describing is playing the short ball first. As Newby says below, we always ask the opponent if he’d like to play first, thereby giving my partner a free read. Most will decline. At that point we’d say, “He’s going to finish out his par putt before I putt and he’ll likely be standing on your line. Just FYI.” They can concede the putt at that point. After they’ve declined to give us a free read, and declined to concede the short putt, then my partner steps into his putt normally and putts out. 
 

It’s all done “gentlemanly”. The opponents are well aware that we’ll be standing on their line. 
 

I weigh 250. Most of my partners weigh 200+. There’s no reason to “damage” the line when taking the stance. Unless the greens are extremely firm, there’s likely going to be very minor foot indentations from weight 3 feet out from the hole. 
 

It’s all legal and all done gentlemanly. 

That clears that up then. And it's not as it seemed from earlier accounts but I must have misread.