Conflicting views of the right elbow in the downswing

[Kenjr1969]

Hey all, something that continues to confuse me is the correct movement of the right elbow in the downswing. AMG who I do like says that in the downswing the right arm will straighten as the arms drop. They specifically say that there should be no driving of the right elbow in front of the body. They also say there should be no effort to swing the arms purposefully in front of the body. Others, including Monte whose teaching style I also like, has said in some you tube videos from years ago that there is a purposeful driving of the right elbow. This is where I am confused. Am i incorrectly inferring what AMG is saying? I would like to hear what others do in their swings with that trail arm. 

[iacas]

Both can work. They generally require different trail side bend rates.

 

I will add that extending your trail elbow moves it (and your hands) back “in front.” Getting stuck almost requires a bent trail elbow.

[Elkhair]

Monte use to advocate driving of the right elbow in the downswing. "chasing the belly button." I dont think this is a good idea anymore. 

[Kuuuch]

Speculating here bc I’m not instructor but I think both can be good depending on the player. For example, I was once too narrow on the downswing so I worked on removing some of my trail arm bend. That got my hands more in front but they were still trailing bc of how fast my hips are. I then worked on speeding the arms up/getting them in front while maintaining width.

 

Def could “feel” the right elbow/arms getting more in front but I wasn’t driving the right elbow to my right hip/belly button which imo that feel alone can easily get you narrow. 

could be a case of feel vs real but my .02

[Kuuuch]

Here’s a good one on the topic 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cpbr0yBPdjp/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[MPStrat]

The big problem with driving the elbow and why AMG doesn’t like it is that it encourages the player to drive their trail arm across their body using too much independent arm motion to get the club to the ball. If that happens the body will freeze to allow the arms to the job. It’s a big reason why amateurs don’t rotate. Not because of a limitation, because their arms do the job their body should be doing and it becomes a mess. 
 

. 

[golfarb1]

The movement  of the trail  elbow going down 

Is dependent on the position of the right elbow at the top . The more “ internal” ( flying ) the trail elbow at the top (like Jack Nicklaus )  the more right shoulder external rotation  and trail elbow rotation is required going down .  Those who are closer to the “waiters tray “ position at the top like Tiger, have little if any need for such movements .

[MonteScheinblum]

4 hours ago, Elkhair said:

Monte use to advocate driving of the right elbow in the downswing. "chasing the belly button." I dont think this is a good idea anymore. 

For some it is, for some it isn’t

[Zitlow]

Isolating the right arm motion isn't a good idea. The right arm is blended and synchronized with the rest of the parts synergistically.  

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

The big problem with driving the elbow and why AMG doesn’t like it is that it encourages the player to drive their trail arm across their body using too much independent arm motion to get the club to the ball. If that happens the body will freeze to allow the arms to the job. It’s a big reason why amateurs don’t rotate. Not because of a limitation, because their arms do the job their body should be doing and it becomes a mess. 
 

. 

It isn't only driving the right elbow, In an effort to get down to the ball they swing the right arm independently from the shoulder. They end up hitting the ball off the front of their body instead of the side.  

 

Shoulder leads the arm. 

 

 

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

14 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

It isn't only driving the right elbow, In an effort to get down to the ball they swing the right arm independently from the shoulder. They end up hitting the ball off the front of their body instead of the side.  

 

Shoulder leads the arm. 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. I will add that this relationship often reaches the point of no return in the backswing for some. 

[North Butte]

I had a lesson last year and noticed my elbow getting away from my body on the backswing and kind of staying out there through the downswing. I asked my golf coach if that was a problem. The convo was something like this...

 

ME: "Isn't that elbow supposed to be in a little closer in the downswing?"

HIM: "Well yeah, that would be ideal."

ME: "So I guess I need to pull it in as I start the downswing."

HIM: "No, you'll cause all kinds of trouble by trying to force that". 

ME: "What should I do?"

HIM: "Don't worry about it. Do the stuff we're working on and it will take care of itself."

 

So I guess I've got that goin' for me.

[Zitlow]

31 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

Absolutely. I will add that this relationship often reaches the point of no return in the backswing for some. 

I reached the point of no return at address with my death grip 2000 right hand grip. 

[moehogan]

Instead of focusing on driving the right elbow, I start to wind the entire right arm clockwise (from my perspective) in the 2nd half of the BS (P2.5ish). Any earlier can get the club rolled too far inside. Maxing the winding out by P4-5 results in an externally right shoulder and a supinated right forearm.

 

I keep that winding as the right arm starts to unfold, traveling out, down and forward in the DS until delivery (P6) when the clubhead starts to tip out. The right forearm returns to neutral by P7 as PP#s 1 & 3 drive the handle up and left to the follow through and finish.

 

Sorry for all the TGM shorthand!

 

In simplest terms, it’s sort of like throwing a submarine baseball pitch.

[North Butte]

36 minutes ago, moehogan said:

In simplest terms, it’s sort of like throwing a submarine baseball pitch.

I played once with a guy who used to be a pretty high level competitive bowler. You can definitely catch a hint of that bowler move where they turn the ball over with their wrist right before they release it (do they call that a hook?) in his right arm action. Kind of like those ex-baseball player golfers who always seem to have a little bit of a baseball hitter's weight shift in their swing.

[jonsnow]

2 hours ago, moehogan said:

Instead of focusing on driving the right elbow, I start to wind the entire right arm clockwise (from my perspective) in the 2nd half of the BS (P2.5ish). Any earlier can get the club rolled too far inside. Maxing the winding out by P4-5 results in an externally right shoulder and a supinated right forearm.

 

I keep that winding as the right arm starts to unfold, traveling out, down and forward in the DS until delivery (P6) when the clubhead starts to tip out. The right forearm returns to neutral by P7 as PP#s 1 & 3 drive the handle up and left to the follow through and finish.

 

Sorry for all the TGM shorthand!

 

In simplest terms, it’s sort of like throwing a submarine baseball pitch.

No trying to be a smarta** (for once), but are you saying you can monitor all these things during a swing? 

[moehogan]

5 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

No trying to be a smarta** (for once), but are you saying you can monitor all these things during a swing? 

I don’t need to monitor them as they were installed many years ago and are part of my swing DNA. It’s all motivated by my right hand.
 

The grip pressures are built in at address and just maintained throughout the swing. The CW right arm winding requires some training as it’s somewhat counterintuitive. I call it the “reverse arm circle “ as it’s a similar motion to the calisthenic. I can still hear my football and rugby coaches calling out “ARM CIRCLES“ and then at some point shouting “REVERSE ‘EM”! 😂

 

 

[jonsnow]

11 minutes ago, moehogan said:

I don’t need to monitor them as they were installed many years ago and are part of my swing DNA. It’s all motivated by my right hand.
 

The grip pressures are built in at address and just maintained throughout the swing. The CW right arm winding requires some training as it’s somewhat counterintuitive. I call it the “reverse arm circle “ as it’s a similar motion to the calisthenic. I can still hear my football and rugby coaches calling out “ARM CIRCLES“ and then at some point shouting “REVERSE ‘EM”! 😂

 

 

Thanks for the reply. It was a legitimate question. 

[moehogan]

“When I describe a golf shot and gesture with one of my hands, it's always the right hand I gesture with. That's because golf is a right-handed game [for right-handers], not a left-handed game as some people believe. Hogan was emphatic about that. The right hand controls the position of the clubface, generates the speed, applies the touch, everything. All the left hand does is hold on to the club, and hopefully not break down on the downswing.”

 

- Ken Venturi

[Nels55]

I recall from watching a Mike Adams video that the trail elbow movement is dependent on the trail hand grip.  A cover grip will end up with elbow back more coming into the ball and an under grip will end up with the trail elbow more forward seeking the navel or whatever.  In between grips will vary accordingly.

[moehogan]

2 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

I recall from watching a Mike Adams video that the trail elbow movement is dependent on the trail hand grip.  A cover grip will end up with elbow back more coming into the ball and an under grip will end up with the trail elbow more forward seeking the navel or whatever.  In between grips will vary accordingly.

A stronger (more under) right hand grip will preset rotation of the right arm more clockwise. 
 

Hold your right arm out in front of you with your thumb pointing up in a neutral position. Rotate the ENTIRE arm clockwise (thumb pointing right) and the elbow will move towards the torso. Rotate it counterclockwise (thumb pointing left) and the elbow will move away from the torso.
 

It’s all easily motivated by the right hand ‘s hold on the club.